The Official Manhunter Thread

It's a pretty simple trick. Lord killing Ted was one of the things that lead to his death. If the defense tries to use this as just cause or whatever, well, it would be kinda hard to do seeing as Ted's alive and well. It's a trick set up by whoever the f**k is trying to bring Diana down. (And I suspect it's Max.) I haven't even read it yet and I figured that out.
 
I just can't get over how cheesy that last line was.

i mean, seriously? "you look like you've seen a ghost hurhurrr"

More like Bwahahaha. Come on it's a classic Giffen-esque line, exactly what Ted would say.

Speaking of naive...I haven't read this issue, but I'm at once disappointed and disgruntled to hear that Wonder Woman has been made into a naive, ignorant foreigner again. She's supposed to be more savvy about the ways of the world than most people in the world are. Why can't people just read Rucka's run on her? Seriously, why can't they just do that? Or, failing that, couldn't they read at least a little of Jimenez's? Or, hey, even just anything from her solo series in the last five years? I know, I'm just talking crazy now right?

She didn't come across as that naive; the only times were when she said the American justice system was confusing and then she was a little shocked by the force of the LA press. Both of which I think anyone not familiar with those two things would be put off by, she isn't a lawyer so why would she be really savvy in it? (if she was why would she hire a lawyer in the first place?). Granted I wish everyone wrote Wonder Woman like Rucka (which still remains the only time when I could read her) but it's not a horrible characterization.

It's a pretty simple trick. Lord killing Ted was one of the things that lead to his death. If the defense tries to use this as just cause or whatever, well, it would be kinda hard to do seeing as Ted's alive and well. It's a trick set up by whoever the f**k is trying to bring Diana down. (And I suspect it's Max.) I haven't even read it yet and I figured that out.

If Max is behind this... I'd actually really like that.
 
she isn't a lawyer so why would she be really savvy in it? (if she was why would she hire a lawyer in the first place?).

Actually, there's an old addage: "Only a fool represents himself in court." You're just too personally atached.
 
She didn't come across as that naive; the only times were when she said the American justice system was confusing and then she was a little shocked by the force of the LA press. Both of which I think anyone not familiar with those two things would be put off by, she isn't a lawyer so why would she be really savvy in it? (if she was why would she hire a lawyer in the first place?). Granted I wish everyone wrote Wonder Woman like Rucka (which still remains the only time when I could read her) but it's not a horrible characterization.
Eh. Again, I'm saying this as someone who hasn't read the issue yet, but if she had said something like "Retail is so confusing!" I could understand it, since it's actually something that she has no experience with. I think WW would be more familiar with American law than even most Americans, considering that her former title as a political figure constantly put her in a position of dealing with laws, particularly US laws. Of course she's not nearly as proficient as a trained lawyer and would still need one in a case like this to help her through, but she's not someone who'd be like "What? Courtrooms? Juries? Lawyers? Wow! You silly Americans are so full of silly ideas!"

I'm exaggerating, I hope.
 
Eh. Again, I'm saying this as someone who hasn't read the issue yet, but if she had said something like "Retail is so confusing!" I could understand it, since it's actually something that she has no experience with. I think WW would be more familiar with American law than even most Americans, considering that her former title as a political figure constantly put her in a position of dealing with laws, particularly US laws. Of course she's not nearly as proficient as a trained lawyer and would still need one in a case like this to help her through, but she's not someone who'd be like "What? Courtrooms? Juries? Lawyers? Wow! You silly Americans are so full of silly ideas!"

I'm exaggerating, I hope.

So, wait. You're complaining about her characterization in a book you haven't even read yet? You do realize that most Wonder Woman fans are pointing to her portrayal in Manhunter as the way to write the character, right?

I mean, if I'm going to complain about a book, at least I'll buy the damn thing and read it, instead of basing my opinions on a 2 page scan posted on some random internet forum. But see, I'm a little kooky, what with the common sense and all.
 
Unlike most folks though, BrianWilly is man enough to point out that he hasn't read the issue, and that he hopes he's wrong, but from what he's heard from other posters (such as me, who thought Wondy came off a little naive-ish) he isn't liking it. Notice also, the use of the words: yet, exaggerate, I hope.

In other words: Take a chill pill LT.
 
Eh. Everything I've commented on is based directly off of people's comments. If I'm misinterpreting what they're describing or if my responses are flawed, feel free to correct me. It's not like I'm commenting on the actual story, just one piece of it that was -- again -- described to me by other posters. I don't have to read a story in which Batman sings Kelly Clarkson to know that Batman singing Kelly Clarkson is awkward. Just like I don't have to read a story in which Wonder Woman is confused about laws to know that she shouldn't be confused about laws.

You're going to have to introduce me to these Wonder Woman fans who are falling head over heels for Andreyko's take on her. I read Diana's appearance in Manhunter #26, and while it was perfectly enjoyable and much better than some others I've read, it's hardly what I would call "the" way of writing the character. For one thing, I notice that yet again they couldn't find anything for her to do other than to spar with another hero. Because this is a woman who only knows how to fight, right? If I'm oversensitive about how Wonder Woman is portrayed, I have good reason.
 
Eh. Again, I'm saying this as someone who hasn't read the issue yet, but if she had said something like "Retail is so confusing!" I could understand it, since it's actually something that she has no experience with. I think WW would be more familiar with American law than even most Americans, considering that her former title as a political figure constantly put her in a position of dealing with laws, particularly US laws. Of course she's not nearly as proficient as a trained lawyer and would still need one in a case like this to help her through, but she's not someone who'd be like "What? Courtrooms? Juries? Lawyers? Wow! You silly Americans are so full of silly ideas!"

I'm exaggerating, I hope.

It's defiantly not as bad as you are worrying it is, it's not perfect characterization and she is coming across a little naive but it's not like she is acting like she is from 800BC and a complete fish out of water.

To explain the scenes;

In the courtroom she says to Kate "surely it doesn't make sense to anger the judge" and then Kate explains she did it so the Judge would forget to tell the Jury to disregard what she was saying, to plant seeds of doubt.

Then later on they are having coffee and Wonder Woman says that the press shouldn't be interested in them because they aren't doing anything interesting - like a press conference or etc.

Nothing, I think anyway, to be annoyed about. But as I have said before I'm not a great knowledge on her character.
 
See, now that makes a lot more sense. She's not confused about the law itself, just the way someone deals with it.

And I can definitely see the paparazzi scene happening. WW often gets flustered by the media going all the way back to Perez, and is constantly wondering why they don't have their priorities straighter.

Now I can sleep easier
rcain.gif
. I still worry about the whole being naive thing though, but as long as it isn't like "TEEHEE maths is hard!" it shouldn't be a problem...
 
Well, the fact is that you're going to have to learn some self-respect for yourself before I can stop, y'know, hating your people.[/Sarah Silverman]
 
You just hate all women from "The Mascara"
 
I don't know who they are but if they're butt-ass ugly then yes, I do hate them.
 
Okay, so I actually got around to reading this issue today, and, well...I have to take back what I said earlier.

Wonder Woman doesn't come off as naive in this. Nope.

She comes off as an utter airhead. Andreyko literally wrote her like she just stepped off the boat into the country. That might have been at the end of Perez's arc in the 80s or something, but these days it's just seriously off.

The scene in the courtroom...I can maybe stretch my tolerance and get that WW's just never seen a lawyer as slick and savvy as Kate in action, and doesn't get her tactics. But the whole "American justice system is so confusing!" angle still seem totally off. She should be one of the characters with the most understanding of the American justice system. Not to mention the wisdom of the gods capable of doing so. When Kate told her of her strategy, Diana should have nodded and absorbed it, fascinated...not gone "Durrrrr...what?"

Then the paparazzi; she wasn't just bewildered that they were taking pictures of her doing nothing, it seemed to me like she had absolutely no idea that they took pictures at all. It was like, "What? Photographers? Why are they here?" She's been in America for more than ten years now, and has been one of the most highly publicized figures in the world, and unlike a lot of other heroes she actively indulges in that sort of publicity. The idea that she's never encountered paparazzi before in her life and work is just absurd.

And then comes the most cringeworthy moment of the issue, where WW tells Kate how much easier it is when she's fighting Darkseid or some supervillain and how she likes to see the world as right or wrong, black or white. What? Seriously, what? That's just...WHAT?? I mean, my goodness, you only need to read the whole "Sacrifice" incident with Max Lord to get that WW's worldviews are anything, anything but "black and white!" Enough that the man seems to have never read a single Wonder Woman issue in his life, but considering that "Sacrifice" is what this entire arc is supposed to be about you'd think that at least he'd have an okay grasp on that! In dealing with politics, Diana has an intricate understanding of how complicated the world can be. In dealing with people like Superman and Batman, she's more than experienced with conflicting and often complicated philosophical views on morality. She's not a "there's no shades of gray!" character. She can be more understanding than Clark, and more ruthless than Bruce. That duality and contradiction is exactly what makes the character, and it goes back to even before the post-Crisis Perez take on her!

Wonder Woman then proceeds to face the photographers and news reporters with about as much grace as a deer caught in headlights might muster, as opposed to someone who's been shown doing this sort of thing for more than ten years. Which she has.

And finally, Diana's reaction to the prosecutor..."Why does he hate me? He seemed so nice when I met him before!" Dear Buddha...of all characters, Diana should have the least amount of illusions about how hypocritical people can be. She should have no illusions whatsoever about how other people think of her. And she should be amongst the most capable of "reading" other people's reactions. This has been shown time and time again.

Look, Wonder Woman is worldly, not naive. She's complicated, not simple. As good a writer as Andreyko is -- and, believe it or not, I actually enjoy Manhunter as a series quite a bit -- he obviously doesn't get that. I have no idea who these Wonder Woman fans are that apparently like to see her get written in a mix between "Durr...math is hard!" and "Huh? Wha?" expressions, but count me firmly out of that number.

[/nerd RAGE]
 
I think that another reason this issue makes me so twitchy is that the case in question just gets more and more absurd. The whole threat of the death penalty thing last issue was laughable enough, since it was about as likely to happen as Supergirl is likely to not suck, but this?

Okay, let's forget for the moment that, according to 52, people in the world knew exactly what happened in Sacrifice, why WW did what she did, and had forgiven her for it. Let's just forget about that for a moment, since that happened in a really recent issue and it's completely possible those writers didn't make it clear enough to Andreyko before this, even though it seems like it would be common sense anyway.

But let's look at the evidence in just this series alone. The World Court had exonerated Wonder Woman. Okay. Obviously, that means they had evidence to show that she was acting in self-defense, or else why the heck would they suddenly not care anymore? This evidence is plainly available to government officials, since Nemesis over in the actual Wonder Woman book was aware of it. The U.S. government itself is obviously aware of it, since they knew about Checkmate's corruption last year and, by now, know the details of Max Lord's plans.

So...why aren't ordinary people aware of it, too, as the writers of 52 obviously and logically depicted?

This sort of information wouldn't be made publicly available? Okay, so it has to do with top secret government business or whatever. The US government obviously might object to its citizens finding out that a head agent, Max Lord, was actually a corrupt supervillain. So let's agree that, despite this being a highly publicized and shockingly worldwide incident that everyone was talking about and demanding answers to, the US government just somehow managed to hush things up anyway. Y'know, even in other countries. Somehow.

But then...why the heck is there even a trial, though?

The government knows she was acting in self-defense. They know that there is evidence against Max. They've seen it. They know that, in conducting this trial, they are far more likely to lose than otherwise since they know that the charges aren't valid. So why is there even a trial? They might be just pissed that she killed an agent and want some revenge. But they know they don't have a case. Do they just think that the evidence just somehow magically disappeared or something? Do they somehow think that the defense is just somehow not going to present the evidence that they know exists?

Come to think of it, Kate is a smart lawyer, one of the best in the world; why doesn't she think of any of this?

Sigh. There had better be a supervillain behind all of this, is what I'm saying. This whole arc has the makings of something that might look cool and interesting from far away, but really falls apart when you actually examine it close up.
 
Little preview on Newsarma

I'm absolutley stoked for this Kate has to be my favourite female heroin. I love the villain cast and support cast that Marc has built up over the years.

If you've never read any you should try it, the trades are all out and this looks to be a nice jumping on point.

With Checkmate and Blue Beetle with uncertain futures I'm happy a consumate stable is back on the shelves.

Yay.
 
Looking forward to it. I'm glad someone's still writing Obsidian like he has an actual personality, too.
 
I heard a lot about this book, heard that it was just really under-selling. I'll probably check it out. Or at least I'd like to check it out.
 
This looks really good. I'm not sure what's going on with the colors, but I think I like it. Sign me up.
 
This thread title is in poor taste see as yesterday's events are still fresh in all of our minds.
 
If Andreyko puts Blue Beetle into Manhunter's first issue back from hiatus, I will probably plotz. :)
 
It really is some sort of weird coincidence that Beetle and Manhunter are both going to be dealing with Mexican border stories and then maybe please gods maybe Beetle is going to be showing up here. Sure, Kate is supposed to be in California and Jaime is supposed to be in Texas, but permaybehaps Mexico is just this magical realm where all borders connect to the same place. Like Xanth. Or Narnia!
 
Or Blue Beetle just happens to be out of Texas. It's not like he's never left El Paso before.
 

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