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X-Men The Official MCU X-Men News and Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'MCU X-Men' started by Lily Adler, Sep 9, 2022.

  1. Joined:
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    Psylocke, Storm, Forge, Bishop, Cecilia Reyes, Thunderbird, Sunfire and Jubilee could be household names like just like Black Widow, Ant-Man, Shang-Chi, Vision, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye and the Eternals.

    I can't wait for Marvel Studios to adapt them and make them X-Men! :applaud
     
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  2. Weather Witch Likes Sand

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    First of all, I appreciate the measured response here. With these kinds of topics, it can be hard to get the intent across. Especially online. I'll put my reply into spoiler tags since it's getting very wordy.

    I understand wanting the franchise to shift from only drawing parallels to real-world struggles and actually depicting people facing these struggles. To me, that's exactly the same as getting actual X-Men characters that are gay rather than them just being an allegory. Hell, back in the 60s the X-Men were (essentially) white straight American guys with 1 lone female character. It's why I have very little interest in the MCU adapting the O5. That's also why I mentioned not being against race-lifting in principle. I'm really happy we're getting much more POC characters in the MCU now. If any franchise should follow suit it's the X-Men.

    Though I do think characters' current status in the comics isn't the end-all for their live-action appearances. Jubilee, Forge, Kwannon, and Storm are all characters that have had more than enough relevance in different X-Men media to justify sizeable X-Men MCU roles. Synch, Trinary, and Sunfire don't have the same kind of status, so I agree they wouldn't necessarily be logical first picks. Even if I believe it could still work.

    This, however, I think is where it falls apart for me. Saying that almost all the white X-Men would benefit from race-lifting to me kinda undercuts the fact that the franchise has represented a lot of other social themes, minorities, and struggles as well. Nationality, subcultures, sexuality, gender, religion, social status, mental/physical impairments, etc. Now in some cases, this would not be impacted by race-lifting characters. In others, it definitely would impact the history and story of these characters.

    Just an example: A queer white character like Iceman would have very different experiences than Victor from Love, Victor who is both queer and Hispanic. Both of these stories are worth telling, but I'm weary of saying one would by default benefit the narrative over the other. The same goes for things like nationality, culture, and religion. Namor is a great recent example of this done right, but this is why I'd argue for a case-to-case basis. It should be done with the utmost care.

    That's why I can't really agree with your statement above that almost all white X-Men would benefit from this narratively. On a personal note, I also feel the social messages from these books have always been more complicated than "an outdated metaphor for civil rights". Allegories for racism are baked into the franchise, regardless of how we think it's been handled, but the franchise also isn't limited to those stories.

    From the perspective I wrote above, reducing the focus of X-Men to "mostly straight white people" seems a tad dismissive to me. That said, I don't disagree with the fact that many C-list characters were introduced in many cases to have more direct representation for groups that were underrepresented. I do understand the need and desire for this. I wish we'd see more of a shift in core X-Men characters that actually sticks, but nostalgia always sells I guess.

    What it comes down from me, in the end, is that I too want to see a diverse team in all the ways I outlined above. MCU X-Men shouldn't be like the original Avengers lineup. They also should have prominent POC members. I just don't think race-lifting (almost) every character would be the answer.
     
    #402 Weather Witch, Nov 19, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2022
  3. Weather Witch Likes Sand

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    My opinions on a bigger spotlight for Storm should be a given by now, but the prospect of seeing other characters like Psylocke, Forge, Thunderbird, Jubilee and Bishop done right is also absolutely amazing. I just wish we'd be getting these movies sooner!!
     
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  4. Marvel united Omega level Mutant

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    Same here. Its nice to have a respectful, sincere conversation about this topic, because it's a very charged topic.

    I do think those characters have a place in the franchise, and they could bolster some very powerful stories, but not in the beginning chapter. But when you're rebooting a franchise, you're logically going to use the principal characters first, as you're establishing the core mythology from scratch.

    And most of the core X-Men, *like Cyclops, Storm, Angel, even Jean and Beast, their stories have either not been told at all (Scott, Ororo, Warren), or haven't been told properly (Jean, Hank), so there's a loooot of ground to cover with our main X-Men first, before we even think about a character like Synch.

    Of course not. But any story detailing a different experience e.g. culture, religion, disability, sexuality, doesn't have to always default to a white character either, because non-white people can have all of those struggles as well.

    A Black or Latina Rogue isn't suddenly not going to be a story about abelism becuz she's brown, it'll be about both of those things, in conjunction.

    You're not "losing" anything by making her non-white. You're adding to the story.

    Well, Bobby isn't really who I had in mind. But now the question becomes, what aspect of Bobby's race, of being a white man, defines his experience, if not the absence of racialization? Rictor is Latino, but he's also* gay, and the only difference between them, is that Rictor faces racism, and Bobby does not. So how is his whiteness being highlighted?

    What defines being white if not the absence of racial obstacles? If Bobby's being white is going to factor into his story, then the only story you can tell, is one about privilege; Bobby's, in contrast to his racialized peers. And that's maybe not the story you want to tell with one of the only gay X-Men..

    That's Warren's story.

    But you've outlined why Marvel Studios *has to, and likely will, change, at least a couple of these characters. Because they are the faces of the franchise, and the bulk of the mythology-- stories, villains, characters, are tied to them. Those stories do not stick, because the franchise will never be about those characters.

    I love these characters; their characterizations, their stories, their struggles, but I'm not attached, in any way shape, or form, to their whiteness. Because their whiteness is simply a byproduct of the extremely intolerant culture they were created in, inspite of the themes that were *always present in these books, yes, going back to Lee/Kirby's original X-Men even.

    And the X-Men should be allowed to be evolve, and become something than just a "metaphor".

    Well, certainly not *everyone. But I do think certain characters in particular, would benefit, and tie them closer to the themes of the franchise.
     
    #404 Marvel united, Nov 19, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2022
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    It won't. It would just lead to unnecessary negativity to Marvel Studios' X-Men. People know what the Wolverine, the Professor, Cyclops, Jean Grey, Rogue, Iceman and even Gambit looked like in the comiX, previous movies, cartoons, videogames and toys. We all saw that negativity with Human Torch 2015, and this is the X-Men we are talking about here which is a much bigger IP.

    There are some that I wouldn't mind if they are racebended as long as they still look identical to their comic book counterpart. Sage, Marrow, Lady Mastermind, Stacy X - I want to see these characters to appear in the Mcu.
     
  6. Marvel united Omega level Mutant

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    *Jharrel Jerome is announced as Scott Summers* -

    Psy:
    20140614135656-1a8da2b3-me.png

    Just kidding! It's a joke!
     
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  8. HydraSith12 Registered

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    Taron Egerton is still my favorite choice to be the new Wolverine
    [​IMG]
    i like that Egerton is shorter than Jackman Wolverine is short in the Comics i would like that MCU Wolverine is more closer to that version
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Mutant 77 Supreme Keeper of the X-Men Movie Continuity

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    We got an entire TV series on Thunderbird. The Gifted.

    I'm not interested into Forge and, most of all, Jubilee. Jubilee is a useless and silly character.

    In regards to Psylocke:

    My opinion is controversial.

    We got Kwannon in X-Men Origins (as a child in 1983) and The Last Stand (as adult in 2000).
    Then, we got Betsy in Apocalypse, year 1983.

    I would love to get a cinematic rendition of the original Psylocke in her Caucasian body, with the mask and the cape. I loved that version. They turned her into an Elektra rip-off, and that was sad.
     
  10. Mutant 77 Supreme Keeper of the X-Men Movie Continuity

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    Jean Grey and Hank have been pivotal lead characters in the XCM (Fox) movies. Their stories have been told properly.

    I agree about Cyclops.
    We got a leading Cyclops only in X1, Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix. In X2, he had been already sidelined, kinda of.
    We're not really sure if X-Men Origins (set in the unaltered 1983) belongs to the prime universe or it's just an alternate universe, so we don't know if those were the true origins of the XCM character. Too bad.

    As simple as that, I think that the MCU X-Men must start from Cyclops, and Cyclops must be the leading character and "our" point of view.
     
  11. SirStrangefolk Champion of Life

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    I fully agree with this and think the best way to correct this is by making those characters relevant outside of comics, such as in the MCU.

    I think Marvel will change the race of several key X-Men for sure and they kind of have to. But I also think they should focus more on some less popular minority characters from the comics who have potential but disappear into obscurity due to the core X-Men taking the spotlight. I see it like this:
    In the bigger picture it doesn't matter how good Michael Clarke Duncan might've been as Kingpin.
    [​IMG]

    At the end of the day this is what Kingpin has looked like across all media since, and would've looked like in the eyes of most people:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    See how that didn't mean anything in the long run? I honestly don't believe that the image of Michael B Jordan as Johnny Storm, Zendaya as MJ, Tenoch Huerta as Namor, Yahya Abdul-Mateen II as Wonder Man, etc. will be how those characters will be remembered after the MCU. 3 black women have played Catwoman now, but she's still white in the comics and nearly all cartoons and games, and they'll still cast actresses that look like Anne Hathaway or Camren Bicondova for her. Some of these actors might be great as their characters, but these characters will always largely remain "white" in the public consciousness with any non-white versions being seen as an "alternative take" or "variant".

    So, in order to push forward with diversity in the long run I think they need to use the MCU to push lesser known characters that deserve a spot into the spotlight. We've seen how the MCU was able to make the GotG household names. And even the pre-Marvel Studios tv shows have had a big impact on characters' recognizability and fandom. There weren't huge chunks of people who were big fans of Quake or Jessica Jones before that as far as I remember, but since they were in shows they've become way more relevant. I hope Marvel can utilize this by making more obscure and less relevant minority characters into bigger name characters. This seems to be what they're doing for Echo by giving her her own show, and I hope it works. And I think even if Echo isn't a smash hit show, it's still going to be a big push for the character simply by nature of anything in the MCU having many more eyes on it than any solo comic or any comic run with her on the Avengers main team would get. They should do this with lesser known minority X-Men too. They can inlcude a lesser known character on the team among several more popular ones in the first film, and I think they should.
     
    #411 SirStrangefolk, Nov 20, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2022
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    If Cecilia, Sunfire, Maggott, Armor, Thunderbird, Forge and M are utilized in Marvel Studios' X-Men. Those c-listers would be frequently used in the comiX.

    So its a win win. Another poc X-Men member stopped being obscure/C list and is used in the movies and gets more eXposure in the comiX.
     
  13. Mutant 77 Supreme Keeper of the X-Men Movie Continuity

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    Maggott is my favourite. Such a massively underrated X-Man. He was weird and original.

    Sunfire deserves to wear his iconic costume.
     
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  14. squeekness The mighty squeek!

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    I loved Maggott! He was a very original and special character. Especially the way he talked. :p
     
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  15. Mutant 77 Supreme Keeper of the X-Men Movie Continuity

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    YES! I loved him to death at the time, but Marvel and its writers just discarded him for no reason. He was million light years more original and interesting than Gambit.
     
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    I can see Maggott being a fan favorite in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
     
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  17. Mutant 77 Supreme Keeper of the X-Men Movie Continuity

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    That would be my dream, but it ain't gonna happen. Sadly.

    Gambit is so overrated...

    P.s: check your private messages, Psylockolussus.
     
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  18. squeekness The mighty squeek!

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    Well, Gambit is my top fave so we'll have to agree to disagree there. :)
     
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  19. Marvel united Omega level Mutant

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    See, when I entertain the idea of taking a lesser-known, and/or less popular lineup, and bolstering them to A-list status, my mind goes to them:
    91hz22rm4cL.jpg

    The original X-Men; the foundation of *everything in the franchise. I think with some slight tweaking, and reimagining, the O5 could be the most compelling, rich, dynamic lineup we've ever had on film, AND in the comics. They have a lot a creative leeway with this team.

    Taking a hugely important, but largely unappreciated part of this franchise, and shining a starring light on it, is more narratively lucrative than plucking random characters like Maggot out of obsecurity-- in a misguided attempt to avoid modernizing the franchise.

    There's gonna be a time and place for alll of these characters in the future, but let it come naturally*, instead of forcing it.
     
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  20. SirStrangefolk Champion of Life

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    My issue with this is that this approach is limited in scope to only the MCU. Sure, you can "modernize" the O5 within the MCU, but that won't mean a thing in the long run when all of them will remain in their classic version in the comics, cartoons, video games, and future film adaptations 90% of the time. You can cast for a native American Scott or a black Jean or whatever, but that will always be considered an "alternative take" on those characters and it won't stick in other media. Which means that your approach does not make the X-Men franchise more modernized or diverse if you look at the franchise as a whole, instead of exclusively through the lens of the MCU. So while I think it's inevitable for Marvel to racelift some major characters for the MCU, that by itself will never be enough to modernize the franchise as a whole.

    On the other hand, elevating underrated minority characters through the MCU is probably one of the only ways to truly be innovative and modernize the franchise. As you said before, most minority characters introduced in the comics don't stick around. They don't instantly get to be on the level of popularity of the classics, and are thus doomed to fade into obscurity when people want their old favorites in the spotlight again. There's almost no way to make a fully original character popular through comics alone anymore. So that's where the MCU can also function to future proof the franchise, because it gets more eyes on it than the comics do. Giving spotlight to characters that were created as minorities from the start that are good in concept but underrated could lift them to popularity in the same way it did for many other characters, most notably the Guardians. This in turn will add more characters to the pool of popular X-Men that can be used across all media in the future, as well as have more representation baked into more of its popular heroes.
     
    #420 SirStrangefolk, Nov 22, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2022
  21. Mutant 77 Supreme Keeper of the X-Men Movie Continuity

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    The problem is that starting with the O5 would mean that you must focus on them at least in the story-arc of two movies. One movie would be too little.
    You can always use Scott and Jean for another roster, and tell their stories when dealing with a richer line-up.

    Warren is my problem, quite frankly. He's not so interesting.
    Warren might definitely have a place in the MCU universe, but should be given more power. He's the weakest X-Man.

    By the way, talking about the XCM:

    In X3 Angel wasn't an X-Man.

    In Apocalypse, Archangel/Death could not be Warren Worthington III for timeline reasons. I call the guy "Kenneth". He's a British Cheyarafim.
     
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    The O5 line up as a lesser known line up??? Like who are you kidding here? Every X-Men fan who has read the comiX know them. The O5 was later used again in the 2010s. How is that not well known? Also, the roster consists of Cyclops, Jean, Iceman and Beast who are all A-listers X-Men. Angel is hardly a b tier X-Men. Good Lord.
     
    #422 psylockolussus, Nov 22, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2022
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    I honestly don't get the resistance for being against so much for using lesser known underused POC characters from the comiX, when those characters would easily be popular once they are used by Marvel Studios in the movies.

    Cecilia, Forge, Sunfire and Thunderbird joining the ranks of Jean, Storm, Cyclops popularity wise won't replace the classic characters. It just means we would have more well known X-Men characters and the comiX won't be stuck using the usual 12 characters.
     
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  24. Marvel united Omega level Mutant

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    At the end of the day, these characters were always going to be variants, or "alternative takes" by virtue of them being adaptations of a pre-existing source material, regardless of if they cast diverse or not.

    If the concern is brand synergy, then that's not a problem for Marvel Studios either. When's the last time you saw white Nick Fury in the comics or cartoons? What you'll likely see is the "traditional" versions of those characters gradually phased out, and the versions more MCU adjunct gradually phased in. They'll introduce a Black Jean, or Native Cyclops in the comics, and then all future adaptations (cartoons, games etc) will follow suit.

    Again, I'm not saying those characters should never be used, or that there's no place for them, but they shouldn't be first on list of priorities. There will be a time, and a place for them in the future of the franchise, but I'd prefer they get the principal characters right first, ideally, the O5.

    Honestly, Warren is one of the the characters I'd be interested in exploring the most. A rich white kid struggling with his privilege, and the inhibitions of his family, more specifically his father-- his shame of his son, trying to "hide" him from the public, could be soooo compelling, and sooo interesting, and so emotional if done right.

    There is an amazing arc, and journey built into the framework of Warren's character already.
     
    #424 Marvel united, Nov 22, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2022
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  25. Mutant 77 Supreme Keeper of the X-Men Movie Continuity

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    Racebending in any X-Men movie adaptation is totally unnecessary.
    In the XCM, we had already many international X-Men and mutants. X-Men is already an inclusive team, we just don't need any altering of preexistent characters.

    In the XCM, we had:

    1- Magneto.
    2- Darwin.
    3- Banshee.
    4- Riptide.
    5- Azazel.
    6- Mystique, who is obviously foreign, maybe from Poland?
    7- Wolverine & Sabretooth.
    8- Storm, an African mulatto.
    9- Nightcrawler.
    10- Colossus & Magik.
    11- Agent Zero
    12- Kayla Silverfox.
    13- Blink (Clarice Fong).
    14- Warpath & Thunderbird.
    15- Sunspot.
    16- Eclipse.
    17- Archangel (Apocalypse), who is British.
    18- Mirage.
    19- Wolfsbane.
     
    #425 Mutant 77, Nov 22, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2022

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