The Official Mighty Avengers Thread

[TheCorpulent1]

Yes. It am gud.

 

[NightBeetle]

Yes. It am gud.

Alright, I'll probably pick this up next week. Did you like the whole ''Scientist Supreme'' concept that was given?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Initially it left me scratching my head, but once Eternity explained it, I loved it.

 

[NightBeetle]

Seems like a awesome idea,but I bet the users at the avengers sub-forums at comicbookresources (which are fill with Bendis fanboys) are going to ***** and complain about this.

 

[louiebling$]

Hank "The Wasp" Pym aka The Scientist Supreme

 

[louiebling$]

Osborn sure is rocking the Willem Dafoe grin there

Whenever I read Norman in a comic I hear Dafoe's voice in my head

 

[BrianWilly]

Initially it left me scratching my head, but once Eternity explained it, I loved it.

Other way around for me. When Eternity first said the term "Scientist Supreme" I was like oh**** that is so awesome. But then he went on about the rationale and I was like wait...Explorer? Engineer? Mage? Does that actually make any sense or is it just a bunch of words that kinda sound pretty?

Admittedly I've been reading a lot of Dan Brown lately.

 

[Dread]

What Eternity meant is that Pym was the most creative scientist of the trio, since using science as magic requires a lot of will as well as imagination, even eccentric imagination. The line between science and magic can be a thin one and Pym, at least to Eternity, reaches it.

I enjoyed the issue. Repost of my review, with spoilers:

MIGHTY AVENGERS #30:

Spoiler

After a little break last issue, Dan Slott is back co-writing this run alongside Christos Gage for one of the most exciting chapters yet of his run, now 10 issues old (or about 11 if you count the REQUIEM one-shot, which was mostly reprints with about 8 pages of new material). The Unspoken menace is now at the fore with the Loki subplot backing off for the moment, and Avengers new and old must unite to stop it. This beacons back to the Busiek era of AVENGERS, when the series had a sense of flair and grandeur beyond the earth's mightest heroes fighting ninja or symbiotes while talking to TV sets. Sean Chen takes over for art from Khoi Pham, last seen in DARK REIGN: FANTASTIC FOUR and the first 7-8 issues of NOVA. He does a splendid job with all the various heroes, with Unspoken himself and with the scenery. If he has any flaws, it is in drawing those effected by Unspoken's gas who have become Alpha-Primitives. Pham made them look like Neanderthal monsters; there is no difference in Chen's figures and only the "growling" dialogue sets them apart. It takes some of the drama away from some panels, especially as the Barnes New Cap locks up against the Alpha-Primitive Walker. Considering, for some reason, everyone's complaints about Pham's art, I felt here was one major area he did better than Chen. I also feel Pham's artwork is fine (and, again, he was the artist before Slott got aboard; he drew a few of Bendis' SECRET INVASION issues), even though I also like Chen.

Slott and Gage go to some familiar territory, as Stature assembles various Avengers into one massive squad. Her allies the Young Avengers, as well as about half of the New Avengers (with Clint acting like an ideal leader, which he is, having led the West Coast roster as well as the Thunderbolts for periods of time; why he would relinquish that to Luke Cage of all people just smacks of Bendis' favoritism), and finally many of the "Avengers Resistance" from AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE (aside for Gauntlet, all of the members who actually were Avengers, namely Justice, Rage, and Tigra). They all finally make it into China to help Quicksilver out, but the Xenogen mists of Unspoken prove too strong for many of them. Hercules and Amadeus Cho launch their own "Hail Mary" style attack, only to find it'll hardly be easier.

The issue is all but stolen by the Hank Pym segment. Having "grown" into the Macroverse (the reverse of the Microverse, which works in comic book logic), he's now standing face to face with Eternity, who usually meets Dr. Strange. Much like nearly everyone at Marvel, Eternity has dismissed Brother Voodoo as the new Sorcerer Supreme and still acts as if Stephan is, much as Thor does, or the Avengers, or anyone who counts, really. Here Slott & Gage make their biggest pitch for Pym being "cool" and there are moments where it feels heavy handed, but as it is Eternity speaking, it makes some sense. The gist is he "chooses" Pym as "the Scientist Supreme" and overcomes Pym's own objections by claiming that Reed is "the explorer" and Stark is "the engineer" (when he isn't lobotomizing himself in INVINCIBLE IRON MAN), but Pym is apparently "the mage" of science, bringing it closer to magic than the others. I suppose that means that while Reed might be smarter, and Stark better at building things, Pym is the one with the artistic imagination (and as many artists are, has some emotional "quirks" to himself; I mean look at Van Gough). Considering many comic book scientists overlap and do whatever the plot desires, I thought this was a good way to single Pym out as distinct without stepping on the toes of the other two. It also ties into past issues of the run, especially the first few when Pym feels lowly compared to Iron Man as well as uses his science against the magic of Chthon.

I can't see the "middling" tone that others criticize the book for. If it has any problem, it is that it is divorced from the sort of hyperventilating angst and inter-comic DARK REIGN story that defines NEW AVENGERS and DARK AVENGERS. It doesn't have Marvel stroking the book like the company does for Bendis even if he devotes 55 pages to superheroes shouting at a TV report and calls it an adventure. I care about this a lot more than I cared about everyone flying in to punch Dr. Doom in the head when Bendis wrote this title. Not every book has to break it's back bending backwards to be "kewl". Unspoken is a perfectly viable threat to the Avengers; if he has any flaw, it is that modern audiences, and sometimes writers and editors, have no tolerance or patience for new creations, often wanting them dead or gone immediately, forgetting that the "classics" only got that way through sheer use and tenacity. If Marvel amped him as much as they amped, say, Purple Man when Bendis tapped him, or Hood, there'd be more buzz. I don't care about buzz so long as the adventure is solid, which it is for me. This is what I want to see in a book that calls itself AVENGERS, not Mockingbird narrating like a ghetto thug and everyone talking to a wall.

There is always time for some comedic interludes, such as the "attempt" to recruit the Dark Avengers (and Osborn's reply), and almost every line that Cho has. These characters just seem more lively and real right now, quips and all, than when Bendis writes them with dripping angst that repeats the last four words of the line prior. The line prior? The line prior. Every time? Every time. And so on. Slott & Gage don't do that. They actually WRITE.

There just seems to be something so right about new and old Avengers coming together for some big adventure, with Spider-Man and Wolverine not among them, and things getting done. The last panel seems to promise Pym being the hero of the tale, and I can't wait for the climax. Still won't call him "Wasp", though. The Scientist Supreme doesn't need a woman's name!

 

[NightBeetle]

Thanks for the review Dread

Yep, it seems like the fanboys are going to complain about the '''Scientist Supreme'' concept and keeping gushing over Bendis


http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=291980&page=2

 

[chris moore]

Yep - just finished it. Mighty is now quite possibly my favourite comic out there. I love it when the stories go beyond the current political status quo and "event ramifications". Kinda like Stargate SG-1 delving into the origins of the universe rather than just sticking to aliens masquerading as Gods.

The terms used to describe why Hank is Eternity's favourite over some of the more obvious choices make complete sense to me. Reed is capable of assimilating every scrap of knowledge there is, but will only ever be able to apply it through logical progression. Tony is hindered by only seeing application of knowledge to the physical rather that towards its expanding his understanding. Hank on the other hand strives to use his knowledge to achieve that which he imagines could happen, regardless of whether physical "laws" permit it to be so.

And the current threat? While cheesily classic in its simplicity, his being able to actually take on anyone is awesome. Plus, could not be more glad to see Clint in only a half-Ronin costume and sporting only a bow as his weapon! Hells Yeah!

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Other way around for me. When Eternity first said the term "Scientist Supreme" I was like oh**** that is so awesome. But then he went on about the rationale and I was like wait...Explorer? Engineer? Mage? Does that actually make any sense or is it just a bunch of words that kinda sound pretty?

Admittedly I've been reading a lot of Dan Brown lately.

Made sense to me. Eternity just explained the differences in the three characters' scientific perspectives. Reed embraces science to explore and experience all that the universe has to offer, Tony embraces science to build tangible products for the betterment of his peers, and Hank embraces science simply for the joy of science itself. He's the most purely "scientific" of them, since science isn't just a means to an end for him, even though he may not be as smart as Reed or Tony (although I personally think he's totally smarter than Tony).

 

[Eros]

Made sense to me. Eternity just explained the differences in the three characters' scientific perspectives. Reed embraces science to explore and experience all that the universe has to offer, Tony embraces science to build tangible products for the betterment of his peers, and Hank embraces science simply for the joy of science itself. He's the most purely "scientific" of them, since science isn't just a means to an end for him, even though he may not be as smart as Reed or Tony (although I personally think he's totally smarter than Tony).

I always assumed this as well, I always saw Tony as the genuis engineer Inventor, not a pure scientist like Doom,Reed, or Pym.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, I'm not gonna say that Tony might not have a greater capacity for learning or a higher IQ, but he's stuck to his field while Hank has branched out into all kinds of different sciences and had major breakthroughs in biology (Pym Particles) and robotics (Ultron, a fully sentient artificial intelligence) and now spatial physics (Pym Pockets). Hank's got more scientific knowledge rattling around in his brain than Tony, at least.

 

[Galact-Gal]

An extremely enjoyable issue. Hank's chat with Eternity was cool, and I have no problem with him being Earth's Scientist Supreme. (Although wasn't there an AIM baddie in Ms.Marvel who called herself the Scientist Supreme?)

I loved the page with the various Avengers standing around talking, and the 'Avengers Assemble!' page. I also liked the panel where Hank, who has just returned from the Macroverse, says, "I never lost my anchor.", and has his hand on Jocasta's cheek. And Speed is in the background making a gagging motion.


My personal gripe: Once again, Amadeus Cho gets drawn like a 12-13 year old. The idea of this kid having had sex with Delphyne makes my brain freeze.

 

[RockSP]

Hank's chat with Eternity was cool, and I have no problem with him being Earth's Scientist Supreme. (Although wasn't there an AIM baddie in Ms.Marvel who called herself the Scientist Supreme?)

Several AIM baddies have had that title. It's what they call their leader.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Next issue: Hank Pym takes over AIM! The sinister apiarists become faithful champions of justice! The Marvel universe will never be the same again!!!

 

[NightBeetle]

I don't understand why everyone on different comic forums find this issue ''forced,ridiculous, and laughable'' because of the whole ''Scientist Supreme'' deal.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Hank Pym's not the most popular character, and a lot of people seem to resent seeing someone actually try to build him up to a worthwhile character again after Bendis spent the last few years tearing him down.

 

[RockSP]

, and a lot of people seem to resent seeing someone actually try to build him up to a worthwhile character again

That's just...all kinds of sad.

 

[TheBlueRogue]

WOW that's all I can really say, as a Pym fan I LOVED this issue and hope Slott continues his work on this book. The one thing I would like is if Thor joins the team I would love that.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That's just...all kinds of sad.

Have you read some of the posts on that CBR forum NightBeetle linked to? It really is sad.

 

[Dread]

Thanks for the review Dread

Yep, it seems like the fanboys are going to complain about the '''Scientist Supreme'' concept and keeping gushing over Bendis


http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=291980&page=2

It is rather hypocritical when someone claims that Pym is "Slott's Gary Stu" and doesn't complain about Bendis handling Luke Cage. I mean, Bendis has written some good Cage stuff, but he's totally Bendis' Stu (with Drew as the Sue). It's perfectly fine for Bendis to play favorites clearly and make a big deal out of a mundane situation, but the Avengers, gasp, facing an "over the top" threat is bad? I mean opinion is opinion and taste is subjective and all. But sheesh.

It could be argued that after five years, how Slott & Gage are writing the Avengers is now uncommon and thus not seen as the norm. "Hey...they're not fighting mobsters. What the hell?"

The only mobster I want the Mighty Avengers to fight is Count Nefaria...in Italy. Make it happen, guys!

Yep - just finished it. Mighty is now quite possibly my favourite comic out there. I love it when the stories go beyond the current political status quo and "event ramifications". Kinda like Stargate SG-1 delving into the origins of the universe rather than just sticking to aliens masquerading as Gods.

The terms used to describe why Hank is Eternity's favourite over some of the more obvious choices make complete sense to me. Reed is capable of assimilating every scrap of knowledge there is, but will only ever be able to apply it through logical progression. Tony is hindered by only seeing application of knowledge to the physical rather that towards its expanding his understanding. Hank on the other hand strives to use his knowledge to achieve that which he imagines could happen, regardless of whether physical "laws" permit it to be so.

And the current threat? While cheesily classic in its simplicity, his being able to actually take on anyone is awesome. Plus, could not be more glad to see Clint in only a half-Ronin costume and sporting only a bow as his weapon! Hells Yeah!

Clint somehow looks better as Ronin without the mask and using arrows. Giving up his major advantage just to settle Bendis' ninja fixation was a bad move. Still, he and Pym could compare notes on what it's like to assume a woman's costumed identity.

I interpreted it as Pym being more like an artist than the other scientists. Reed explores and stuff, like a miner or something; he is creative but always in a utilitarian way (and usually to explore, such as via portals or ships or whatever). Stark is good at building things, especially armor and weapons, and always has. I must say that he probably didn't think out the consequences of lobotomizing himself in INVINCIBLE IRON MAN. Pym, though, is a bit more creative and I suppose using science close to "magic" also brings it to art, and as I said in my review, most "true" artists often have their demons, quirks, and bizarre emotional issues. Rather than Pym trying to bury them, in this run he's reveling in them a bit while still being useful, too. It's an interesting take. Not the easiest, but interesting. It may not always work, but sometimes an ambitious failure can be more entertaining than a hum-drum triumph. Seen one slam dunk, seen them all, but is a 3 pointer not worth attempting? There have been some misses but I am liking Slott & Gage's Pym here overall.

 

[BrianWilly]

Made sense to me. Eternity just explained the differences in the three characters' scientific perspectives. Reed embraces science to explore and experience all that the universe has to offer, Tony embraces science to build tangible products for the betterment of his peers, and Hank embraces science simply for the joy of science itself. He's the most purely "scientific" of them, since science isn't just a means to an end for him, even though he may not be as smart as Reed or Tony (although I personally think he's totally smarter than Tony).

Those kinds of descriptions are so vague and narrow at the same time that you could switch them between all three characters and it'd probably just end up being no more than slightly OOC. Reed also builds tangible **** for the betterment of everyone. Tony is also creative and imaginative. And so forth.

But that's not even the real "Wait does this actually make sense?" element here for me; even given that the above is completely true, my question is how it all of a sudden makes Hank objectively more of a scientist than the other two. So he's treating science almost like magic and making the impossible possible and...sooooo...what, exactly? Is the criterion here that you be a great scientist or that you treat science like magic? It's not actually explained at all, much less why that would make him Eternity's champion against chaos. And make no mistake, being Scientist Supreme is kind of a big freaking deal, which is why I was disappointed when Eternity starting throwing out vagueish descriptors that don't really explain the situation.

 

[Dread]

Those kinds of descriptions are so vague and narrow at the same time that you could switch them between all three characters and it'd probably just end up being no more than slightly OOC. Reed also builds tangible **** for the betterment of everyone. Tony is also creative and imaginative. And so forth.

But that's not even the real "Wait does this actually make sense?" element here for me; even given that the above is completely true, my question is how it all of a sudden makes Hank objectively more of a scientist than the other two. So he's treating science almost like magic and making the impossible possible and...sooooo...what, exactly? Is the criterion here that you be a great scientist or that you treat science like magic? It's not actually explained at all, much less why that would make him Eternity's champion against chaos. And make no mistake, being Scientist Supreme is kind of a big freaking deal, which is why I was disappointed when Eternity starting throwing out vagueish descriptors that don't really explain the situation.

Beyond unstable molecules for costumes, nothing Reed has invented has made a big deal to the Marvel world. You don't see Fantasticars flying everywhere. You hear of him selling patents for money, but you see absolutely none of them applied to any character, civilian or hero, in Marvel ever. Instead he usually spends most of his time away from his wife plotting out how to better go into space, or the Negative Zone, or other realities. Even his "solve everything" mantra now has resulted in...more exploring. Exploring the Multiverse for solutions.

Iron Man builds stuff. Nearly everything he builds is an armor or weapon or an armor that has weapons. His science is not exploration but applying nuts and bolts solutions to terran machines. Or mastering the machines of aliens or whatever. Working with machines is different areas of science.

You also have to keep in mind, comic book scientists often do anything the plot requires. If they need Stark to mix together a serum, he will. If Reed needs to build some giant Galactus fighting armor, he will. Marvel and comics in general are usually very bad at keeping certain scientists in certain areas because science itself is used as magic in story writing. It's where "techno-babble" comes into play. A lot of elements or stories in science fiction are just as fantastic, far fetched and complete baloney than supernatural or mystical fantasy stories, but because science exists in the real world and has fantastic applications, it is swallowed more so. Even CSI (and similar crime procedurals) bend the truth as to what is done in crime labs or how computers can solve crimes. This is perhaps an overdue attempt to put some Marvel scientists into certain areas.

Pym, at least since finding the realm Kosmos for the "particles", doesn't explore. He doesn't usually build weapons. Instead his science is about growing and shrinking, objects or people, and maybe perceptions (he can of course build gadgets or robots when he has to, so can Spider-Man). He applies almost nothing but creativity into his science, which is where he is different. The downside to imagination, of course, is often instability in everything else. Some of the best artists, writers, even scientists are complete **** ups in their family lives or in social situations.

Also, while Eternity is a character, it is possible that since he attacked Pym when he felt that was how the universe treated him, he also may have embraced him because Pym wants to be accepted or seen as at least equal to Richards and Stark.

During the DANGEROUS arc of ASTONISHING X-MEN, Danger rattled off all sorts of gibberish that meant nothing to justify the blander than bland plot of "machine goes evil". This was at least as good as that.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Every scientist does all kinds of stuff. The descriptions Eternity gave were what each of those scientists are particularly known for. Reed explores more than anything else, Tony builds more than anything else, and Hank flexes his imagination more than anything else. Actually, Hank's description is a bit vague, but it works in contrast to the other two.

We'll have to see how it's implemented going forward. I mean, calling Dr. Strange the Sorcerer Supreme didn't really mean much when they bestowed the title on him, either. He just had to be purer and better than Baron Mordo and whoever else to get the title. Then it was worked out in practice that the Sorcerer Supreme is basically the entire dimension's first-line guardian against magical f***wittery. So far, Hank's been meeting all kinds of threats alongside the Mighty Avengers and beating them back with whatever super-science doohickery he came up with, which works out to basically the same thing in practice as Strange's title.