The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 36

[DeadPresident]

I agree that he played a lot deeper than most of us thought he would (I don't know if that was by design or a choice he made) but yes, he didn't create much in that role. And I'll also agree I'd like to see more fight from him if he's gonna play in the midfield, hell when was the last time he got a yellow card lol. I just think he'll need some time to adjust. He played almost the whole season last year as a #10. This season he comes in and they want him to play a #9. Now they want him to be a #10 again. I honestly think we'll see Rooney come into form sooner rather than later. Frankly, he'll have to. He seemed vastly uninterested in even going towards goal today. I just don't think it's a confidence issue. It seems like more of LVG asking him to do something and he just doesn't seem comfortable about doing it.

All the position changes can't help, but I also feel that some players are asked to change position now and then and adapt a lot quicker than Rooney has. I didn't see him hovering near the box to take shots or assist in attack much at all today. I guess it's just a departure from what I'm used to seeing from Rooney, and it seems to be affecting his confidence the more he doesn't play confidently. He's just in dire need of a good performance, and these kind of flat absent performances are just reinforcing his ineffectual play at the moment. I feel bad for him, he needs to just get some positive performances down.

 

[Hunter Rider]

We weren't in it for 30 minutes, Southampton exploited the loss of Blind's left side bodyguard as Rojo positionally is a liability, and unfortunately Blind's lack of power was exposed by Pelle, then he moved to LB and Mane did him for pace. Probably his worst game of the season.

I think bringing on Valencia was the right call, Mata had done nothing in the first half but with Valencia stretching the pitch he got more space, I also thought the Bastian substitution was a big one, he always looks for the forward pass and picks up positions that allow him to get us on the front foot most of the time. Carrick and Schneiderlin play way too square of each other and in truth Carrick is looking like his legs aren't really up to it in this system.

Rooney was not at the races yet again. Slow, sluggish and lacking any type of creativity or ability to turn on the ball, the kery ingredients for a #10.

Martial and De Gea won us the points, our young striker has an old head on his shoulders, the Cruyff turn and finish for his first was class and he executed the second perfectly after anticipating the potential error, plus he drove at them more than once and won free-kicks as they couldn't handle him. At the other end De Gea made some very good saves and one that was the saving equivalent of Scarlett Johansson and Hayley Atwell making out.

I just can't get overly enthused, we have so much resting on a 19 year old striker which isn't right, Memphis really needs to get off the mark, he has good moments each game but too many sloppy ones at the moment in the PL. I also felt our back 4 looked solid but the loss of one piece and it looks like a house of cards with De Gea back to having to dig us out of bad situations.

 

[Darthphere]

At the other end De Gea made some very good saves and one that was the saving equivalent of Scarlett Johansson and Hayley Atwell making out.

Majesterial.

 

[DeadPresident]

Certainly he's taken over from Courtois as the best in the league. I'd say he was the best last season already actually, just by virtue of the kinds of saves he had to make.

 

[kit1982]

He's also got the best control and distribution I've ever seen from a gk, he gets some horrendous back passes yet makes it look so easy. He has a bit of the Van Der Sar about him, really understated on the pitch. Every bit as good as Neuer Imo.

 

[DeadPresident]

I might be on the bias Kool-Aid but I feel like Courtois had a rock solid defense in front of him last season so he didn't get called into action half as often as De Gea did. He's also shown some positional deficiencies, like the Charlie Adam lob and his sending off this season. In terms of decision making De Gea seems like his superior in all honesty. Courtois is still in the top 3 keepers in the world, but I think too many people were enamored by Chelsea's performances last season and heaped exaggerated praise on Courtois.

And yeah, in terms of his distribution he's typically Spanish, he calmly finds players and deals with back passes well.

 

[BatmanBeyond]

Considering the opposition in the next game, might be a good idea to rest him in the next match, especially with the run of matches coming up. Maybe put Herrera in there. That is if LVG remembers he plays for them. I wonder what the deal with Herrera is.

The Herrera thing is becoming a witch-hunt at this point imo. LvG clearly rates him, but in the current system he's not positionally-disciplined enough to play one of the two pivot roles (at least not yet), so that only realistically leaves the #10 spot. Don't get me wrong, I'd start him over Rooney in that role at this point, but I can also see why LvG is reluctant to bench Rooney as he's the captain and there's also a willingness to get him up and running this season after a slow start. May be a good idea to bench Rooney in an attempt to fire him up at this point, though, especially with Herrera almost always performing when he's playing and with Martial confounding doubters at almost every turn. I'd even consider going back to the 4-3-3 in some matches as well, it's the system that best suits Herrera and we now have the midfielders to play it even more competently than last season.

Speaking about the young lad, I can't express how happy I was to see him come on against Liverpool and score on his debut, after all the 'waste of money' crap thrown at him and United before he had ever kicked a ball. Subsequent performances against PSV and today indicate he'll be a star, but as Hunter points out, it feels like we're banking too much on young players like him and Memphis at this point. Just feels like we're too light on numbers and options off the bench currently, which was very much in evidence against PSV in midweek. I remember LvG's Bayern coming across similarly during his first season (what with them playing Olic as the #9, instead of a proven goalscorer like Gomez, who they had spent a fortune on, for example), there was this air of uncertainty over a lot of the selection choices, but most of them proved him right - I think Olic even had his most prolific season during that period.

Was extremely gutted for Luke Shaw, hopefully he makes a full recovery and we manage to cope without him in the meanwhile. Thankfully, he's still only 20, so I'm thinking we'll see him come back stronger than ever, especially on the evidence of how he came back for this season.

Regarding the match today, I'll always be happy with 3 points, even though it's a bit concerning how Shaw's injury has already destabilised our defense seemingly. Hopefully, after a couple of matches with Rojo in the side they get better.

He's also got the best control and distribution I've ever seen from a gk, he gets some horrendous back passes yet makes it look so easy. He has a bit of the Van Der Sar about him, really understated on the pitch. Every bit as good as Neuer Imo.

This.

I can kind of understand why DDG wanted to leave for Real with the amount of horrible Phil Jones backpasses he had to deal with last season.

 

[kit1982]

I still struggle to blame him for the Adam goal, if everyone hit a ball that sweetly all the time Neuer would get lobbed 3 times a game.

I do agree that Courtois was more protected and that De Gea is the superior keeper though.


Lol BB I was thinking of Phil Jones when I wrote that! Seriously though a few of them were like shots on goal.

 

[DeadPresident]

I think one of the main reasons van Gaal is persisting with Rooney so much is is if he leaves Rooney out and United end up kicking on well with the youngsters, it basically ends Rooney's inclusion as anything more than a bench option. At the moment I think 4-3-3 with Schweini, Schneiderlin, Herrera in midfield and Memphis-Martial-Mata/Young is United's strongest lineup. The way Rooney is playing at the moment Martial is a far better option at #9 and Herrera is a better option at #10. If Rooney had to stop being played I wonder if he wouldn't kind of fade into obscurity after a while, the sad fact is I don't really think he offers a huge amount in the PL right now.

In Europe where he can finish chances created by the more dynamic players he still has a place, but he isn't physical or quick enough to be contributing massively in the PL.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Correa , the ultimate super sub comes in 30 secs later he scores.

Got a good assist as well, his introduction along with Oliver Torres turned the game for Atletico, they have a very impressive collection of players under 25 in their squad right now.

Yeh fair point, I just think that you can't count on Aguero to stay fit for 38 league games nevermind your CL run. They have no depth because Bony just looks lost.

It's tricky and the result of the one striker formation, most big teams get around by having wide players and a #10 that are good for double figures, but City's are not prolific.

Btw Kit, what is your take on Leeds young LB? We were linked with a £4M move for him in January earlier in the week.

Majesterial.

The Herrera thing is becoming a witch-hunt at this point imo. LvG clearly rates him, but in the current system he's not positionally-disciplined enough to play one of the two pivot roles (at least not yet), so that only realistically leaves the #10 spot. Don't get me wrong, I'd start him over Rooney in that role at this point, but I can also see why LvG is reluctant to bench Rooney as he's the captain and there's also a willingness to get him up and running this season after a slow start. May be a good idea to bench Rooney in an attempt to fire him up at this point, though, especially with Herrera almost always performing when he's playing and with Martial confounding doubters at almost every turn. I'd even consider going back to the 4-3-3 in some matches as well, it's the system that best suits Herrera and we now have the midfielders to play it even more competently than last season.

This is the issue for Ander, he's not disciplined enough for the double pivot as you say, and he isn't really a proper #10, he's an attacking midfielder in a proper 3 man midfield, like Iniesta. Right now I'd start him over Rooney for sure but that is not likely to happen anytime soon.

 

[Hunter Rider]

I think one of the main reasons van Gaal is persisting with Rooney so much is is if he leaves Rooney out and United end up kicking on well with the youngsters, it basically ends Rooney's inclusion as anything more than a bench option. At the moment I think 4-3-3 with Schweini, Schneiderlin, Herrera in midfield and Memphis-Martial-Mata/Young is United's strongest lineup. The way Rooney is playing at the moment Martial is a far better option at #9 and Herrera is a better option at #10. If Rooney had to stop being played I wonder if he wouldn't kind of fade into obscurity after a while, the sad fact is I don't really think he offers a huge amount in the PL right now.

In Europe where he can finish chances created by the more dynamic players he still has a place, but he isn't physical or quick enough to be contributing massively in the PL.

The big issue for us is that one the wage he is on we can't really use him as a bit part player. I really don't think the club can fully move forward while he is still so entrenched, the MLS beckons IMO.

 

[Parker Wayne]

It does worry me also that we're relying so much on our young players to a degree. Rooney needs step it up because there needs to be consistency among one of our veterans up front. Mata's been a wild card so far this season and Rooney hasn't played like he has in the past. We're relying on Martial and Memphis but there with such young players you can't expect them to be on every week, especially Memphis who is still getting used to the PL and has had bright spots as well as sloppy play so far this season.

The loss of Shaw is going to hurt us going forward and it nearly did with this game.

I do agree that Memphis-Martial-Mata/Young with Herrera may be the best combination unless Rooney can get his head in the game right. It's not just a physical thing for me. He's just less aggressive in general. I thought it was a Van Gaal thing but Martial's been allowed to be aggressive to greater success. There's something off not only with Rooney physically, but mentally also.


Also, I should take a second to talk about the future too. If Rooney continues his bad form, it makes you wonder what United will do with him after season ends. I'm not gonna answer that here because it's too early to tell, but there is potential with United's young players. Januzaj has played well with Dortmund and will be back after this season's over. James Wilson will be around, as well as Andreas Pereira, who are two players with a lot of potential.

I think that Van Gaal has done a good job at offloading the older players and rebuilding this team for the future. It's a younger team with a lot of potential that I hope can be sustained and improved upon.

Plus, I think this could be the beginning of a beautiful combination. If Januzaj and Pereira can both be up to snuff also in the future, the attack could be a dangerous one:

 

[Parker Wayne]

While we're at it, I should mention that now there's rumors coming up with United wanting to get Pep Guardiola after his contract runs out with Bayern and Van Gaal retires in 2017. Problem with that rumor is that he would have to pull a Klopp sit around for a year for a year for that to happen. I don't know what will happen, but it will be interesting what Pep will do because it could possibly dictate the future of the PL in general.

 

[Parker Wayne]

Got a good assist as well, his introduction along with Oliver Torres turned the game for Atletico, they have a very impressive collection of players under 25 in their squad right now.

I hope United's scouts are looking at Correa.

 

[Parker Wayne]

Also, Van Gaal did not seem happy with Rooney this game.

 

[kit1982]

Hunter - Charlie Taylor is a very good player who can go as high as he wants. He's a little bit more of an old school fullback but is adept going forward as his goal on Saturday demonstrates. I'm not sure he's United quality yet though.

I am a bit surprised no one has offered money for another of our youngsters Lewis Cook. He's an 18 year old, but has the footballing brain of a senior pro. I'd urge people to keep an eye out for him.

 

[Iceman]

Is LVG definitely not here for the long haul? Seems like he'll be doing all the hard work.of reestablishing a giant but not reaping all of the rewards. Unless he's old enough to retire I guess.

 

[Parker Wayne]

He's not. He's reiterated several times he plans to retire in 2017. He's pretty much building Manchester United up for the next manager, who may or may not be Ryan Giggs though I think the board wants Pep Guardiola.

 

[Zantera]

I really don't hope we go for Guardiola. It would pain me less if Steven Gerrard became our next manager than if Guardiola did.

 

[DeadPresident]

Guardiola actually makes some of the most sense. People are looking at his last two years with Bayern and blaming their lack of success in the CL on him alone, not really looking at the fact that the key players - Schweinsteiger, Robben, Ribery, Dante, Boateng have been declining for a little while and just like United they haven't been replenishing their squad responsibly. Guardiola also makes sense because he uses the same tactics and underpinning ideas for his style as LvG does, so it'll be a fairly natural progression.

People only need to look at what Guardiola did with the fresh squad in his opening season at Barcelona to see how a team can play under him. If not Guardiola then I say give Giggs the reins. He's been managed by SAF for over half his life, he'll have been number two to LvG for for at least two seasons. If he doesn't have the requisite platform to go on from there, he probably never will. Young managers like Guardiola, Mourinho or Simeone do come through every once in a while and end up fitting into the manager's seat naturally.

 

[Kaleb]

Got a good assist as well, his introduction along with Oliver Torres turned the game for Atletico, they have a very impressive collection of players under 25 in their squad right now.
.

As impressed as I have been with Correa, I have to say Griezmann has probably been my favorite player to watch right now.

 

[DeadPresident]

The big issue for us is that one the wage he is on we can't really use him as a bit part player. I really don't think the club can fully move forward while he is still so entrenched, the MLS beckons IMO.

Yeah that Moyes contract is a thorn in United's side. I feel bad because Rooney is a fixture with United in my eyes, but it just looks like he's moved beyond being able to contribute week in and week out in the PL. I'd be interested to see if LvG moves for anyone in January, that might give us an indication on whether Rooney might be moved out at the end of this season. With RvP it was clear van Gaal has no qualms about getting rid of players that he doesn't see contributing.

IMO United will go for a few players in January that may open the door for Rooney's departure.

 

[DeadPresident]

Is LVG definitely not here for the long haul? Seems like he'll be doing all the hard work.of reestablishing a giant but not reaping all of the rewards. Unless he's old enough to retire I guess.

Oddly enough that's pretty much what he does. He's been fairly successful in terms of silverware, but his biggest contribution at club level is laying the foundation for the subsequent manager. He did it at Ajax when he blooded in the ridiculous team full of youngsters there, a few of which ended up becoming legends at various other European clubs, Bergkamp and Seedorf mainly. He did the same at Barcelona, creating a solid foundation that ended up serving Rijkaard and Guardiola well, and then again at Bayern. It was his groundwork that gave Heynckes a decent squad to win the CL with.

I feel like he'll do the same thing at United. He's one of the few managers with the stones to make the wholesale revamp changes United have needed, while still having the clout to attract top players. IMO whoever succeeds him is going to have a decent squad that's very well drilled and responsible.

 

[Iceman]

He's not. He's reiterated several times he plans to retire in 2017. He's pretty much building Manchester United up for the next manager, who may or may not be Ryan Giggs though I think the board wants Pep Guardiola.

Oh well that's nice of him. t: He'll certainly go out with a bang and a mini-legacy here if he can turn the club around in their most difficult era in memory (for people of may age at least). I hope he can get one title then before he bows out.

Oddly enough that's pretty much what he does. He's been fairly successful in terms of silverware, but his biggest contribution at club level is laying the foundation for the subsequent manager. He did it at Ajax when he blooded in the ridiculous team full of youngsters there, a few of which ended up becoming legends at various other European clubs, Bergkamp and Seedorf mainly. He did the same at Barcelona, creating a solid foundation that ended up serving Rijkaard and Guardiola well, and then again at Bayern. It was his groundwork that gave Heynckes a decent squad to win the CL with.

I feel like he'll do the same thing at United. He's one of the few managers with the stones to make the wholesale revamp changes United have needed, while still having the clout to attract top players. IMO whoever succeeds him is going to have a decent squad that's very well drilled and responsible.

Yeah I suppose that's true. Maybe he gets itchy feet once he's achieved the hard work of putting in the foundation in and getting the initial successes. He's gonna be leaving the club in a better place than Fergie left it. I wonder what happens in 2017 if it's apparent the club needs him for another year or 2 before being able to thrive without him. Utd will have another huge decision to make then when he goes.

 

[DeadPresident]

Yeah I suppose that's true. Maybe he gets itchy feet once he's achieved the hard work of putting in the foundation in and getting the initial successes. He's gonna be leaving the club in a better place than Fergie left it. I wonder what happens in 2017 if it's apparent the club needs him for another year or 2 before being able to thrive without him. Utd will have another huge decision to make then when he goes.

That's an interesting question. I've been under the assumption (crossing fingers lol) that all the hard work will be done within three years. I think three years will be enough if the next manager is Guardiola or Klopp, but maybe not enough to get the squad robust enough for a novice like Giggs. They may be able to coax an additional year out of van Gaal but I'm not sure, the three year period dovetails nicely with Guardiola possibly being available, and I think he makes logical sense.

I would be quite concerned with how he adapts his style to the PL, his tendency for defensive naivety is something that'll get punished in the PL far more than in Spain or Germany. One of the main reasons I'd possibly be alright with Giggs is he's intensely familiar with the PL and he's probably learning a lot in terms of tactics and drills from van Gaal.