The President Obama Thread: "Election Year" Edition

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Then he should have said he would pledge to cut the on-budget deficit in half. Or that he would pledge to cut the on-budget deficit as a % of GDP in half.But that's not what he said, did he? He said the deficit . . .

In his speech he was never that specific about the way he would do that. In a white house report, though, he did say as a percentage of GDP. That's just the way it is (can't go back and change that now).

...the commonly understood total deficit figure of $438 billion that is commonly reported in the media.

Well if that were the case, then they wouldn't distinguish between the two, now would they? The truth of the matter is that the monies raised by both Social Security and the Post Office are committed to those programs. Social Security has a trust fund that lends out money (as securities) to the feds as a means to raise money for future payouts. The Post Office has a similar obligation with their pension fund. To merge the two budgets would be like stealing money from one (supposedly reserved source) and crediting another then saying you don't owe that when actually you do. Suffice it to say that the Bush administration ran up a deficit of $642 billion. Any money carried over from an off budget account is actually borrowed money.
 
The Greek government is cracking down on wealthy tax evaders.

They're making a show of it now, but that doesn't change the fact that most wealthy Greeks have already moved their money out of the country.

You're bizarre hatred of a the concept of capitalism and blind devotion to communism blind you to the truth that not everything can be blamed on capitalism here.

Ooh, I love this double standard. After all the debates we've had, and all the nuanced arguments I've made about class conflict, you can still talk about my "bizarre hatred" of capitalism and my "blind devotion to communism." :whatever:

It's funny how nobody ever accuses you of having a blind devotion to capitalism, despite the fact that that's exactly the case. You're unwilling to look outside the parameters of the capitalist mode of production. Anything else, in your mind, is unthinkable.

Is it really so bizarre that I hate capitalism? You do realize that's the economic system we live under, right? I trust you can see what's happening in the world around you - the human misery of austerity, the hunger, poverty, wars, inequality. But somehow, you can't put two and two together.

The Greek government lying has nothing to do with capitalism. Greece being let into the Eurozone has nothing to do with capitalism. The Eurozone is more of a social experiment to promote and show off to the world that they are united as one.

:doh:

Are you serious? This is an absurdly idealist take on the origins of the Eurozone. You're really trying to argue that the European governments went through all that trouble for a purely symbolic expression of their unity?

Sorry, but that is an absolutely ridiculous notion. You totally ignore all the material elements at play, all the financial incentives for bringing Greece into the Eurozone, and instead posit some kind of airy-fairy explanation that these politicians wanted to demonstrate European unity for its own sake, as a "social experiment".

While there are some capitalistic elements with the Eurozone, such as being designed to be more competitive with the United States and Asia, that isn't the problem.

"Capitalistic elements"? That's an interesting way to describe the mode of production that drives the global economy.

Because they didn't want to be left out. They didn't want the embarrassing egg on their face that they were too broke to enter the Eurozone. They didn't want to be excluded out of one of the core components of the European social experiment. If actual capitalist economics drove the Eurozone more, the European Union would have made sure that Greece's books were sound and secure as opposed to taking the Greek government at face value because of the the hopes of European integration blinding them to the truth.

Because they believed Greece's lies.

The banks also believed Greece's lies. That is why they got low credit.

Good Lord. You really believe that the reason the EU overlooked the weaknesses of the Greek economy was because they were so utterly driven by their sincere passion for European unity? And that increased profits played no role whatsoever?

:o

Quick, name me all the European politicians whose biggest campaign donors were deep-pocketed ideologues who wanted a pan-European "social experiment", just because.

Now name me all the European politicians whose biggest campaign donors were banks and corporations that wanted to protect their investments.

There's a reason why journalists always tell you to "follow the money".
 
They're making a show of it now, but that doesn't change the fact that most wealthy Greeks have already moved their money out of the country.
True.

Ooh, I love this double standard. After all the debates we've had, and all the nuanced arguments I've made about class conflict, you can still talk about my "bizarre hatred" of capitalism and my "blind devotion to communism." :whatever:

It's funny how nobody ever accuses you of having a blind devotion to capitalism, despite the fact that that's exactly the case. You're unwilling to look outside the parameters of the capitalist mode of production. Anything else, in your mind, is unthinkable.
The difference is that I don't blame Communism when it's not Communism's fault. Like the time that we argued how Communism won't take hold in Eastern Europe ever again, I don't blame the economic system of Communism, I blamed Russia for creating the totalitarian state associated with it and tarnishing Communism's reputation and turning the hammer and sickle into a new form of the swastika in former Communist countries.

You're blaming capitalism when it isn't capitalism's fault. I will perfectly admit that there are times when capitalism shows its flaws. Again, I have constantly brought up Russia where attempting to bring capitalism was a total failure. And it's no surprise that the Communists did good there in the recent elections.

Is it really so bizarre that I hate capitalism? You do realize that's the economic system we live under, right? I trust you can see what's happening in the world around you - the human misery of austerity, the hunger, poverty, wars, inequality. But somehow, you can't put two and two together.
A lot of the **** you mention is not capitalism's fault. A lot of it has to do with the political and social systems that these areas are under. It's not capitalism's fault why there is war and hunger in Africa. It's not capitalism's fault why World War II happened. It's not capitalism's fault when a government oppresses a group of people (capitalism is all about social mobility).

Are you serious? This is an absurdly idealist take on the origins of the Eurozone. You're really trying to argue that the European governments went through all that trouble for a purely symbolic expression of their unity?
The Eurozone was purely idealistic. After centuries of being cracked by war and division, Europe wanted to show that they can unite together with the Eurozone being the forefront of that social experiment.

Sorry, but that is an absolutely ridiculous notion. You totally ignore all the material elements at play, all the financial incentives for bringing Greece into the Eurozone, and instead posit some kind of airy-fairy explanation that these politicians wanted to demonstrate European unity for its own sake, as a "social experiment".
Greece wanted the financial benefits, but Greece also didn't want to be the only country in the European Union at the time that didn't qualify for the Eurozone.

"Capitalistic elements"? That's an interesting way to describe the mode of production that drives the global economy.
Well, capitalism does drive our economy :dry:

Doesn't change the fact that other factors drove the creation and adoption of the Euro.

Good Lord. You really believe that the reason the EU overlooked the weaknesses of the Greek economy was because they were so utterly driven by their sincere passion for European unity? And that increased profits played no role whatsoever?
The Greek government covered their tracks well. It's just like how a lot of companies show their weaknesses when it's far too late because of their (illegal) lies.

Quick, name me all the European politicians whose biggest campaign donors were deep-pocketed ideologues who wanted a pan-European "social experiment", just because.

Now name me all the European politicians whose biggest campaign donors were banks and corporations that wanted to protect their investments.

There's a reason why journalists always tell you to "follow the money".
Yeah, you can follow the money, but this villainy of capitalism wasn't what drove the Eurozone.
 
In his speech he was never that specific about the way he would do that. In a white house report, though, he did say as a percentage of GDP. That's just the way it is (can't go back and change that now).

Who said anything about the way he would do it? If I pledge to get to work on time and my deciding to bike instead of drive causes me to be late, does that get me off the hook for breaking my pledge?

He made the pledge to cut the deficit in half. Period. Now you can try and spin it any way you want, you can reference other reports or other speeches, but there's no denying what he said and there's no honest way of spinning it . . . although you will definitely continue to do what you can to keep your image of Obama unblemished.

Here's the Youtube of Obama pledging to cut the deficit (not just the on-budget deficit, and not the deficit as a % of GDP) in half:

[YT]SaQUU2ZL6D8[/YT]

And I do have a correction to make. According to this CNN Money article, Obama was referring to the $1.3 trillion deficit. My incorrect assumption was that he was referring to the $438 billion deficit. I was apparently wrong.

Even so, $1.3 trillion isn't half of $1.3 trillion, and the pledge remains broken.
 
Who said anything about the way he would do it? If I pledge to get to work on time and my deciding to bike instead of drive causes me to be late, does that get me off the hook for breaking my pledge?

He made the pledge to cut the deficit in half. Period. Now you can try and spin it any way you want, you can reference other reports or other speeches, but there's no denying what he said and there's no honest way of spinning it . . . although you will definitely continue to do what you can to keep your image of Obama unblemished.

Here's the Youtube of Obama pledging to cut the deficit (not just the on-budget deficit, and not the deficit as a % of GDP) in half:

[YT]SaQUU2ZL6D8[/YT]

And I do have a correction to make. According to this CNN Money article, Obama was referring to the $1.3 trillion deficit. My incorrect assumption was that he was referring to the $438 billion deficit. I was apparently wrong.

Even so, $1.3 trillion isn't half of $1.3 trillion, and the pledge remains broken.

Well, if the Bush tax cuts expire at the end of this year and we make $200 billion in cuts, that could still happen.
 
Dude the 1.33 trillion deficit depends on the Bush tax cuts expiring.
 
So while you can keep demagoguing the living hell out of raise taxes on rich, it's comical you only get 1.33 trillion as the best case scenario. And this completely ignores reality, because in progressive unicorn fantasy land, when the government raise taxes, the rich will bend over and take it. I am not talking about the Laffer curve, I am talking about the elasticity of reported income.

Meanwhile Obama gives more hand outs to 0% taxpayer extraordinaire GE, and increase loopholes for fake green companies. I would love to start a thread on the companies bankrupt or losing money that got stimulus money.
 
The difference is that I don't blame Communism when it's not Communism's fault. Like the time that we argued how Communism won't take hold in Eastern Europe ever again, I don't blame the economic system of Communism, I blamed Russia for creating the totalitarian state associated with it and tarnishing Communism's reputation and turning the hammer and sickle into a new form of the swastika in former Communist countries.

You're blaming capitalism when it isn't capitalism's fault. I will perfectly admit that there are times when capitalism shows its flaws. Again, I have constantly brought up Russia where attempting to bring capitalism was a total failure. And it's no surprise that the Communists did good there in the recent elections.

I don't keep bringing up capitalism because I'm making a moral judgement. The fact is that the mode of production provides the base for everything else in society - the superstructure on top of the economic base. This is why so many political developments, when you get right down to it, are ultimately driven by economic concerns (not only economic concerns, but they play a key role).

A lot of the **** you mention is not capitalism's fault. A lot of it has to do with the political and social systems that these areas are under. It's not capitalism's fault why there is war and hunger in Africa. It's not capitalism's fault why World War II happened. It's not capitalism's fault when a government oppresses a group of people (capitalism is all about social mobility).

You can't understand why these areas have the political and social systems they do without understanding the role that economics played. Let's take your examples one by one.

Africa

The entire continent was colonized by the European powers in the 19th century so they could exploit Africa for raw materials, cheap labor and new markets. After World War II, the imperialist powers could no longer afford to control these countries by direct military force, and instead moved to more indirect economic domination.

Following independence, there was no way forward under capitalism for the ex-colonial countries. The national bourgeoisie in each was too weak and too dependent on foreign capital to play the productive role the bourgeoisie once played in the advanced capitalist countries. So in a lot of cases you had military cliques taking control of the country and running them on a "socialist" basis, in order to fulfill the tasks of the bourgeois-democratic revolution which the weak bourgeoisie was unable to accomplish: land reform, ending foreign domination, unifying the country on the basis of a modern nation-state. They nationalized production and only in this way were able to develop the nascent industries.

However, despite the initial economic growth this caused, the bureaucratic stranglehold over the economy eventually led to reduced growth, and following the collapse of the USSR, developing nations caved to Western pressure to privatize and deregulate their economies, which led to increased poverty.

The poverty of so many African nations is directly tied to to their exploitation by the advanced capitalist countries. The wars are often linked to economics, but other times they're the result of tribal rivalries, power struggles and the like.

World War II
The extension of World War I, which was another squabble between competing imperialist powers over how to divide up the globe in order to conquer new markets for their domestic industries. The Axis powers were pushed towards expansion both to maintain economic growth by gathering new supplies of raw materials and to distract from domestic unrest. The western Allies wanted to stop this expansion because it would threaten their own control over foreign markets. And in each case, war provided a convenient economic boost and a place to channel the millions of men left unemployed by the Great Depression.

Nazi Germany, a capitalist power, invaded Russia as part of Hitler's crusade against "Bolshevism".

Oppression of Minorities
Sometimes capitalism is largely to blame, other times it isn't. For example, racism against African-Americans only came into being as a way to justify the already existing slave trade. Other times economic concerns play no role and oppression is based on mere ideology (e.g. the Holocaust).

Well, capitalism does drive our economy :dry:

Exactly. And because it drives our economy, it likewise drives our politics.
 
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So a day ish ago, I read that back in Sept 2011, Obama proposed a 3 Trillion deduction of the debt over a 10 year plan. Thinking more on it just now, does this mean 2015 projection of 23 Trillion goes down to 20 Trillion? Because if so or not, this doesn't seem to help that much.
 
I don't keep bringing up capitalism because I'm making a moral judgement. The fact is that the mode of production provides the base for everything else in society - the superstructure on top of the economic base. This is why so many political developments, when you get right down to it, are ultimately driven by economic concerns (not only economic concerns, but they play a key role).
There is a lot more than just economic concerns that drives politics.

You can't understand why these areas have the political and social systems they do without understanding the role that economics played. Let's take your examples one by one.

Africa

The entire continent was colonized by the European powers in the 19th century so they could exploit Africa for raw materials, cheap labor and new markets. After World War II, the imperialist powers could no longer afford to control these countries by direct military force, and instead moved to more indirect economic domination.

Following independence, there was no way forward under capitalism for the ex-colonial countries. The national bourgeoisie in each was too weak and too dependent on foreign capital to play the productive role the bourgeoisie once played in the advanced capitalist countries. So in a lot of cases you had military cliques taking control of the country and running them on a "socialist" basis, in order to fulfill the tasks of the bourgeois-democratic revolution which the weak bourgeoisie was unable to accomplish: land reform, ending foreign domination, unifying the country on the basis of a modern nation-state. They nationalized production and only in this way were able to develop the nascent industries.

However, despite the initial economic growth this caused, the bureaucratic stranglehold over the economy eventually led to reduced growth, and following the collapse of the USSR, developing nations caved to Western pressure to privatize and deregulate their economies, which led to increased poverty.

The poverty of so many African nations is directly tied to to their exploitation by the advanced capitalist countries. The wars are often linked to economics, but other times they're the result of tribal rivalries, power struggles and the like.

World War II
The extension of World War I, which was another squabble between competing imperialist powers over how to divide up the globe in order to conquer new markets for their domestic industries. The Axis powers were pushed towards expansion both to maintain economic growth by gathering new supplies of raw materials and to distract from domestic unrest. The western Allies wanted to stop this expansion because it would threaten their own control over foreign markets. And in each case, war provided a convenient economic boost and a place to channel the millions of men left unemployed by the Great Depression.

Nazi Germany, a capitalist power, invaded Russia as part of Hitler's crusade against "Bolshevism".

Oppression of Minorities
Sometimes capitalism is largely to blame, other times it isn't. For example, racism against African-Americans only came into being as a way to justify the already existing slave trade. Other times economic concerns play no role and oppression is based on mere ideology (e.g. the Holocaust).
Economics does play a huge role, no doubt about it. But other things such as the people in charge, political culture, and other factors play an equal role to politics.

Also, I wouldn't blame racism against African-Americans on the slave trade. The Civil War had far more to do with modern day racism against African-Americans than the slave trade.
 
There is a lot more than just economic concerns that drives politics.

I acknowledged precisely that.

Economics does play a huge role, no doubt about it. But other things such as the people in charge, political culture, and other factors play an equal role to politics.

Sure, but ultimately economic factors are the most decisive. Even Washington conventional wisdom acknowledges that whether or not a president gets re-elected depends largely on how the economy is doing.

Also, I wouldn't blame racism against African-Americans on the slave trade. The Civil War had far more to do with modern day racism against African-Americans than the slave trade.

Um...care to explain? I don't really follow your logic given that the slavery issue was what caused the Civil War in the first place.
 
Sure, but ultimately economic factors are the most decisive. Even Washington conventional wisdom acknowledges that whether or not a president gets re-elected depends largely on how the economy is doing.
Not really, they're all pretty much equal. Political culture is also a huge factor like say in the United States, a Communist would never be elected because Americans are too individualistic and disdainful of big government. Meanwhile in France, a pure capitalist would never get elected because the French have always been wary of capitalism. Or in China where the people accept an authoritarian leader as long as he doesn't abuse his power.

Um...care to explain? I don't really follow your logic given that the slavery issue was what caused the Civil War in the first place.
Slavery was a huge issue, but it was more than that. The North and South were culturally different, their economies were different, and whatnot. And it appeared that the North was essentially trying to tell the South what to do.

Racism before the Civil War was more along the lines of that ignorant "white man's burden" ********. But after the Civil War it became more along the lines of the modern day scary KKK lynching racism. Probably had something to do with the North utterly decimating the South. Racism would be dramatically different IMO if it weren't for the Civil War.
 
Not really, they're all pretty much equal. Political culture is also a huge factor like say in the United States, a Communist would never be elected because Americans are too individualistic and disdainful of big government. Meanwhile in France, a pure capitalist would never get elected because the French have always been wary of capitalism. Or in China where the people accept an authoritarian leader as long as he doesn't abuse his power.

Sure, but I would go further and ask why those countries have the political cultures they do. Historical development of each nation is influenced by political and economic factors that have a dialectical relationship, with each affecting the other.

So for example, the United States has a more individualistic culture than modern Europe because when European settlers first arrived to colonize the United States (and later when they expanded westwards), there was a huge amount of available land, and people could more easily get by on their own. Contrast that to Europe, where there's a lot less space, the population is squeezed more closely together and so you end up with more of a collectivist attitude among the people.

Both America and France had bourgeois-democratic revolutions early on, in 1776 and 1789, that rid the countries of rule by hated monarchs, and in the case of the US freed it from foreign domination. But because America was so vast and had so many resources, and because it was free from invasion by nearby competing powers (which France was not - see Prussia/Germany), it was able to develop at a more rapid pace to become one of the most powerful industrial economies in the world - which in turn gave it greater political influence, as was first illustrated at the end of World War I.

Slavery was a huge issue, but it was more than that. The North and South were culturally different, their economies were different, and whatnot. And it appeared that the North was essentially trying to tell the South what to do.

Racism before the Civil War was more along the lines of that ignorant "white man's burden" ********. But after the Civil War it became more along the lines of the modern day scary KKK lynching racism. Probably had something to do with the North utterly decimating the South. Racism would be dramatically different IMO if it weren't for the Civil War.

I disagree. The same negative stereotypes about blacks were common both before and after the Civil War. Terrorist groups like the KKK certainly came about as a reaction to the South losing the war, but I really think you're splitting hairs here. The bottom line is that blacks in the United States have always faced tremendous racism, starting with slavery, continuing with segregation, and still a big problem decades after the passage of the Civil Rights Act.

And why? In essence, racism did not cause slavery; rather, slavery caused racism. The European settlers needed vast sources of cheap labor to develop their colonies. Initially they started with native Americans, until they died en masse from European diseases and maltreatment. African slaves were the next best available source of labor, and so were shipped in huge numbers to the American colonies. The fact that slaves had a different skin color from the rest of the population meant they could more easily be identified and prevented from escaping.
In an epoch proclaiming the “Freedom, Equality, and Fraternity” of humankind, some kind of justification had to be found for the revival of slavery, a mode of production and social relationship that had died out in Europe centuries earlier, and was naturally reviled and looked down upon. Therefore, black skin, not slave labor itself, was transformed into the mark of social inferiority. It was thus that the concept of “race” based on skin color first emerged.
The idea of race didn't exist in the ancient and medieval worlds. It's a wholly modern invention, a social construct used to justify slavery in the United States or European imperialism.
 
Sure, but I would go further and ask why those countries have the political cultures they do. Historical development of each nation is influenced by political and economic factors that have a dialectical relationship, with each affecting the other.

So for example, the United States has a more individualistic culture than modern Europe because when European settlers first arrived to colonize the United States (and later when they expanded westwards), there was a huge amount of available land, and people could more easily get by on their own. Contrast that to Europe, where there's a lot less space, the population is squeezed more closely together and so you end up with more of a collectivist attitude among the people.

Both America and France had bourgeois-democratic revolutions early on, in 1776 and 1789, that rid the countries of rule by hated monarchs, and in the case of the US freed it from foreign domination. But because America was so vast and had so many resources, and because it was free from invasion by nearby competing powers (which France was not - see Prussia/Germany), it was able to develop at a more rapid pace to become one of the most powerful industrial economies in the world - which in turn gave it greater political influence, as was first illustrated at the end of World War I.
Well, it's like I said, they're all equal. Economics, politics, society, history, are all intertwined an can't be separated. To say that just one is more important than the others I feel doesn't adequately address the situation.

I disagree. The same negative stereotypes about blacks were common both before and after the Civil War. Terrorist groups like the KKK certainly came about as a reaction to the South losing the war, but I really think you're splitting hairs here. The bottom line is that blacks in the United States have always faced tremendous racism, starting with slavery, continuing with segregation, and still a big problem decades after the passage of the Civil Rights Act.

And why? In essence, racism did not cause slavery; rather, slavery caused racism. The European settlers needed vast sources of cheap labor to develop their colonies. Initially they started with native Americans, until they died en masse from European diseases and maltreatment. African slaves were the next best available source of labor, and so were shipped in huge numbers to the American colonies. The fact that slaves had a different skin color from the rest of the population meant they could more easily be identified and prevented from escaping.
In an epoch proclaiming the “Freedom, Equality, and Fraternity” of humankind, some kind of justification had to be found for the revival of slavery, a mode of production and social relationship that had died out in Europe centuries earlier, and was naturally reviled and looked down upon. Therefore, black skin, not slave labor itself, was transformed into the mark of social inferiority. It was thus that the concept of “race” based on skin color first emerged.
The idea of race didn't exist in the ancient and medieval worlds. It's a wholly modern invention, a social construct used to justify slavery in the United States or European imperialism.
There was certainly racism before the Civil War, no doubt about it. But racism before the Civil War was more based on stupidity and ignorance (which can be overcome with time) as opposed to outright hatred after the Civil War (which is a lot harder to overcome).

Race relations today would be dramatically different if the Civil War didn't happen. While slavery would have certainly ended later, the end result would have probably turned out a bit better for both blacks and whites in the South.
 
Well, it's like I said, they're all equal. Economics, politics, society, history, are all intertwined an can't be separated. To say that just one is more important than the others I feel doesn't adequately address the situation.

To say the political and economic factors have a dialectical relationship is basically the same as saying they're intertwined.

Marxism is heavily influenced by the German philosophy of Hegel. Unlike linear reasoning, where you might say "A caused B", using dialectics you would say "A is dialectically related to B." It's an interesting philosophy I've been reading a lot about lately because it's less static and takes into account how different things influence each other.

There was certainly racism before the Civil War, no doubt about it. But racism before the Civil War was more based on stupidity and ignorance (which can be overcome with time) as opposed to outright hatred after the Civil War (which is a lot harder to overcome).

Race relations today would be dramatically different if the Civil War didn't happen. While slavery would have certainly ended later, the end result would have probably turned out a bit better for both blacks and whites in the South.

How? Slavery had to end sooner or later, on moral grounds if nothing else. I'm pretty sure we would have had exactly the same process that occurred in real history, just pushed back decades in your scenario. Generations of Southerners lived their lives believing in the racial superiority of whites and inferiority of blacks, that this was the natural state of things. Those attitudes were strongly embedded in Southern culture.

The only way the South would have voluntarily ended slavery is if it was no longer profitable for the big Southern slaveowners. If that was not the case, then the only way slavery was going to end would be through violence - either a slave rebellion or what actually happened, a civil war. And then you would have had the exact same Southern resentment and hatred. So I don't buy your argument.
 
Marxism is heavily influenced by the German philosophy of Hegel. Unlike linear reasoning, where you might say "A caused B", using dialectics you would say "A is dialectically related to B." It's an interesting philosophy I've been reading a lot about lately because it's less static and takes into account how different things influence each other.
We just went over Marx being influenced by Hegel in my class.

How? Slavery had to end sooner or later, on moral grounds if nothing else. I'm pretty sure we would have had exactly the same process that occurred in real history, just pushed back decades in your scenario. Generations of Southerners lived their lives believing in the racial superiority of whites and inferiority of blacks, that this was the natural state of things. Those attitudes were strongly embedded in Southern culture.
It would have been an entirely different situation if there was no Civil War. Do you know what happened to the South in the Civil War?

This was Richmond, Virginia, the Capital of the Confederacy, after the Civil War:
800px-Richmond_Virginia_damage2.jpg


Here we have Sherman's March to Sea
536px-Sherman_railroad_destroy_noborder.jpg


And add in the fact that their economy was utterly destroyed, their plantations and homes were destroyed, what they viewed as their property was taken away and given their power (supporters of the Confederacy lost all political power until they were given amnesty in the 1870's), etc. It took the South decades to recover. It's pretty hard not to see why they whites in the South were pissed.

The only way the South would have voluntarily ended slavery is if it was no longer profitable for the big Southern slaveowners. If that was not the case, then the only way slavery was going to end would be through violence - either a slave rebellion or what actually happened, a civil war. And then you would have had the exact same Southern resentment and hatred. So I don't buy your argument.
Slavery was becoming less and less profitable. Competition from the Europeans (the British in particular) with their colonies and economic interests in Africa, the Caribbean, and Asia were driving the prices of cotton, indigo, sugar, rice, and tobacco down. Meanwhile, slave owners have to keep their slaves in tip top shape by feeding them, providing them medical attention, housing them, etc. So while it was expensive to maintain slaves, the money being made from their work was going down. It would have eventually become more cheaper to hire cheap labor than to keep slaves. Out of pure economics, the slave owners would have eventually been forced to free their slaves.

Now in a scenario where the South was not completely and utterly decimated, no one lost political power, and the slaves were freed voluntarily, there would have been far less resentment than the kind of resentment that was created in the post-Civil War era. Racism would have remained to be based on stupidity and ignorance that would have eventually been overcome as opposed to the outright hatred that it became after the Civil War.
 
Hippie, I don't think I've ever heard it put quite as well as you just did. Spot on, on all points.
 
I think the suggestion the South would part with slavery on their own is a conjecture we cannot know. However, it would have been at least many decades and that would have been an inexcusable even in itself. The South was clearly not ready to let go of their institutions as their leadership chose to secede from the Union and, inevitably, start a war because they lost an election to a man they thought would/could/might end slavery.

And blaming segregation on reconstruction? :dry: I'm not even going to bother with that. Like slavery itself, Jim Crow and its ilk had to be removed by near-force from the federal government. I honestly think that at least the Deep South (South Carolina, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia and Arkansas) would still be segregated if not for Brown v. Board of Education, the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, the "legalization" of interracial marriages, etc. I mean they're still challenging the Voting Rights Act in Georgia to this day.
 
The South could not have won the Civil War. But even if it could have gotten a cease fire / armistice, it wouldn't have lasted as a slave state. More than a third of the country's population was enslaved. They would either have to free or deport millions of slaves, or constantly worry about the North inciting a massive slave revolt.

The only reason segregation ended was because the rest of the country intervened. Segregation in the South would have probably lasted longer than Apartheid if it wasn't for the rest of the country.

The Southerners would have never ended slavery for moral reasons. As a result, you would still have segregation, or worse.
 
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The war was fought to keep slavery. They were not going to end it anytime soon.
 
The war was fought to keep slavery. They were not going to end it anytime soon.

Largely. But it was also a matter or pride and settling old scores. However, on their own, they could not preserve slavery. A society with a third of its population enslaved can't last long. Especially with a powerful enemy next door, which would exploit that weakness.

The South's situation was hopeless from day one.
 
I think the suggestion the South would part with slavery on their own is a conjecture we cannot know.
They would have been freed eventually. Plantation owners weren't going to keep slaves when slaves would be costing them money.

However, it would have been at least many decades and that would have been an inexcusable even in itself.
The way I see it is this, which is the lesser of two evils:

1. A scenario where a war is fought that kills millions. An entire region is completely and utterly devastated. Slaves are freed as a result, but they are freed into a land where there is no economic opportunity (plantations were destroyed, those who held economic power hated them, poverty was widespread).

2. A scenario where a war that killed millions is not fought. The downside is that slavery ends decades later. However, once they are freed due to economic reality and growing social movements in the South that viewed slavery as a moral evil, they are freed into a society that does not harbor resentment towards them (racism in the form of "white man's burden" for sure, but not KKK styled racism). They are freed into a land that has far more economic opportunity than Reconstruction Era South.

The South was clearly not ready to let go of their institutions as their leadership chose to secede from the Union and, inevitably, start a war because they lost an election to a man they thought would/could/might end slavery.
True, but it was something that they should have learned on their own. Compulsion often creates resentment. And resentment is something that is very hard to overcome in society.

And blaming segregation on reconstruction? :dry:
If Lincoln had his way, I don't think that Southern resentment would have been as bad. He was pretty warm to the South with open arms with some conditions. The Radical Republicans on the other hand, wanted to flat out punish the South.

And yeah, the Civil War and Congressional Reconstruction, helped foster segregation. White society was pissed for what happened in the Civil War, they weren't just forced to give up what they saw as their property, their homes were destroyed, their economy was destroyed, their loved ones were killed.

So what do you think would naturally happen once they regained their political power? They took their anger, resentment, and hatred on those they blamed for causing their misfortune.

I'm not even going to bother with that. Like slavery itself, Jim Crow and its ilk had to be removed by near-force from the federal government. I honestly think that at least the Deep South (South Carolina, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia and Arkansas) would still be segregated if not for Brown v. Board of Education, the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, the "legalization" of interracial marriages, etc. I mean they're still challenging the Voting Rights Act in Georgia to this day.
I believe that if it weren't for the North going far too harsh on the South (this goes beyond just freeing the slaves, this goes into utterly destroying and humiliating them) none of that would have ever happened to begin with.
 
The Southerners would have never ended slavery for moral reasons. As a result, you would still have segregation, or worse.

They would have never ended it for moral reasons, but they still would have ended it voluntarily. And as a result, there wouldn't have been the resentment that created segregation.
 
They would have never ended it for moral reasons, but they still would have ended it voluntarily. And as a result, there wouldn't have been the resentment that created segregation.

You're kidding right? Segregation was the norm for slaves and freedmen at the time, even in most states outside the South. Formal segregation was common in the North well into the mid-20th century (John Hopkins being segregated until the 1950's is a great example). Hence nation wide anti-miscegenation laws. The South just took it to a whole new, violent level in the 20th century.
 
Largely. But it was also a matter or pride and settling old scores. However, on their own, they could not preserve slavery. A society with a third of its population enslaved can't last long. Especially with a powerful enemy next door, which would exploit that weakness.

The South's situation was hopeless from day one.

Hence, the Civil War. I thought you were arguing if a peace was reached. However, they were not going to free their slaves if they won that war. Not in that generation, at least.
 
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