The President Obama Thread: "Election Year" Edition

[LOBO3315a]

*waits to hear how G.W. only graduated because his father paid off the deans*

 

[Thundercrack85]

That or he's Rain Man.

 

[Kelly]

I wasn't talking about THEIR education...I was talking about the education of the people electing them.

 

[DACrowe]

Education is a major problem facing this country. Our work force is becoming continually non-competitive with the rest of the world and the GOP solution across the country for the last two years of firing teachers, cutting funding to universities and raising tuition rates is not going to make us any better.

 

[chaseter]

With today's crappy job market, maybe it's time to extend school to K-14. It can be totally optional as you are 18 and can do whatever the **** you want but the extra 2 years can be prep for college or vocational studying.

 

[Kelly]

IMO, that is the problem with our education system as it is.....the only reason we have a stronger University than say....Europe, is because they have to have it to get a job anymore. In countries like Germany, you can come right out of high school ready for the workplace, you simply go in as an apprentice for a few years and you are ready to go. They do a better job of tracking their students and putting them in classes that will move them on into a job, in the US we aren't allowed to track, so you have to wait until college to really get into what you want to do with your life. It's just silly....not everyone needs to go to college....the best programs we have at our school are those that put them in college during their junior year of high school and they graduate high school with an associates degree and a high school diploma, they right into pharmacy jobs, diesel mechanics jobs, all kinds of computer jobs etc...and they love it. Our high schools should be like that....

 

[Kelly]

Education is a major problem facing this country. Our work force is becoming continually non-competitive with the rest of the world and the GOP solution across the country for the last two years of firing teachers, cutting funding to universities and raising tuition rates is not going to make us any better.

Well some teachers needed to be fired...we have to get out of the thinking that just because you have more than 10 years of teaching you don't get fired. If you aren't cutting it, and a 5 year teacher is doing the better job, you get fired...shouldn't matter how many years you have. Accountability in our education system is horrible, that is the main problem. A teacher can sit in a classroom doing absolutely nothing, and get the same pay as those teachers working their butts off...no one is holding that bad teacher accountable, so they stay, and then because of the cuts in education, the 1, 2 and 3 year teachers who in many instances are fantastic teachers are being fired. It's ridiculous...

 

[LOBO3315a]

Kelly speaks the truth in this matter. Teachers should not be above the "unwashed masses" of accountability. If they suck, they should be tossed regardless of tenure.

 

[dnno1]

Well some teachers needed to be fired...we have to get out of the thinking that just because you have more than 10 years of teaching you don't get fired. If you aren't cutting it, and a 5 year teacher is doing the better job, you get fired...shouldn't matter how many years you have. Accountability in our education system is horrible, that is the main problem. A teacher can sit in a classroom doing absolutely nothing, and get the same pay as those teachers working their butts off...no one is holding that bad teacher accountable, so they stay, and then because of the cuts in education, the 1, 2 and 3 year teachers who in many instances are fantastic teachers are being fired. It's ridiculous...

Well, teaches do get pink slips. Don't anyone think that they don't. I think DACrowe is trying to say that higher education is a major problem in this country. Many people can not afford to pay for college and thus opt to enter the workforce with fewer skills and lower pay than those who succeed and get to college. Furthermore, a lot of the manual labor, such as manufacturing has left the country and has forced people to seek a higher education if they want any job at all. Another issue is the cost of education. There are many people who go to college and finish with more debt then they are able to pay with the job they do acquire after schooling, but that's really a separate issue. What really is a problem is the cost of higher education creating barriers to entry, the fact that there are fewer lower skilled jobs for those who do not seek a higher education, and the misinformation that is out there dumbing down the public at large.

 

[Handsome Rob]

Kelly speaks the truth in this matter. Teachers should not be above the "unwashed masses" of accountability. If they suck, they should be tossed regardless of tenure.

This.

Besides, increased funding does not automatically mean better schools. Check out Washington, D.C.'s public school system if you think otherwise.

My mom, who didn't even finish college, taught my brother and I to read before we ever started school [BLACKOUT](Oh noes, how can someone without a college degree or a teaching license actually manage to teach a child to read???!!!) [/BLACKOUT]. As a result, we started kindergarten well ahead of other students--my parents even negotiated with the teacher/school to allow us to bring outside workbooks (math, etc.) to work on while the teacher taught the rest of the students how to read like we already could. Fortunately, as I was at a private school, that flexibility was allowed.

And, my mom did it without tax funding or state-planned education courses. Crazy world, isn't it? Crazy world! t:

 

[DACrowe]

Well some teachers needed to be fired...we have to get out of the thinking that just because you have more than 10 years of teaching you don't get fired. If you aren't cutting it, and a 5 year teacher is doing the better job, you get fired...shouldn't matter how many years you have. Accountability in our education system is horrible, that is the main problem. A teacher can sit in a classroom doing absolutely nothing, and get the same pay as those teachers working their butts off...no one is holding that bad teacher accountable, so they stay, and then because of the cuts in education, the 1, 2 and 3 year teachers who in many instances are fantastic teachers are being fired. It's ridiculous...

There's a difference between changing teacher accountability and firing almost all the assistant teachers in the state to get rid of the one cent sales tax which is what my old state did last year.

 

[Kelly]

Well, teaches do get pink slips. Don't anyone think that they don't. I think DACrowe is trying to say that higher education is a major problem in this country. Many people can not afford to pay for college and thus opt to enter the workforce with fewer skills and lower pay than those who succeed and get to college. Furthermore, a lot of the manual labor, such as manufacturing has left the country and has forced people to seek a higher education if they want any job at all. Another issue is the cost of education. There are many people who go to college and finish with more debt then they are able to pay with the job they do acquire after schooling, but that's really a separate issue. What really is a problem is the cost of higher education creating barriers to entry, the fact that there are fewer lower skilled jobs for those who do not seek a higher education, and the misinformation that is out there dumbing down the public at large.

I don't believe I said that they didn't....again, you aren't reading what is said....it wasn't that they aren't getting fired....it is who they are firing. I've been in the field of education for 21 years, I know who gets fired and who doesn't. And yes the cost is a major issue, the fact that we spend more per student than most countries...and yet we are middle to bottom of most lists when it comes to education. I think another issue is what people think teachers actually do in the classroom. Most do not...

But, my main point is and to get back to the topic of this thread....neither Obama or Romney seem to care a bit about education, UNLESS it will get them votes...or money. Teacher's Unions will get you both and Obama will pretty much have those no matter what he says...but if he sees that that is weakening he will slap NCLB. He has said..."one time" that he wanted to do a major overhaul with NCLB...if he wants even a heartbeat of a chance of my vote he will follow through on that...NOW. Oh wait, he's campaigning....oh well, maybe next year.

 

[Kelly]

There's a difference between changing teacher accountability and firing almost all the assistant teachers in the state to get rid of the one cent sales tax which is what my old state did last year.

Well, the assistant teachers I have had in the past, were simply another student to me in an oversized class anyway.

And no, there is no difference in the two. You fire the teachers who SHOULD BE fired and keep the ones WHO SHOULD BE KEPT...if your administrators are holding the teachers accountable effectively. Here in Texas the PDAS program is a farce.....it means absolutely nothing, and that is when you KEEP bad teachers for years....and then when you have to tighten the belt you fire teachers simply because of the amount of years they have in teaching, and keep those that really should have been fired years ago. So yes, accountability an firing go hand in hand. You need one to properly carry out the other....that is in any job.

Give you a perfect example....you have a teacher of 25 years that over the past 10 years in your district there have been students complaints of a sexual nature, no classroom management whatsoever, problems with losing classwork, the department head has put in paperwork on the teacher, parents have complained, has had a large amount of technology stolen from the room because of lack of classroom management....the teacher is then put on a year contract to give them a chance to find a job. They go to a few of the school board members and complain and that they will be going to their teacher organization rep (union rep to those up north)....and all of the sudden, out of a stack of 200 teacher renewals and dismissals...this one is pulled..(no others are pulled, just this one) and low and behold we find out that the Assistant Principals and Principal did not fill out ANY documentation from the complaints of students, teachers, and parents....nothing, only the department heads documentation was filled out and the principal did not have that in the teacher's file. THAT IS A LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY THAT HAS KEPT THIS TEACHER TEACHING.....accountability has a lot to do with firing.....especially if you want to fire the teacher that deserves it.

 

[DACrowe]

I'm not against accountability. But firing hundreds or thousands of teachers in a state simply because the legislature thinks government is evil and public education is a waste of money, is not accountability. It is stupid and harmful for the education of that state.

 

[Kelly]

I'm not against accountability. But firing hundreds or thousands of teachers in a state simply because the legislature thinks government is evil and public education is a waste of money, is not accountability. It is stupid and harmful for the education of that state.

I don't like that either...but if you are paying 100's upon 100's of teachers that should not be in the classroom...and I believe there are many more....(There was just a story here in Houston where it was found out that a professor at University of Houston has a scam going that he gets people teaching certificates without going to school, without taking the certification without test and from what the story has said, there could be 100s out there like this....this is crazy, but it is happening)If there is strong accountability and oversight for these things, that won't happen and that same accountability and oversight can weed out bad teachers.

How do you cut cost? Well one is weed out bad teachers and get the Unions out of that....if there is documentation that the teacher is not doing their job, they should be fired. It, as of right now, has to be 2 years of documentation, that should be plenty and the unions should stay out. Also, teachers that have benefits out the ass, far more than the majority of teachers out there is draining the state's bank account. Another way is to look at the vendors much more closely, allow the teacher, department head, whomever is the buyer of supplies for the classroom to find the best prices....WE ARE GOOD AT THAT, WE ARE TEACHERS....but no, lets choose vendors because you get a kick back from them and they cost out the ass for school supplies. AND.....if you have a rainy day fund that was funded by your states lottery and was promised TO EDUCATION, then stand by that promise and use it now to keep THOSE DAMN GOOD TEACHERS.

But let me say this....it is very hard to keep good teachers when your good teachers that go to professional development in the summers, that stay past 3:00 to tutor their kids, who get there early because they want their room set up the best it can be, who go the extra mile and get extra certifications, who truly love their job...it is hard to keep these teachers in your field when you have teachers that get there at 7 and open their doors with the students waiting, who say "the reason I got into education was for June, July and August", who skip professional development days even when they are during the school year, who simply fail the kids because that is easier than tutorials....when those teachers get the same exact pay as you, it is very hard to keep your head up and stay in this field. DA, that happens 100's of 1,000s times over, every day in all states....a good teacher is going to find another occupation that rewards them for hard work....because teaching DOES NOT reward you for hard work.....it rewards the squeaky wheel whether that squeaky wheel actually does the job or not....

So there are many things that can be done DA, but one that they can start tomorrow doing, is weeding out teachers that are just taking the pay home and nothing is given in return.

*steps off her soap box*

 

[LOBO3315a]

*Waits for the Pro-Union response*

 

[chaseter]

We need education reform but we also need trade/vocational schooling. The countries ahead of us have that. Kids graduate at 18 with no skills what so ever. I am 100% against public unions, teachers unions included, but I would say we have more good teachers than bad teachers.

 

[Kelly]

We need education reform but we also need trade/vocational schooling. The countries ahead of us have that. Kids graduate at 18 with no skills what so ever. I am 100% against public unions, teachers unions included, but I would say we have more good teachers than bad teachers.

We definitely have more good teachers than bad teachers....but the labor pool is overflowing in the field of education....and I would love to be able to bring in some of those awesome teachers that I know are out there.

 

[Marvolo]

We need education reform but we also need trade/vocational schooling. The countries ahead of us have that. Kids graduate at 18 with no skills what so ever. I am 100% against public unions, teachers unions included, but I would say we have more good teachers than bad teachers.

I've been saying this for years. Vocational schooling/apprenticeships would be a definite improvement over the current system.

 

[Kelly]

Your CATE programs, which is what ya'll are talking about are actually getting cut on a yearly basis.

 

[Zink]

That hardly makes him an atheist. I know plenty of atheists who have devout parents, it doesn't make them religious.

No, it's only swindling conjecture. Only a candid admission would suffice. Now how many Christians do you know with Atheistic parents? My point, exactly.

There is a reason why religion is instilled in childhood. It is necessary to indoctrinate people in moments of vulnerability (ie. depression, death of loved one, etc.) With childhood being the most efficient stage to do so. As we are mature enough to perceive, but not mature enough to critically question the religious ideals being presented to us.

Concerning Obama's religious orientation- I have to add an excerpt from his autobiography. In it, Obama relays an anecdote about his mother explaining Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, and the like to him. (In addition, they kept all the world's religious texts on their book shelf.) To roughly paraphrase- Obama believed religion was to be revered, but in a less literal, more objective kind of way. Basically, as a sign of respect to our an ancestors.

 

[Schlosser85]

Now how many Christians do you know with Atheistic parents? My point, exactly.

There are Christians with atheist parents just as there are atheists with Christian parents...

 

[Zink]

There are Christians with atheist parents just as there are atheists with Christian parents...

I have never met any. Usually, it's a one-way street, as it's difficult for a child raised on Atheistic ambivalence towards faith - to be proselytized as an adult. Whereas the opposite (Christian patents/Atheist kids) is EXTREMELY common these days due to a sociological movement among the youth.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I've met plenty, actually. It's not uncommon in countries with a high number of atheists. Or children with parents atheist and religious. Though I did recall reading that 70% of kids raised atheist remain atheist as adults.

But in this case it's largely irrelevant since Obama barely knew his father.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

Well some teachers needed to be fired...we have to get out of the thinking that just because you have more than 10 years of teaching you don't get fired. If you aren't cutting it, and a 5 year teacher is doing the better job, you get fired...shouldn't matter how many years you have. Accountability in our education system is horrible, that is the main problem. A teacher can sit in a classroom doing absolutely nothing, and get the same pay as those teachers working their butts off...no one is holding that bad teacher accountable, so they stay, and then because of the cuts in education, the 1, 2 and 3 year teachers who in many instances are fantastic teachers are being fired. It's ridiculous...

Blaming the problems of American education on "bad teachers" is a pathetic attempt by politicians and the corporate media to shift the onus away from those who starve the system of funds, and onto educators.