The Force Awakens The problem of disrespect of the Expanded Universe

[BenKenobi]

With the Marvel comics, they were released prior to Empire Strikes Back and before there was a concerted effort by Lucas Licensing to maintain a consistent continuity. Moreover, any inaccuracies regarding Vader, Kenobi and the Skywalker clan were a result of Lucas changing his mind as all story elements pertaining to them had to come from the man himself.

The only big change is Boba Fett's origins; which is again because Lucas changed his mind. Originally, he wasn't meant to play any part of the prequel trilogy (hence, why EU writers were allowed to write about his back story) but when it came time to develop the prequels, Lucas decided to include him anyway.

So basically he decided that it was his story and that even though he let other people add to it, he still had the final say, just like I have been saying.

Only insofar as they were hired to do a job. It's not like they went to LucasBooks with completed manuscripts seeking publication. Rather, it's the other way around; with LucasBooks hiring them to write novels for the Star Wars franchise.

Also, something to consider is that when Disney bought Lucasfilm, a portion of that money was to acquire the intellectual property of the various books and assorted merchandise associated with the EU that Lucasfilm, and its various subsidiaries, had published. Meaning, to rendering it non-canon devalues said intellectual property; essentially burning the money they had spent acquiring said property in the first place.

Even if this is calculated as an acceptable loss, Disney would likely want/seek to pull the existing copies off the shelf as they would be actively harmful to the franchise. The Star Wars EU is unique in that they are all for the most part in continuity and connected to one another; unlike most other EUs which consist mostly of separate, standalone books. If this continuity is not consistent with that of the new movies, it will confuse new fans who are unfamiliar with the existing EU franchise prior to the new trilogy. Worse, if continued to be available, it could discourage the new fans from buying subsequent EU merchandise that's based on the new trilogy (as they wouldn't know which individual books to buy).

In short: Rendering the current EU franchise non-canon would cost Disney money; both, by diminishing the value of Disney's intellectual property and discouraging consumers from buying the new trilogy's associated merchandise.

You're giving the EU WAY more value than it has. It's not going to derail the Star Wars franchize. Star Wars makes a majority of it's money from Toy Sales. The Comics and what not are a factor too, but a small one compared to the merchandising. Not to mention, these novels and comics are not as big as you seem to think they are. The average casual Star Wars fan, doesn't run to the book store to buy Star Wars EU books, after viewing the movies. With the internet a lot of Casual fans know small facts here and there about the EU, but the majority don't closely follow.

It's like how casual fans of the Spider-Man films or the Nolan Batman films don't all read comics or are familiar with the Marvel/DC mythos at all. Do you know how many people were in my midnight screening of the Avengers talking about how they wondered why Batman wasn't in the film, or that thought Thanos was Hellboy?

Disney most likely will not pull the EU from the shelves, rather they will simply label them into a different continuity.

 

[BenKenobi]

As far as the people running Lucas Licensing were concerned (prior to the announcement of the new trilogy), the movies, cartoon and EU were all one single continuity.

Thats not really accurate. There many levels of cannon, if one release was a higher level of cannon than another it was fair game to be overwritten.

1. G-Cannon- Anything that came from George himself (The films and the Holiday Special). Going in the order of the films, the scripts, the novelizations, the radio plays, etc.

2. T-Cannon- Anything from one of the Star Wars TV shows (Primarily Clone Wars or the untitled live action feature in development). The Clone wars has contradicted many things such as the previously established Clone Wars timeline, the killer of Adi Gallia being changed from Greivious to Savage Oppress, Asoka Tano's existence, etc.

3. C-Cannon- Everything in the EU, with major multimedia campaigns headed by Lucas with Toys, games, marketing (Clone Wars, Shadows of the Empire, Force Unleashed) taking precedence over the other titles.

4. S-Cannon- Stuff that doesn't really contradict what happened but isn't necessarily cannon like star wars galaxies or empire at war.

5. N-Cannon- Everything rendered non-cannon from the release of the prequels, a change from a higher level of cannon, or the what-if stories.

So no, there always has been an understanding that the stuff published in the EU was not a secure part of the Star Wars universe.

 

[mr. peasant]

So basically he decided that it was his story and that even though he let other people add to it, he still had the final say, just like I have been saying.

The way I see it is akin to having an employee working on a project. Then, the boss comes along and decides to scrap the entire thing in favour of something else simply because he can. Yes, the boss is very much in his right to do so since the project, as part of the company, belongs to him but is still an unfortunate/*****ey thing to have happen for the employee.

Disney most likely will not pull the EU from the shelves, rather they will simply label them into a different continuity.

Interestingly enough, this was my point - the labels. The current EU books are labeled simply as 'Star Wars' on their cover; with Star Wars: The Old Republic tie-in merchandise labeled 'Star Wars: The Old Republic', etc. However, if the new trilogy, as the official/definite continuation of the Star Wars franchise, it should/would want to simply label itself as 'Star Wars'. However, as the old books are already out there and you can't change their covers, there's nothing you can do about them; hence the confusion.

And if books that would make sense to and books that won't make sense to a new fan are both given the same label, it leads to brand confusion and potentially deter them from buying any of them since it's made it much more difficult for them to know which ones to buy (it's not just a matter of which books they've already read).

 

[mr. peasant]

Thats not really accurate. There many levels of cannon, if one release was a higher level of cannon than another it was fair game to be overwritten.

1. G-Cannon- Anything that came from George himself (The films and the Holiday Special). Going in the order of the films, the scripts, the novelizations, the radio plays, etc.

2. T-Cannon- Anything from one of the Star Wars TV shows (Primarily Clone Wars or the untitled live action feature in development). The Clone wars has contradicted many things such as the previously established Clone Wars timeline, the killer of Adi Gallia being changed from Greivious to Savage Oppress, Asoka Tano's existence, etc.

3. C-Cannon- Everything in the EU, with major multimedia campaigns headed by Lucas with Toys, games, marketing (Clone Wars, Shadows of the Empire, Force Unleashed) taking precedence over the other titles.

4. S-Cannon- Stuff that doesn't really contradict what happened but isn't necessarily cannon like star wars galaxies or empire at war.

5. N-Cannon- Everything rendered non-cannon from the release of the prequels, a change from a higher level of cannon, or the what-if stories.

So no, there always has been an understanding that the stuff published in the EU was not a secure part of the Star Wars universe.

Yes, that is correct. However, as the editors of Lucas Licensing (including the person ultimately tasked with maintaining lore consistency) have said, their view - certainly in relation to G to C canon - is that they are all offering windows into the one same saga and continuity; just that the lower one goes down the canon ladder, the foggier the window gets. However, there's always a nugget of truth to the story.

Of course, Disney might very well take a different stance on the matter. I just think the decision of excising a huge chunk, content-wise, of the franchise's intellectual property and lore is something that isn't as foregone a conclusion as people seem to believe it is.

 

[uirate]

As far as the people running Lucas Licensing were concerned (prior to the announcement of the new trilogy), the movies, cartoon and EU were all one single continuity.

No they arent, you musnt be a big EU fan if you think that. Its been known for years that there has been a film only continuity, and film+EU Continuity.

"There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don't get too involved in the parallel universe."

Chee: "Anything not in the current version of the films is irrelevant to Film only continuity."

Chee: "The only relevant official continuities are the current versions of the films alone, and the combined current version of the films along with whatever else we've got in the Holocron."

"That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it."

Rostoni: "doesn't give us much information about his future movies until he's making them. In general, George does not take the EU into account when he's making his movies"

And thats only a few quotes, theres heaps of these. The fact of the matter is the EU holds no bearing on future movies.

 

[BenKenobi]

The way I see it is akin to having an employee working on a project. Then, the boss comes along and decides to scrap the entire thing in favour of something else simply because he can. Yes, the boss is very much in his right to do so since the project, as part of the company, belongs to him but is still an unfortunate/*****ey thing to have happen for the employee.



Interestingly enough, this was my point - the labels. The current EU books are labeled simply as 'Star Wars' on their cover; with Star Wars: The Old Republic tie-in merchandise labeled 'Star Wars: The Old Republic', etc. However, if the new trilogy, as the official/definite continuation of the Star Wars franchise, it should/would want to simply label itself as 'Star Wars'. However, as the old books are already out there and you can't change their covers, there's nothing you can do about them; hence the confusion.

And if books that would make sense to and books that won't make sense to a new fan are both given the same label, it leads to brand confusion and potentially deter them from buying any of them since it's made it much more difficult for them to know which ones to buy (it's not just a matter of which books they've already read).

I see what you're saying but DC still has plenty of readers and fans and they change their stuff up all the time. But still a new story eliminates the comparisons to the books, gives a chance to have something better, gives us an open ending we don't know the outcome of. Not to mention popular EU characters like Kyle Katarn, Darth Raven, and Thrawn, will probably end up in the planned Bond like endless spinoff films planned after the new trilogy.

I take it you really enjoy the EU, but theres a lot more good that can come from this than bad.

 

[mr. peasant]

I see what you're saying but DC still has plenty of readers and fans and they change their stuff up all the time. But still a new story eliminates the comparisons to the books, gives a chance to have something better, gives us an open ending we don't know the outcome of. Not to mention popular EU characters like Kyle Katarn, Darth Raven, and Thrawn, will probably end up in the planned Bond like endless spinoff films planned after the new trilogy.

I take it you really enjoy the EU, but theres a lot more good that can come from this than bad.

Actually, I've rarely read it. I think I might have picked up less than five and it must've been more than ten years ago.

I'm just pointing out that there are a number of drawbacks and major complications with discarding EU on the scale many are suggesting which may make Disney likely want to weigh up their options carefully as opposed to simply discarding it without much thought.

 

[Gianakin_]

Exactly. Or else he wouldn't have forbidden the writers to kill Luke and forced them to kill Chewie instead.

And the Yuuzhan Vong war is the best thing to have happened to SW outside the movies. Imo.

 

[uirate]

I'm just pointing out that there are a number of drawbacks and major complications with discarding EU on the scale many are suggesting which may make Disney likely want to weigh up their options carefully as opposed to simply discarding it without much thought.

Lets be real here, 95%+ of the people who went to the movies dont even know what the EU is. EU fans who read the novels only make up a small percentage of the total fanbase of star wars....

Only ******** post-rotj EU fanboys will be mad at the 100% decision that Disney+Lucasfilm will retcon it out into oblivion.

 

[mr. peasant]

Lets be real here, 95%+ of the people who went to the movies dont even know what the EU is. EU fans who read the novels only make up a small percentage of the total fanbase of star wars....

Only ******** post-rotj EU fanboys will be mad at the 100% decision that Disney+Lucasfilm will retcon it out into oblivion.

Wouldn't it be smarter to just continue remaining non-committal about it - neither confirming nor discarding it? That way, the amount of merchandise the new trilogy's prospective audience - many of whom would have seen neither previous trilogy - could be attracted to doesn't shrink.

 

[uirate]

Wouldn't it be smarter to just continue remaining non-committal about it - neither confirming nor discarding it? That way, the amount of merchandise the new trilogy's prospective audience - many of whom would have seen neither previous trilogy - could be attracted to doesn't shrink.

No. Its better to start fresh and hopefully Disney/Lucasfilm will have a stronger grip on what authors put into the novels...Since we do know its an 'original story' by lucas..

It was ******ed how powerful Luke, the Skywalker bloodline, and pretty much anything that followed became. It makes the PT Jedi(Which was referenced by Lucas to be the strongest ever) look like kids in comparison.

The Merchandise will sell regardless and the Post-ROTJ EU Fanboys will buy the novels in the new continuity regardless.

 

[SuperFerret]

The EU is basically professional fan fiction. The Star Wars story started in movies, so it'll officially continue in movies.

 

[BenKenobi]

Wouldn't it be smarter to just continue remaining non-committal about it - neither confirming nor discarding it? That way, the amount of merchandise the new trilogy's prospective audience - many of whom would have seen neither previous trilogy - could be attracted to doesn't shrink.

Disney has already said, it's going to be an original story. I really don't see where you're coming from with the merchandise at all. Star Wars is one of the biggest toybrands on the market, they even specifically say "brands such as fischer-price, Star Wars, etc" on the holiday ToysRUs commercials. And the amount of EU merchandise compared to the amount directly related to the films and tv-shows, is a ratio comparable to the moon and the sun. The merchandize isn't going to be hurt one bit, if anything it will see a new surplus, with all the new toys the films will produce.

As for attracting fans, whom have seen neither trilogy, eliminating obscure novels, comic books, and characters isn't going to do much of anything. If someone doesn't know who Darth Vader is, they definitely aren't going to know Darth Caedus or Darth Kryatt. The idea eliminating the EU will drive off a significant percentage of the potential audience is preposterous. Look at the prequels, Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones were horribly received by critics and fans alike, but fans still saw them anyway. That is much more discouraging to a prospective audience than, discarding the EU would be.

 

[Octoberist]

The EU is basically professional fan fiction. The Star Wars story started in movies, so it'll officially continue in movies.

Essentially, yes.

What Lucas has done with the EU is something that's way to big to repair or even to work with when it comes down to creative freedom. It was a sandbox of new stories and that was fun but now it has created a vacuum, which will be affected by the new movies no matter what.

But many have said it best here: The hardcore EU fans are a small but vocal crowd, and like with any licensed property, you can't make everyone happy.

 

[The Question]

Why does it matter if they ignore the EU when writing Episode 7? How does that effect or change anything? If you like the Eu, it's still there.

 

[DarKush]

^
I expect that the new film (s) will definitely alter the EU landscape. However, I hope that the current post-ROTJ EU continuity is allowed to continue or wrap up.

 

[mr. peasant]

I suspect the 'Star Wars: The Old Republic' aspect of the EU will be preserved since there is a major financial interest in doing so. In the long-term, the MMORPG could be a major cash cow for the franchise; especially once Bioware figures out its payment system. And interestingly enough, despite being set in the distant past, it borrows heavily elements (aliens/factions/locations/history/etc) from the post-ROTJ era works.

Why does it matter if they ignore the EU when writing Episode 7? How does that effect or change anything? If you like the Eu, it's still there.

I suspect that if Episode 7 renders the current post-ROTJ EU non-canon, the current EU franchise/setting/storyline/whateveryouwanttocallit will likely be discontinued in favour of producing content for the new, canon one.

 

[BATZARRO WWD]

It's time we talk about Sonic the Hedgehog.

Sonic the hedgehog was a series of early 90s games the plot of wich was that you had to run from left to right until you where forced to go to school. They adapted it into a cartoon, which expanded upon this by adding settings, themes, characters and motivations not present in the game. It ended, but that story went on on a series of comics.


Now near the turn of the century, thanks to advances in technology, the game series started adding it's own t series of themes and character motivations unrelated to the comics, as well as a large design overhaul. The comics eased this changes in slowly at first, and by now not only do they continue to exist, but they serve a rabid and complex fanbase.

What I'm saying is, it'd probably be easier to adjust EU to new canon than viceversa. Sure, no one likes hearing their favorite character is adopted/a dream/a shapeshifter/a timetraveler, but it can't be helped.

 

[Mace Dolex]

I wonder which continuity the Star Wars Holiday special falls in?

 

[Gianakin_]

Nowhere. Lucas has said he'd like to hunt down every copy and destroy it with an axe.

 

[mr. peasant]

But since it came from Lucas and it is the latest version of it(because thete is only one version of it), it technically counts as G-canon; the highest level.

 

[Gianakin_]

Well... technically. Lucas literally created a monster with that one, didn't he?

 

[Lord]

I remember in a question about the canonicity of the holiday special, Lucas saying that since it was made it was part of the EU

 

[Spikey]

Actually, the Holiday Special is C-Canon. Lucas had nothing to do with it.

"The special from 1978 really didn't have much to do with us, you know. I can't remember what network it was on, but it was a thing that they did. We kind of let them do it. It was done by... I can't even remember who the group was, but they were variety TV guys. We let them use the characters and stuff and that probably wasn't the smartest thing to do, but you learn from those experiences"

Something like the ANOES TV Series...

But... this is where Boba Fett first appeared, one of the most popular character of the franchise so...

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Actually, the Holiday Special is C-Canon. Lucas had nothing to do with it.

"The special from 1978 really didn't have much to do with us, you know. I can't remember what network it was on, but it was a thing that they did. We kind of let them do it. It was done by... I can't even remember who the group was, but they were variety TV guys. We let them use the characters and stuff and that probably wasn't the smartest thing to do, but you learn from those experiences"

Something like the ANOES TV Series...

But... this is where Boba Fett first appeared, one of the most popular character of the franchise so...

I'm pretty sure he wrote the script.