The "realism" thread

[LOBO3315a]

what what!? Missing the origin of the mask I fully give you, but how does changing a small aspect of the kidnapped girl flashback "butcher" all of Rorschach's story!?

Because it changed him from a vigilante (someone who seeks justice outside the law) into a killer (someone who kills helpless people).

Spoiler

Chaining a guy to a pipe, putting a hacksaw in front of him, dousing the place with gasoline all in silence while the guy literally confesses to killing Blaire Roche, and saying telling him “Shouldn’t bother trying to saw through handcuffs. Never make it in time,” is much different than driving a meat cleaver into the same guy's skull 15 or 20 times.

There's an element of giving Grice a chance at redemption in the book that isn't in the movie. When Grice dies instead of redeeming himself in the book, Rocharch's statement to Dr. Long is poetic.

Spoiler

Stood in firelight, sweltering. Bloodstain on chest like map of violent new continent. Felt cleansed. Felt dark planet turn under my feet and knew what cats know that makes them scream like babies in night. Looked at sky through smoke heavy with human fat and God was not there. The cold, suffocating dark goes on forever and we are alone. Live our lives, lacking anything better to do. Devise reason later. Born from oblivion; bear children, hell-bound as ourselves, go into oblivion. There is nothing else. Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. Streets stank of fire. The void breathed hard on my heart, turning its illusions to ice, shattering them. Was reborn then, free to scrawl own design on this morally blank world. Was Rorschach. Does that answer your questions, Doctor?

If that wasn't a 'butchering', I don't know what is....

 

[ALP]

Oh I fully agree, the change was not good(one of the few). But Rorschach remained 90% in tact was my only point.

 

[roach]

So i got into a discussion on the captain america threads and someone brought up the GA wouldnt believe a man in a red white and blue costume running around in WW2. Where are we getting our information on what the GA will believe?

 

[Chris Wallace]

That's what I want to know? Costumes are the #1 casualty of the "realism" movement, and not one, not ONE shred of tangible proof exists to support the argument that the GA will or won't buy this or that.

 

[roach]

honestly out of all the superhero movies that came out...not one failed because of the costume

and the stupid part is people say no one will believe cap running around in a flag suit and isnt that still what we are getting

 

[Punisher Rising]

I personally think realism in movies is overrated. Anything unrealistic or not can work so long as the team behind it takes it seriously and presents it in a way that even though it's unrealistic you still believe it as a result of good storytelling and presentation.

 

[roach]

I personally think realism in movies is overrated. Anything unrealistic or not can work so long as the team behind it takes it seriously and presents it in a way that even though it's unrealistic you still believe it as a result of good storytelling and presentation.

exactly

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

So i got into a discussion on the captain america threads and someone brought up the GA wouldnt believe a man in a red white and blue costume running around in WW2. Where are we getting our information on what the GA will believe?

Would have been as pissed if they made the costume the Ultimate WWII costume?

And it is a red, white, and blue costume. Just saying.

 

[roach]

and thats the funny part because we still are getting someone running around in a flag suit

 

[Chris Wallace]

honestly out of all the superhero movies that came out...not one failed because of the costume

and the stupid part is people say no one will believe cap running around in a flag suit and isnt that still what we are getting

Just a toned-down version. But you're right. Never has a superhero movie failed because of the costume. We've had movies where the hero wore tights & they did great, & we've had movies that didn't do well where the hero wore leather or rubber. We've also had the opposite in both cases. So where are we getting our information?

 

[roach]

Just a toned-down version. But you're right. Never has a superhero movie failed because of the costume. We've had movies where the hero wore tights & they did great, & we've had movies that didn't do well where the hero wore leather or rubber. We've also had the opposite in both cases. So where are we getting our information?

we are getting this from people who are short sighted..."the GA would never buy a man flying around in a red cape and boots"
"The GA would never buy a man swinging around the city in a spiderman costume."
These are the same people who feel Superman suit should be modernized or the only way to portray Batman is in heavy rubber.

What happened to imagination?

 

[Chris Wallace]

Directors who believe they know what moviegoers want. So they tell us what we find believable instead of asking.
In part I blame TV. The TV adaptations of superheroes were bombarding us with "real world" costumes long before their big screen counterparts. We got Captain America in a motorcycle helmet, cheesy Evil Knievel costume & a plexiglass shield. We got Spider-Man wearing outboard webshooters & vinyl boots. Daredevil in an all-black jumpsuit with a nightmask. And let's not forget Thor looking like a reject from the Mad Max movies. Because this is what they thought was needed in order to sell the characters. And despite the fact that every single one of those projects failed, the mentality remains intact.

 

[roach]

yeah the excuse for Daredevil was they couldnt film a red suit on TV...tell that to the Flash crew that filmed at the same time

 

[Chris Wallace]

So was Superboy.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Just a toned-down version. But you're right. Never has a superhero movie failed because of the costume. We've had movies where the hero wore tights & they did great, & we've had movies that didn't do well where the hero wore leather or rubber. We've also had the opposite in both cases. So where are we getting our information?

I think the "comic book feel" of a film died with Batman and Robin. I just don't believe that the GA reacts as much to a complete "comic book" movie.

Studios are afraid of coming off as a comic book film. Even Spider-man had dark colors. I don't think the GA reacts well to strictly comic book films unless they have that real world feel to them. Even the Spider-man films had that real world feel to it. Not "realism", but real characters and it's harder to get that with absurdity. Kick-ash is an example of that. I felt the best parts of the films were ones when the character felt real and it was a bit more grounded in reality.

It's easier to make and sell a film that doesn't have a bit more (for lack of a better word) realistic than a comic book feel. I just don't feel like many films even had a comic book feel to it. The only ones off the top of my head I felt had a complete comic book feel are the Schumacher Batman films, Iron Man 2 and the Superman films. Iron Man 1 was pretty faithful but it had a real world feel to it.

With Captain America, when you add the costume, you lose the real world feel. Keep in mind that Captain America would've been the only one in the film that would've had bright colors. When you lose that real world feel, you lose relatability and risk alienating the audiences. I'm not saying that would exactly happen, but if you're working for a studio why risk the possibility when you could gross as much (or more) with a modified suit.

I hope both of you understand that I'm not parading and championing "Realism", but trying to make people understand why Hollywood does the things it do.

 

[Project862006]

feel like snyders supes will break this realism curse lol

 

[Tacit Ronin]

feel like snyders supes will break this realism curse lol

What "realism" curse? How many "realistic" comic films have we seen since TDK?

 

[Red Mask]

Here we're going to discuss the concept of realism in comic book movies. It's a topic which I personally feel is being pushed too far, between the subdued fantasy aspects in movies such as Captain America (going for a more "military" looking costume rather than his traditional duds) and The Dark Knight, and the popularity of Kick-ash. It's little wonder so many fans are falling under this spell and saying they want things like a more home-made looking costume for Spider-Man or a more durable one for Superman. We seem to be forgetting that comic books are fantasy. Superheroes are not a part of the real world. Certain realistic aspects are fine, but while nobody wants to see another absurd nonsense-fest like Batman & Robin, we shouldn't let the pendulum get pushed too far the other way, lest we end up losing the things we love about these characters and stories in the first place.
Discuss.

I think it's a problem filmmakers will always face. These are our modern myths, but why does the audience accept today's supernatural films more easily than superheroes? Superhero costumes are so flashy designers try to make it feel more relevant. But would people prefer to dress up as superheroes, or would they prefer a Hogwarts uniform, vampire costume, or a Star Wars outfit?

 

[Bren]

I could EASILY imagine Mr. Freeze or some off the wall character making it into Nolan's batman world. Just like I could easily see Superman suddenly pop into existence flying over Nolan's Gotham.

It's Batman's (and the rest of the people's) REACTION to it that will make it 'realistic' or not. If the director or actor cannot get a realistic human reaction to seeing a blue and red flying man, it's not that flying guy's fault if it comes off as unrealistic.

It's how the 'realistic' people react to these improbable things, that makes the integration work.

Therefore, I just think any directors forgoing the comic elements are just doing it for two reasons. They don't want it, and/or their budgets won't allow it.

 

[El Payaso]

yeah the excuse for Daredevil was they couldnt film a red suit on TV...tell that to the Flash crew that filmed at the same time

Well there's a big difference. The Flash TV series used a very expensive suit with muscles in it and a very particular kind of red with a very particular texture to it. It seems obvious that the Trial of the Incredible Hulk production only had leotards in mind - and budget - for their Daredevil, so red wasn't really what looked like a serious option. When I think red leoptardss I think the Greatest American Hero, great series and all but a comedy.

 

[roach]

Well there's a big difference. The Flash TV series used a very expensive suit with muscles in it and a very particular kind of red with a very particular texture to it. It seems obvious that the Trial of the Incredible Hulk production only had leotards in mind - and budget - for their Daredevil, so red wasn't really what looked like a serious option. When I think red leoptardss I think the Greatest American Hero, great series and all but a comedy.

actually the reason given was technical...the red didnt film well is what they said

 

[roach]

With Captain America, when you add the costume, you lose the real world feel. Keep in mind that Captain America would've been the only one in the film that would've had bright colors. When you lose that real world feel, you lose relatability and risk alienating the audiences. I'm not saying that would exactly happen, but if you're working for a studio why risk the possibility when you could gross as much (or more) with a modified suit.

I hope both of you understand that I'm not parading and championing "Realism", but trying to make people understand why Hollywood does the things it do.

not to start an arguement but what is this based on????
Has there been a superhero movie that had bright costumes and the GA couldnt get into it?
Why is the costume the main source of real world feel and relatability????

 

[El Payaso]

actually the reason given was technical...the red didnt film well is what they said

But you're aware of how expensive the Flash's suit was and that the Incredible Hulk TV movies couldn't even get the transformations right (in fact they were far worse than in the old series) because of the budget.

 

[roach]

what does that have to do with making DD black instead of red?

 

[El Payaso]

what does that have to do with making DD black instead of red?

The kind of leotard they used for DD in TTOTIH movie in red doesn't sound a good idea. And the Flash TV series suit example doesn't sound too good because of what I explained. Sure, the suit was great but hey it was an extremely expensive and innovative with an elaborated texture and all, it was far from being the same thing as the DD regular spandex. That's why red didn't sound a good idea.

And it's not like DD black spandex was wonderful either. But black at least made a little more believable since he looked like a Ninja.