The "realism" thread

[roach]

My feelings are these comic movie worlds should be just like ours up until a radioactive spider gives a kid spider powers or a baby alien lands in a cornfield in Kansas

 

[metaphysician]

I actually disagree somewhat: "secret history" is a very useful trope, and neat if done well.

 

[The Overlord]

In terms of realism in these movies, I think a problem I had with the Captain America movie is that it didn't feel like a movie set in WWII.

There were hardly any real Nazis and Red Skull and Hydra had all this outlandish tech in the 1940s. Also Red Skull should be more like Amon Goeth and less like Cobra Commander. The movie didn't feel like it was set in the real second World war, just some theme park version of WWII.

 

[roach]

I actually disagree somewhat: "secret history" is a very useful trope, and neat if done well.

i don't mean by time...i mean these worlds should be just like ours but if someone gets bitten by a radioactive spider they get powers

 

[metaphysician]

i don't mean by time...i mean these worlds should be just like ours but if someone gets bitten by a radioactive spider they get powers

I'm not sure what your saying, exactly. Is it that people shouldn't be "super", until they have a good reason? That's been true of every comic book movie.

Is it that only tiny bits of the world should ever change? Then I disagree, the existence of "weirdness" should have *some* effect beyond the individual level. Otherwise you get schlock, by and large.

 

[weezerspider]

In terms of realism in these movies, I think a problem I had with the Captain America movie is that it didn't feel like a movie set in WWII.

There were hardly any real Nazis and Red Skull and Hydra had all this outlandish tech in the 1940s. Also Red Skull should be more like Amon Goeth and less like Cobra Commander. The movie didn't feel like it was set in the real second World war, just some theme park version of WWII.

If its a film about a guy who gets super-strength from a formula in a bottle, its not to far of a stretch that someone(Mainly Hyrda) has lazer guns.

 

[metaphysician]

If its a film about a guy who gets super-strength from a formula in a bottle, its not to far of a stretch that someone(Mainly Hyrda) has lazer guns.

More importantly, its a film that from the getgo placed itself not in Historical WWII, but *Pulp* WWII. I can see being disappointed that it was not a dark gritty war story, but you shouldn't be *surprised* by this midway through the movie.

 

[The Overlord]

More importantly, its a film that from the getgo placed itself not in Historical WWII, but *Pulp* WWII. I can see being disappointed that it was not a dark gritty war story, but you shouldn't be *surprised* by this midway through the movie.

I don't care, I didn't like the atmosphere for the whole movie because of the lazer guns in WWII. Its too pulpy, it doesn't feel like WWII, at all. I'm big history buff and my favorite subject is WWII, so having a WWII movie with no Nazis and laser guns doesn't fly with me, it ruined the whole movie for me. Plus it ruined Red Skull for me, he is one of favorite Marvel villains. What makes him work in the comics he is an racist, sadistic and unbelievably cruel villain, not some some power mad Cobra Commander wanna be. At least in Indiana Jones, he fought he Nazis and the Nazis had real guns, this felt like a Sat morning cartoon then a piece of pulp comparable to Indiana Jones. These don't seem like changes to enhance the story, they seem like changes to make the film more PC and not offend anyone.

Captain America is supposed be an optimistic character, but he is an nightmarish environment, serving in the bloodiest conflict in human history, fighting a truly nightmarish enemy. The comics themselves have touched upon this. Cap should represent hope in a hopeless world, not be a player in some Sat morning story. Replacing the Nazis, history's greatest villains, with GI Joe villains is just bad.

If its a film about a guy who gets super-strength from a formula in a bottle, its not to far of a stretch that someone(Mainly Hyrda) has lazer guns.

Suspension of disbelief only goes so far, there has to be internal logic to a story. So I can accept a few changes to a story set during WWII, like Cap getting his powers from a bottle, but doesn't mean I am going to accept massive changes of how WWII was actually fought. Just because this is a fictional story, doesn't mean I am going to accept anything the writer decides to throw at me, that's not good story telling and audiences shouldn't accept that logic.

And in the comics, WWII was the real WWII, with a few differences. Sure Cap got his powers from a bottle, but he was still fighting Nazis and then mainly used real guns. Its even true to the comics, it seems like some mandate to make things more politically correct then any sort of interesting telling. I could accept laser weapons in modern times, but in WWII, that just doesn't work for me.

 

[The Question]

In terms of realism in these movies, I think a problem I had with the Captain America movie is that it didn't feel like a movie set in WWII.

There were hardly any real Nazis and Red Skull and Hydra had all this outlandish tech in the 1940s. Also Red Skull should be more like Amon Goeth and less like Cobra Commander. The movie didn't feel like it was set in the real second World war, just some theme park version of WWII.

What's funny is that all the tech in the film was based on real Nazi prototypes that didn't work because the appropriate power source didn't exist.

Parts of the movie felt very WWII to me. I think the big problem is really that the pacing was a little off and Red Skull was a little flat.

 

[Travesty]

I guess you didn't like any of the Indiana Jones movies?

 

[The Overlord]

I guess you didn't like any of the Indiana Jones movies?

Indiana Jones movies had Nazis as the villains and they used real guns, something the Captain America movie didn't have.

 

[DrCosmic]

^And it was still very pulpy. Cap:TFA wasn't pulpy, it was cartoony. The most memorable part was the saturday morning cartoon song and dance routine. The cartoony take probably had a lot to do with the villain being flat, for instance. I got the impression that they didn't take him seriously, didn't think of him as a serious superhero. I think after the second time he rode a motorcycle (???) out of an explosion I figured they didn't think to highly of the concept.

What's funny is that all the tech in the film was based on real Nazi prototypes that didn't work because the appropriate power source didn't exist.

Parts of the movie felt very WWII to me. I think the big problem is really that the pacing was a little off and Red Skull was a little flat.

Lots of bad movies have kernels of good ideas in them. Do all this research on Nazi prototypes... then take on the Nazis.

I'm not sure what your saying, exactly. Is it that people shouldn't be "super", until they have a good reason? That's been true of every comic book movie.

Is it that only tiny bits of the world should ever change? Then I disagree, the existence of "weirdness" should have *some* effect beyond the individual level. Otherwise you get schlock, by and large.

I think he's referring to the idea that there should be a single premise for a movie. The spider-bite is what changes the world, not, after the spider is bitten, then anything can happen. Or, I might be projecting my own point of view

If its a film about a guy who gets super-strength from a formula in a bottle, its not to far of a stretch that someone(Mainly Hyrda) has lazer guns.

Stretching is bad. Things flow organically in a good film, from premise to conclusions. When you throw stuff in there because "If you love cheerios, you'll love tastee-ohs!" then you lose people. Most of the audience isn't limber at all. Stretching is bad.

 

[The Question]

Lots of bad movies have kernels of good ideas in them. Do all this research on Nazi prototypes... then take on the Nazis.

At the very least, the theatrical edit left that fairly vague. It would be pretty easy to watch the film version and assume that HYDRA is still apart of the Nazi regime, simply a subdivision of them like the SS, and Cap's primary mission was dealing with them the same way the OSS primarily dealt with the SS. I mean, sure, The Red Skull killed those three guys from Berlin, but it's entirely possible that he was planning to turn on Hitler AFTER the war (a trait he did have in the comics) and simply killed them to keep them quiet and because he didn't like them.

It's the director's cut that makes it explicit that HYDRA split off from Germany and is a third faction in the war fighting both the Allies and the Axis, which is dumb for several reasons and they were glad to cut all overt references to that out.

 

[The Overlord]

At the very least, the theatrical edit left that fairly vague. It would be pretty easy to watch the film version and assume that HYDRA is still apart of the Nazi regime, simply a subdivision of them like the SS, and Cap's primary mission was dealing with them the same way the OSS primarily dealt with the SS. I mean, sure, The Red Skull killed those three guys from Berlin, but it's entirely possible that he was planning to turn on Hitler AFTER the war (a trait he did have in the comics) and simply killed them to keep them quiet and because he didn't like them.

It's the director's cut that makes it explicit that HYDRA split off from Germany and is a third faction in the war fighting both the Allies and the Axis, which is dumb for several reasons and they were glad to cut all overt references to that out.

Except the reason he killed those 3 Nazis that Hitler sent to check were killed because they noticed that Berlin was one of the targets that Red Skull was planning to attack. After Red Skull even said after he killed those guys that Hydra had to separate from the Third Reich.

In the comics Red Skull seemed like he wanted to take over the Reich in a subtle manner, perhaps quietly assassinate Hitler and then take over when he was dead, after the war. In this movie it seemed like his big plan was to attack both the Reich and the allies with lasers and really it just seems pretty stupid. Red Skull loses all his subtle planning and manipulation skills and becomes a silly cartoon villain who has no sense of planning and tactics, he seems more lucky then actually intelligent.

Plus it doesn't make sense that Hitler would exile Red Skull from his inner circle and then give him all the resources he can ask for with very little supervision. Hitler killed anyone within in the Nazi party who thought was a threat to his power in the Night of the Long Knives, including SA leader Ernst Röhm, who had been his friend in the past. There is no way Hitler would have let Red Skull build a separate power base from the Third Reich and let the red Skull do as pleased with such little supervision.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I hate the word "realism", because its always used as a code word for "dark, gritty, low level."

I think this mentality is more prevalent among fans than filmmakers.

Good movies don't need realism, they need *verisimilitude*. They don't need to be consistent with reality, they just need to be consistent with their own established rules.

Agreed.

 

[weezerspider]

I don't care, I didn't like the atmosphere for the whole movie because of the lazer guns in WWII. Its too pulpy, it doesn't feel like WWII, at all. I'm big history buff and my favorite subject is WWII, so having a WWII movie with no Nazis and laser guns doesn't fly with me, it ruined the whole movie for me. Plus it ruined Red Skull for me, he is one of favorite Marvel villains. What makes him work in the comics he is an racist, sadistic and unbelievably cruel villain, not some some power mad Cobra Commander wanna be. At least in Indiana Jones, he fought he Nazis and the Nazis had real guns, this felt like a Sat morning cartoon then a piece of pulp comparable to Indiana Jones. These don't seem like changes to enhance the story, they seem like changes to make the film more PC and not offend anyone.

Captain America is supposed be an optimistic character, but he is an nightmarish environment, serving in the bloodiest conflict in human history, fighting a truly nightmarish enemy. The comics themselves have touched upon this. Cap should represent hope in a hopeless world, not be a player in some Sat morning story. Replacing the Nazis, history's greatest villains, with GI Joe villains is just bad.



Suspension of disbelief only goes so far, there has to be internal logic to a story. So I can accept a few changes to a story set during WWII, like Cap getting his powers from a bottle, but doesn't mean I am going to accept massive changes of how WWII was actually fought. Just because this is a fictional story, doesn't mean I am going to accept anything the writer decides to throw at me, that's not good story telling and audiences shouldn't accept that logic.

And in the comics, WWII was the real WWII, with a few differences. Sure Cap got his powers from a bottle, but he was still fighting Nazis and then mainly used real guns. Its even true to the comics, it seems like some mandate to make things more politically correct then any sort of interesting telling. I could accept laser weapons in modern times, but in WWII, that just doesn't work for me.

Because America putting faith in their whole European campaign on one super soldier is not a drastic change from how the war was fought.

 

[weezerspider]

Stretching is bad. Things flow organically in a good film, from premise to conclusions. When you throw stuff in there because "If you love cheerios, you'll love tastee-ohs!" then you lose people. Most of the audience isn't limber at all. Stretching is bad.

You guys grew up reading too much comics. To most of the GA, the whole idea of Captain America is just as farfetched as the Hyrda weapons. Not to mention the whole idea of Hyrda getting mythical weapons is a spin off REALITY. Hitler and the Nazi's really did hunt for ancient relics. In Marvel's universe, the relics happen to have powers...like Indiana Jones.

 

[The Overlord]

Because America putting faith in their whole European campaign on one super soldier is not a drastic change from how the war was fought.

Not as much as laser weapons and a entire German division deciding to break off from the Third Reich would. Changing who the enemy was, Hydra instead of the Nazis, changes things far more then anything you mentioned. Cap was just one soldier at the end of the day, but being a symbol of hope in a dark period of history makes him a legend more then him just being solider with super abilities. In the comics, Cap himself never single handily turned the course of the war, but he did help inspire others to do so. There was never any indication in the comics that Cap won the war by himself.

But taking Cap out WWII and putting some Sat morning cartoon adventure fighting silly "Dick Dastardly" type bad guys instead of the worst monsters in history, lessens his status as symbol of hope. The point of Cap being a symbol of hope works when fighting the red Skull, a symbol of the hatred, tyranny and cruelty of the Nazi system. By taking away the Red Skull's Nazi underpinnings and he just becomes another bad guy. A hero is measured against his villains and by not putting Cap against Nazis, he seems less effective, like he was involved in some side adventure instead of the real war.

 

[dark_b]

this debate ends here

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/...n-dark-knight-trilogy-exclusive-clip/2841403/

 

[Brother Jack]

Indeed. Leave it to Nolan to define what the intent should be.

 

[747]

I love both approaches, as long as they are done well. I love Nolan's psuedo-realistic Batman trilogy, but I also love Burton's more fantastical Batman world. Loving one thing, doesn't exclude loving other things.

 

[Lord]

I'm not sure what your saying, exactly. Is it that people shouldn't be "super", until they have a good reason? That's been true of every comic book movie.

Is it that only tiny bits of the world should ever change? Then I disagree, the existence of "weirdness" should have *some* effect beyond the individual level. Otherwise you get schlock, by and large.

I don't see anything Cryptic in what he said lol

 

[roach]

Not as much as laser weapons and a entire German division deciding to break off from the Third Reich would. Changing who the enemy was, Hydra instead of the Nazis, changes things far more then anything you mentioned. Cap was just one soldier at the end of the day, but being a symbol of hope in a dark period of history makes him a legend more then him just being solider with super abilities. In the comics, Cap himself never single handily turned the course of the war, but he did help inspire others to do so. There was never any indication in the comics that Cap won the war by himself.

But taking Cap out WWII and putting some Sat morning cartoon adventure fighting silly "Dick Dastardly" type bad guys instead of the worst monsters in history, lessens his status as symbol of hope. The point of Cap being a symbol of hope works when fighting the red Skull, a symbol of the hatred, tyranny and cruelty of the Nazi system. By taking away the Red Skull's Nazi underpinnings and he just becomes another bad guy. A hero is measured against his villains and by not putting Cap against Nazis, he seems less effective, like he was involved in some side adventure instead of the real war.

I wish they had keep they movie closer to the original comics than what we got. In the original comics he became Cap before America joined the war. During this time he was like a super operative...think James Bond with a suit and powers keeping America safe from Nazi saboteurs and fifth columnists.
WW2 is Hollywood's favorite war. The GA has seen several depictions of it. I think going with a high science fiction version of it was a mistake. IMO the only fantastical elements should have been Cap and Skull.

 

[Green Goblin]

I love both approaches, as long as they are done well. I love Nolan's psuedo-realistic Batman trilogy, but I also love Burton's more fantastical Batman world. Loving one thing, doesn't exclude loving other things.

 

[Lord]

While i do like the idea of a James Bond in WW2 type of film i do liked what they did with the first half a lot, there are things there i would change too like Red Skull and making the futurism more pulpy, some of those parts shown in the film looked too much like modern science fiction, it was painfully obvious with the high use of lights and blue during the World's Fair scenes.

But i think Steve's scenes up until he rescued Bucky were very well done and interesting, if the rest of the film had been that good i'm sure it would have been one of the best Comic book movies. For that i blame the script.

As "realism" in these movies, well, what i liked about Sam Raimi's Spider-man, Nolan's Batman and Iron Man 1 was that while it was still hyper realism the films felt like they could take place in the real world, they didn't entirelly feel like cartoons, and still paid homage to the source material. With the rest of MCU's films the setting feels a little too cartoony for my taste, i like to see films that have some corny elements or cartoon elements, but in those films it usually feels too weird, like the heroes are never in danger, even when it's supposed to seem like they are.....if that even makes sence