Homecoming The Spider-Man Skepticism Thread

[Dark Raven]

Like Dark Raven suspects, the high school stuff could be more of an afterthought.

When did I suspect this?

 

[2kt09]

When did I suspect this?

I don't think this movie is going to end up like a John Hughes film at all to be honest, apart from a forced framework of trying to pigeon hole everyone into certain roles from the Breakfast Club. Maybe that's the only one that Jon Watts watched?

There are more Hughes movies though, and many more inspirations from his movie to draw from which could've resulted in a more faithful Spider-Man adaptation.

^ That's the impression I got.

 

[Dark Raven]

^ That's the impression I got.

That wasn't to do with any high school setting. I was talking about John Hughes specifically and how I didn't think Jon Watts was going to probably pull off that aspect all that well because he seems to be trying to force it all into the Breakfast Club mould without necessarily understanding what makes John Hughes films tick in general.

I think he should've not tried to rip off the Breakfast Club but imagine he were making a Hughes film that isn't that film, using other elements that would normally be present.

But even if he did try to rip off the Breakfast Club, he could've done a better job by having a jock who is insecure about things in the form of Flash Thompson, instead of some Draco Malfoy copy.

And the traditional Mary Jane would've also fitted with John Hughes by having a party girl who seems superficial but under the surface there is actually more to her. Instead, it seems that Watts wants to make MJ this basket case and wallflower whom Peter overlooks, but then goes through a transformation at the end to become the MJ we all know. But he's picked completely the wrong arc for her.

 

[2kt09]

That wasn't to do with any high school setting. I was talking about John Hughes specifically and how I didn't think Jon Watts was going to probably pull off that aspect all that well because he seems to be trying to force it all into the Breakfast Club mold without necessarily understanding what makes John Hughes films tick in general.

I think he should've not tried to rip off the Breakfast Club but imagine he were making a Hughes film that isn't that film, using other elements that would normally be present.

But even if he did try to rip off the Breakfast Club, he could've done a better job by having a jock who is insecure about things in the form of Flash Thompson, instead of some Draco Malfoy copy.

And the traditional Mary Jane would've also fitted with John Hughes by having a party girl who seems superficial but under the surface there is actually more to her. Instead, it seems that Watts wants to make MJ this basket case and wallflower whom Peter overlooks, but then goes through a transformation at the end to become the MJ we all know. But he's picked completely the wrong arc for her.

Essentially still means the same thing for me.
Using "Hughes" and "Breakfast Club" as marketing buzzwords rather than a sincere representation of what to expect.

 

[X Knight]

That wasn't to do with any high school setting. I was talking about John Hughes specifically and how I didn't think Jon Watts was going to probably pull off that aspect all that well because he seems to be trying to force it all into the Breakfast Club mould without necessarily understanding what makes John Hughes films tick in general.

I think he should've not tried to rip off the Breakfast Club but imagine he were making a Hughes film that isn't that film, using other elements that would normally be present.

But even if he did try to rip off the Breakfast Club, he could've done a better job by having a jock who is insecure about things in the form of Flash Thompson, instead of some Draco Malfoy copy.

And the traditional Mary Jane would've also fitted with John Hughes by having a party girl who seems superficial but under the surface there is actually more to her. Instead, it seems that Watts wants to make MJ this basket case and wallflower whom Peter overlooks, but then goes through a transformation at the end to become the MJ we all know. But he's picked completely the wrong arc for her.

bingo.

 

[Web-Head]

Wrong thread

 

[Golgo-13]

So long as he doesn't say "Awesome" and "wicked cool" too many times i might actually enjoy this.

 

[Web-Head]

So long as he doesn't say "Awesome" and "wicked cool" too many times i might actually enjoy this.

We already know he says awesome a few times.

 

[harryoscop]

So long as he doesn't say "Awesome" and "wicked cool" too many times i might actually enjoy this.

But he's a kid! How will people know if he doesn't say awesomeeee & wickeeeeddd, sweeet all of the time??? That is totally uncool, bruh!

 

[ironwez20]

Spiderman says that all the time tho. You just never noticed before cause it was so subtle.

 

[jasontodd]

I think Harry's concerns and criticisms are valid and he has every righr to post them in peace in the skepticism thread without people swooping in to defend this movie that no one has seen yet.

 

[X Knight]

I think Harry's concerns and criticisms are valid and he has every righr to post them in peace in the skepticism thread without people swooping in to defend this movie that no one has seen yet.

 

[PeterBenParker]

Whole point of the SKEPTICISM thread, after all..

 

[jasontodd]

Not for this movie though. I will never understand the pass that this film is receiving on every change big and small. Now cue the defenders jumping in to this thread and eventually bringing up the fact I love Batman V Superman as an example of me being a hypocrit despite the deviations from the source material in that film being nowhere near as numerous as they are in Spider-Man Homecoming.

 

[harryoscop]

Not for this movie though. I will never understand the pass that this film is receiving on every change big and small. Now cue the defenders jumping in to this thread and eventually bringing up the fact I love Batman V Superman as an example of me being a hypocrit despite the deviations from the source material in that film being nowhere near as numerous as they are in Spider-Man Homecoming.

Yeah. The same thing is happening with this movie:

When it changed nowhere near the amount of Homecoming. Yet you have people trying to argue Peter not immediately becoming Spider-Man after Ben's death is worse than all of the numerous changes Homecoming has made to Spidey. Yet they're okay with MCU having an unnecessary arc of him becoming what he always was that stretches to three movies.

 

[Matt Parker]

Ok, not to turn this into a BVS debate thread, jasontodd, as you have every right to enjoy BVS, but I'd argue that making Batman a ruthless killer is fundamentally changing the character. Making Peter a fan of the Avengers and changing some of the supporting cast isn't the same (in my personal opinion) as changing the heroes' moral compass.

 

[NealKenneth]

I'm a big fan of Spidey whose just popping in to say I'm very skeptical of this film.

Unlike every other MCU film to this point, I'm getting the vibe that this film was made by a commitee. The screenplay has five writers listed (and probably a few more unlisted.) Not a good sign. On top of that, the casting has been odd. It's just weird to me, as a lifelong fan of Spider-Man, to watch a trailer for his film and not be able to identify almost anyone in it except Peter himself. Aunt May doesn't look like Aunt May, I don't know who his best friend is supposed to be, and if Mary Jane was in it, I didn't see her.

I do like what's happening with some of the changes. Aunt May is younger, which is a bit more realistic, and Tony Stark is now in something of a mentorship role. This allows for a possible relationship to begin between Tony and Aunt May. All of these things feel natural to me and it's a great use of an interconnected universe.

But the trailer was bad. Maybe some of the past Marvel trailers have been forgettable, but they've never been bad. This one gave away far too much and some of the visuals looked strange to me. Like the shot of Spider-Man holding together the boat with his webs...it just looked terribly fake. Then there is all thse promo photos with Peter in a yellow jacket of some kind....honestly these two visuals stick out to me as things we might have seen in a potential ASM3. How much control does Sony have here?

I want it to be awesome, and Holland was a perfect choice. But I gotta bad feeling about this...

 

[harryoscop]

It would be ironic if it ended up with a similar RT score as the first TASM film. I personally think it's only going to make a bit more than TASM. This movie ain't hitting that 1 Bil & Sony is going to be disappointed when it doesn't. They're hoping that by constantly highlighting Robert's Stark & heavily involving him in the story, Spider-Man will join the Billion dollar club.

 

[ironwez20]

Not for this movie though. I will never understand the pass that this film is receiving on every change big and small. Now cue the defenders jumping in to this thread and eventually bringing up the fact I love Batman V Superman as an example of me being a hypocrit despite the deviations from the source material in that film being nowhere near as numerous as they are in Spider-Man Homecoming.

First off no his points arent valid they are just complaints that have been shot down over and over, and second are you serious right now? BVS took way worse liberties then this movie did. Lex luthur, doomsday superman himself? Please. Don't even go there. So your saying it's ok to complain about things we don't know but but BVS should get a pass? Ok

As a spiderman fan I'm skeptical but Harry goes overboard praying for the movie to fail. It may suck but hey if it does say bye bye to spiderman for awhile. That's somthing I don't want to see.

 

[NealKenneth]

It would be ironic if it ended up with a similar RT score as the first TASM film. I personally think it's only going to make a bit more than TASM. This movie ain't hitting that 1 Bil & Sony is going to be disappointed when it doesn't. They're hoping that by constantly highlighting Robert's Stark & heavily involving him in the story, Spider-Man will join the Billion dollar club.

I think I said it in another thread but I predict the WW gross for this film will be exactly $10 million for every percentage point on RottenTomatoes. There's no way it's going under 70% or over a billion.

 

[harryoscop]

First off no his points arent valid they are just complaints that have been shot down over and over, and second are you serious right now? BVS took way worse liberties then this movie did. Lex luthur, doomsday superman himself? Please. Don't even go there. So your saying it's ok to complain about things we don't know but but BVS should get a pass? Ok

As a spiderman fan I'm skeptical but Harry goes overboard praying for the movie to fail. It may suck but hey if it does say bye bye to spiderman for awhile. That's somthing I don't want to see.

Lex Luthor was still rich, a narcissistic maniac with a massive ego, a mad scientist (in line with original Lex & Birthright Lex who actually had red hair just like movie Lex) he was still a genius & he still hated Superman. He became bald too. He was just cartoonishly & annoyingly over-the-top but he still had the basic character traits of Lex Luthor.

Doomsday was still a Kryptonian experiment gone wrong, still had his ability to adapt to any attack, still resembled his character, still was a mindless beast (original Doomsday) & still killed Superman.




Superman was EVERYTHING comic Superman was except his attitude which was more mopey because of the realistic world around him.


Is Ned anything like his character at all? No.


Is Flash anything like his besides being a bully? No.


Is Sally Avril anything like her character? Obviously.. Not given who they cast.


Why does Betty Brant Brandt* look exactly like Gwen & have the characteristics of Sally Avril & Gwen (popular girl)


Peter is not independent anymore, he's obsessed with impressing Tony Stark, he plays like his Robin what with Stark scolding him and this goes against the purpose of Spider-Man's entire reason for being created. He needs to prove himself to Stark when he never gave a damn about him or any other hero, he was focused on being who HE wanted to be. This happened btw:

Spoiler

We'll never see any of that because he worships these guys in the MCU. Oh, and he acts ridiculously childish & he's annoying when he does this because it's a caricature.


Jason Lonello, Tiny Mceever & Sally are basically names from the comics they slapped onto some random students.


Herman Schultz is called the Shocker but he punches things now instead of "shocking" them with super sonic vibrations and he has ONE Gauntlet! WTF? I'm inclined to call him Shocker in name only but I'm waiting to see more on him.


No, Homecoming is was less faithful than BvS. Don't let the subjective quality of the film itself sway you, man.

 

[ironwez20]

Lex Luthor was still rich, a narcissistic maniac with a massive ego, a mad scientist (in line with original Lex & Birthright Lex who actually had red hair just like movie Lex) he was still a genius & he still hated Superman. He became bald too. He was just cartoonishly & annoyingly over-the-top but he still had the basic character traits of Lex Luthor.

Doomsday was still a Kryptonian experiment gone wrong, still had his ability to adapt to any attack, still resembled his character, still was a mindless beast (original Doomsday) & still killed Superman.




Superman was EVERYTHING comic Superman was except his attitude which was more mopey because of the realistic world around him.


Is Ned anything like his character at all? No.


Is Flash anything like his besides being a bully? No.


Is Sally Avril anything like her character? Obviously.. Not given who they cast.


Why does Betty Brant Brandt* look exactly like Gwen & have the characteristics of Sally Avril & Gwen (popular girl)


Peter is not independent anymore, he's obsessed with impressing Tony Stark, he plays like his Robin what with Stark scolding him and this goes against the purpose of Spider-Man's entire reason for being created. He needs to prove himself to Stark when he never gave a damn about him or any other hero, he was focused on being who HE wanted to be. This happened btw:

Spoiler

We'll never see any of that because he worships these guys in the MCU. Oh, and he acts ridiculously childish & he's annoying when he does this because it's a caricature.


Jason Lonello, Tiny Mceever & Sally are basically names from the comics they slapped onto some random students.


Herman Schultz is called the Shocker but he punches things now instead of "shocking" them with super sonic vibrations and he has ONE Gauntlet! WTF? I'm inclined to call him Shocker in name only but I'm waiting to see more on him.


No, Homecoming is was less faithful than BvS. Don't let the subjective quality of the film itself sway you, man.

Lex luthor is not some joker knockoff who is a child and is some crazy lunatic. Lex luthor is a alpha male who hates superman and is a calm and reserved man who deals in business usually always has an ace in the hole.

Doomsday is a spikey monster that is not made from zodd and is bassically bred to kill. So what if he killed superman it was still half assed.

Yea superman was definatly superman. Killing people,not enjoying his job, an all around somber attitude. Are you serious right now? He snapped a man's neck. If spiderman were to even remotely do something like that you'd faint

Then theirs batman. Who literally brands people so they can be killed in jail. How messed up is that. He's a good batman but come on thats more out of character than anything this spiderman has done.
Flash..... scrawny but still a bully.... Haven't seen the movie so don't even know how he even acts.

Ned. Yea he's awful

Zendaya- Don't know. Haven't seen the movie.

Aunt may. Pretty much may but younger. Haven't seen much of her.

Peter. Enough of this tony stark obsessed crap. He's not obsessed with tony stark he admires him like a hero. Is that abit of of character yes but it may change. Again how do you know its spiderman in name only. So your saying this spiderman is less faithful than neck snapping , I don't really want to save the world superman? All cause he likes tony stark a little bit? Please!
Did you miss the part in the trailer where he literally says I'm sick of him treating me like a kid? And I got to do this on my own? Your mind blocks out positive and only looks for negative. He literally goes against what stark tells him to do. Instead of sitting there waiting for stark to handle it he goes after vulture on his own ....... cause thats the character growth.

You haven't seen the movie your just twisting things up cause it's not what you wanted. Less faithful than bVS? Please. Superman literally tackles a guy through several walls saving Lois. Thats in character to you?

The suit
The school
Ned
Stark suiting up
and Pretty much how the story flows is what has me on edge tho.

Now don't get me wrong either i'm not here to say that you can't be skeptical, thats fair enough but I just felt the need to debate you on some of these claims you've been making. In the end you may be right, I don't know but from what i've seen It's not following all the things you say it is.

For example Uncle ben being relevant. He's relevant

I agree with the suit. I cringed at the whole spider drone thing. thats just stupid imo.

 

[harryoscop]

Lex luthor is not some joker knockoff who is a child and is some crazy lunatic. Lex luthor is a alpha male who hates superman and is a calm and reserved man who deals in business usually always has an ace in the hole.

Doomsday is a spikey monster that is not made from zodd and is bassically bred to kill. So what if he killed superman it was still half assed.

Yea superman was definatly superman. Killing people,not enjoying his job, an all around somber attitude. Are you serious right now? He snapped a man's neck. If spiderman were to even remotely do something like that you'd faint

Then theirs batman. Who literally brands people so they can be killed in jail. How messed up is that. He's a good batman but come on thats more out of character than anything this spiderman has done.
Flash..... scrawny but still a bully.... Haven't seen the movie so don't even know how he even acts.

Ned. Yea he's awful

Zendaya- Don't know. Haven't seen the movie.

Aunt may. Pretty much may but younger. Haven't seen much of her.

Peter. Enough of this tony stark obsessed crap. He's not obsessed with tony stark he admires him like a hero. Is that abit of of character yes but it may change. Again how do you know its spiderman in name only. So your saying this spiderman is less faithful than neck snapping , I don't really want to save the world superman? All cause he likes tony stark a little bit? Please!
Did you miss the part in the trailer where he literally says I'm sick of him treating me like a kid? And I got to do this on my own? Your mind blocks out positive and only looks for negative. He literally goes against what stark tells him to do. Instead of sitting there waiting for stark to handle it he goes after vulture on his own ....... cause thats the character growth.

You haven't seen the movie your just twisting things up cause it's not what you wanted. Less faithful than bVS? Please. Superman literally tackles a guy through several walls saving Lois. Thats in character to you?

The suit
The school
Ned
Stark suiting up
and Pretty much how the story flows is what has me on edge tho.

Now don't get me wrong either i'm not here to say that you can't be skeptical, thats fair enough but I just felt the need to debate you on some of these claims you've been making. In the end you may be right, I don't know but from what i've seen It's not following all the things you say it is.

For example Uncle ben being relevant. He's relevant

I agree with the suit. I cringed at the whole spider drone thing. thats just stupid imo.

Dude, there's a difference between an INO which Homecoming is crawling with and an existing character in which additional traits are added. Fact of the matter is, Lex was still Lex, Doomsday was still Doomsday, Batman damn sure was still Batman (whose killing problem is being dealt with in JL. I didn't like it either, man) Superman was still Superman-- who killed because he HAD to. Zod would have kept killing & killing until Superman stopped him.

None of those changes compare to Homecoming which is nonchalantly ruining characters. Aunt May is not Aunt May. She can't cook, she loves Rock, she goes to parties.. That ain't May. That's the opposite of who she is. You agree with me regarding Ned, but you can't honestly believe Batman is less faithful than him or anybody in this cast not named Adrian Toomes & Tony Stark. They didn't even bother.

And he's not just a fan of Stark, he is OBSESSED. The plot is him proving himself to Stark. That's why he goes after Toomes, that's why he wants to stop the Illegal weapons on the Ferry, because he wants to be like him! "I was just trying to be like you" It's sooooo dumb. And not relevant to who he was suppose to be. Why can't he be independent from the start? Why does he have to connect to Iron Man, this way? Why couldn't he have a small role? Why does he have to be the motivation for EVERYBODY? (Toomes, Mason, Shocker, Parker) Argh!

 

[ironwez20]

Dude, there's a difference between an INO which Homecoming is crawling with and an existing character in which additional traits are added. Fact of the matter is, Lex was still Lex, Doomsday was still Doomsday, Batman damn sure was still Batman (whose killing problem is being dealt with in JL. I didn't like it either, man) Superman was still Superman-- who killed because he HAD to. Zod would have kept killing & killing until Superman stopped him.

None of those changes compare to Homecoming which is nonchalantly ruining characters. Aunt May is not Aunt May. She can't cook, she loves Rock, she goes to parties.. That ain't May. That's the opposite of who she is. You agree with me regarding Ned, but you can't honestly believe Batman is less faithful than him or anybody in this cast not named Adrian Toomes & Tony Stark. They didn't even bother.

And he's not just a fan of Stark, he is OBSESSED. The plot is him proving himself to Stark. That's why he goes after Toomes, that's why he wants to stop the Illegal weapons on the Ferry, because he wants to be like him! "I was just trying to be like you"

Bro do you even hear yourself? She can't cook? Spiderman is in name only but superman snapping necks and acting like a damaged hero is ok? Batman killing people is all good just so long as it's cleaned up in the justice league movie. Superman doesn't kill just like Spiderman doesn't praise tony stark. It's part of the character but BVS gets a pass.....k

Ok sooooo if Peter beats up stark in infinity war will you say this is the definitive spider-man? Even if this movie screws up everything?
And no he's not obsessed. He literally defies stark. He wants to be a hero. He is told to let other handle it and he doesn't cause "he's sick of people treating him like a child". The cops are even chasing him in DC.
And YES Batman doesn't freaking brand people so they get killed in jail. Ned leeds is the only character i've seen so far who is supposed to be a different character, he was put in the movie so they wouldn't use harry which I think is stupid.

 

[harryoscop]

Bro do you even hear yourself? She can't cook? Spiderman is in name only but superman snapping necks and acting like a damaged hero is ok? Batman killing people is all good just so long as it's cleaned up in the justice league movie. Superman doesn't kill just like Spiderman doesn't praise tony stark. It's part of the character but BVS gets a pass.....k

Ok sooooo if Peter beats up stark in infinity war will you say this is the definitive spider-man? Even if this movie screws up everything?
And no he's not obsessed. He literally defies stark. He wants to be a hero. He is told to let other handle it and he doesn't cause "he's sick of people treating him like a child". The cops are even chasing him in DC.
And YES Batman doesn't freaking brand people so they get killed in jail. Ned leeds is the only character i've seen so far who is supposed to be a different character, he was put in the movie so they wouldn't use harry which I think is stupid.

Yes, cooking is a part of May's character. The fact that she tries to do it in Homecoming & fails horribly is almost like they're poking fun at the real Aunt May.

Batman killing criminals sucked hard, hated it. But at least it's being corrected in the sequel. It was suppose to be bad, we weren't suppose to like it. "We're criminals, Alfred. Nothing's changed".-"Oh yes it has, Bruce. Everything's changed. That's how it starts, the fever, the rage. That turns good men cruel" Everything else about Batfleck was one of my favorite movie Batmen. The comic-accurate costume, the amazing fighting, the voice, the Batcave, the Batfamily history (that will be explored in Nightwing & Batgirl movies) Irons' Alfred & Affleck's Bruce Wayne. There was a lot done right that softened the blow for me.


An inexperienced Superman killing an unstoppable enemy as a last resort " is not in the same realm as Spider-Man, a character built from his independence- becoming Stark's sidekick. He's tired of being treated like a kid because Stark won't take him seriously. It's not about him wanting to prove to himself he's a good hero, he wants to prove it to Tony Stark. That's why he defies Stark, It is not about him taking back his independence from Stark. It'd be a different story if we didn't get this line in the trailer "I was just trying to be like you". He should be defying Stark because Toomes has to be stopped and because it's the right thing to do to stop him.

What about Flash, Michelle, Betty, Sally, Jason, and everybody else? Nobody is who they're suppose to be.


And yes, if Peter fights Stark in Infinity War, he will be redeemed, but I'll still be annoyed that his arc in Homecoming had to revolve around him. Just like Toomes & his crew getting screwed over by him.


The suit is a completely different topic. Another thing that makes him not faithful. He's essentially Iron-Kid in that suit. Spiron-Man indeed.