Homecoming The Spider-Man Skepticism Thread

[Rorschach2012]

I think Sony is just obsessed with setting this movie apart from the rest of the Spider-Man movies that they're desperately doing anything they can to be fresh and new. But if it ain't broke...

 

[Mistah K88]

Well, Cindy is speculated to be Cindy Moon aka Silk's alter ego, as for Jorge & Abraham, probably. Yeah. But even if they don't have iconic looks, I don't see why they had to have those classic names from the comics. Sally has always been the the stuck-up, "hot girl' archtype. SSM expanded on that & made her awesome. Betty kinda does have an iconic look, the brunette bob look. (only the 60s show had her different) but Betty in this movie is a hybrid of both her & Gwen. It's baffling. Jason Lonello was another bully that hated Peter.

They didn't even try to make anybody look like the comics. They basically just picked out a bunch of names from the early comics & randomly slapped them onto these characters they've created for the movie. Like, what's the point? Do they think they're pleasing fans because those names are in the movie? Or...? Why couldn't they follow the SSM route & pull characters from the comics but actually have them be those characters? Greg Wiseman should have been the producer instead of Eric Carroll

Well Spectacular Spidey changed characters too. Let's look at Ned!

I mean in Spectacular he didn't look the same as they changed his race to Korean (and took the last 2 letters from his last name). He was also a reporter for the Daily Bugle...who we've seen asking Betty Brant out....and got an assignment to learn more about the superhero scene in New York...specifically the Green Goblin...which with Hobgoblin being planned for season 3...

Hmm... Yeah I see your point

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

I don't have a huge problem with INO secondary/tertiary characters or original characters in general. It just seems like a bit of a waste what with there being so much to draw from the Spidey universe already.

 

[Richard Grayson]

I also liked how Wiseman's Spectacular Spider-Man followed the motto of "never making original characters" because Spider-Man's mythos & array of supporting characters is so vast that they'd never need to. Clearly that idea is lost over at Marvel with the addition of "Michelle" as a main character in this movie.

Agreed. It feels like Marvel/Sony are avoiding classic elements to separate from previous incarnations but I was really hoping for a Spectacular-like adaptation

 

[GuestStar2004]

I think Sony is just obsessed with setting this movie apart from the rest of the Spider-Man movies that they're desperately doing anything they can to be fresh and new. But if it ain't broke...

Whose to say that isn't marvels part in all of this?

Alot of what i seen of this movie seems more marvel-ish to me since Sony were very cautious and paranoid with TASM while this new movie seems abit to relaxed and confident with its direction.

 

[Dark Raven]

Well Spectacular Spidey changed characters too. Let's look at Ned!

I mean in Spectacular he didn't look the same as they changed his race to Korean (and took the last 2 letters from his last name). He was also a reporter for the Daily Bugle...who we've seen asking Betty Brant out....and got an assignment to learn more about the superhero scene in New York...specifically the Green Goblin...which with Hobgoblin being planned for season 3...

Hmm... Yeah I see your point

Are you saying Ned won't look good in the Hobgoblin suit?

 

[harryoscop]

^ Exactly. Ned was Asian but he was still recognizable as Ned. They didn't make him into Ganke from Miles Morales, they respected the source material. Ned Lee was still Ned Leeds.

Spider-Man is Marvel's biggest character. He is the jewel on the crown. Such an amazing icon. He is a very different type of hero because he is quite simply: the greatest superhero of all-time."

It's a shame that Homecoming as a whole is not celebrating that fact. Since it's so removed from the iconic, recognizable Spidey franchise everybody loves. And they're certainly not treating him like a king over at Marvel Studios given his new-found dependence on Tony Stark in his first movie

 

[harryoscop]

It's obvious that Eric Carroll (Avi Arad 5.0) and Jon Watts don't share the same passion for Spider-Man that Kevin Feige does. Given how dismissive both of them are of the source material. (they literally are in interviews, Carroll moreso) Feige's original Homecoming pitch to Pascal was wayy closer to the comics (MJ was in Ned's role as well as Oscorp) & his original ideas from those 2015 interviews told the story of a Spider-Man who was much more inline with his comic self. Somewhere along the way, something definitely changed & made them go in a radical direction with everything from Peter himself to his supporting cast.

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

It's a shame that Homecoming as a whole is not celebrating that fact. Since it's so removed from the iconic, recognizable Spidey franchise everybody loves. And they're certainly not treating him like a king over at Marvel Studios given his new-found dependence on Tony Stark in his first movie

To be fair, they could certainly be setting him up for a triumphant final swing shot that celebrates everything he is and should be.

 

[harryoscop]

To be fair, they could certainly be setting him up for a triumphant final swing shot that celebrates everything he is and should be.

I don't know, Carroll said he's afraid of heights & that we won't be getting any epic skyscraper swing shots like the last movies. He wants him to "work up" to taking bigger swings throughout the series

 

[Shikamaru]

It's obvious that Eric Carroll (Avi Arad 5.0) and Jon Watts don't share the same passion for Spider-Man that Kevin Feige does. Given how dismissive both of them are of the source material. (they literally are in interviews, Carroll moreso) Feige's original Homecoming pitch to Pascal was wayy closer to the comics (MJ was in Ned's role as well as Oscorp) & his original ideas from those 2015 interviews told the story of a Spider-Man who was much more inline with his comic self. Somewhere along the way, something definitely changed & made them go in a radical direction with everything from Peter himself to his supporting cast.

Can you link me to some of the things they said that would imply this?

If you've done this before I apologize. I don't come here often so I just ran into this post while skimming.

 

[harryoscop]

Ok, let me rack up some of their quotes:Watts made Peter go to a magnet school:

So I sent him to a math and science high school because that’s the kind of school that Peter Parker would go to like a public, magnet school you have to test into.

Carroll's reasoning for why Ben isn't in the movie:

, I don’t… I mean, we’re implying he’s dead. We have not at all, again, gone into trying to change his origin story as far as I have been envisioning it. But we, just again, we thought that to keep this fun, light tone, as soon as they have to have their, like, ‘Let’s remember our dearly departed father figure’ – it derails that a little. And again, what we’re trying to tell is this sort of fun story of the kid who is doing all the wrong things for the right reasons. And once you do that, it stops becoming a sort of sun movie about a kid trying to be a kid. He’s mourning the loss of a parent.

Carroll talking about why he & others thought everything should be different:

Carroll: No. We figured, honestly, if there was a way to do this movie without mentioning anyone who has been in any of the past films with the exception of a couple of staples, like Flash and Aunt May, that might be a good thing to do to help people… when that first trailer comes out, we want people to be like, ‘Every frame of this feels different.’ And if you have Flash and Osborn and the gang there, it’s like, ‘We’ve just seen this.’

 

[Shikamaru]

That's not them being dismissive of the source material. In the case of Watts it's just a preference; and in Carroll's case that's him not understanding tone. There's things to be debated about that, but it has nothing to do with what one thinks of the source material.

I was expecting something that sounds more prick-ish. Just goes to show the skepticism crowd have their own reactionary side.

 

[harryoscop]

It gets worse, though. Here is Carroll talking about how he thinks Peter having a Daily Bugle job is overachieving:

Eric Carroll: No. We toyed with it for a while, but again, we didn’t want to go down that road right away and if we do do a Daily Bugle, we want to do it in a way that feels contemporary. Working in a newspaper while fighting crime and overachieving, it just felt like one of those things where like… maybe it’s in his future? Maybe it’s what he does in college or something like that. But for now, no.

And here is him completely dismissing Spider-Man's origin story:

: “If you’re 15 and you get Spider-Man’s powers, you don’t go straight down to the power of responsibility. You don’t go straight down the heavy-is-the-head type thing. This would be fun. This would be amazing. This would be better than going home to ride a dirt bike.”

If that's not being dismissive of the source material, I don't know what is. This man & the rest of the producers don't understand nor do they care about the comics.

Watts sent Tom to a magnet, science school in the Bronx because he wanted Peter to go to one in Homecoming. He's be no means as bad as Carroll but he clearly didn't care about the unique dynamic Peter had in the comics of being the only/one of the only nerds. And a consequence of the this decision is how Flash was changed to be an Academic rival & all of his friends becoming Mathletes. I wish he wasn't coming back for the sequel.

Caroll shading the comics:

Long story short, we tried to look through the comics and pull out all of the sort of fun and wacky things that Steve [Ditko] did, which seemed even harder to explain when he built it in his own bedroom.

 

[Flint Marko]

But we looked past it when the Webb movies skipped over the bugle. Right?

 

[GuestStar2004]

I think it was always assumed we would see the bugle at some point in TASM series.

With this new spider-man i think the expectation was so high that the moment Marvel had some involvement in the series fans expected everything they wanted would be there, nicely rebooted and comic accurate... but it seems like they have gone even further into their own direction while keeping Peter a kid and wanting to treat him as a kid.

 

[I Am The Knight]

He was working for Jameson in ASM2. We just never actually saw Jameson or the Bugle, but we saw Peter sending pictures of Spider-Man to Jameson and talking about with in Aunt May, since he was doing it to financially help her out a little bit.

Anyway, even if Webb had said "f*** the Bugle!" that shouldn't mean that a new version cannot be criticized for dismissing a classic aspect of the mythos.

 

[PeterBenParker]

He was working for Jameson in ASM2. We just never actually saw Jameson or the Bugle, but we saw Peter sending pictures of Spider-Man to Jameson and talking about with in Aunt May, since he was doing it to financially help her out a little bit.

Anyway, even if Webb had said "f*** the Bugle!" that shouldn't mean that a new version cannot be criticized for dismissing a classic aspect of the mythos.

Well said.

 

[Richard Grayson]

Those quotes do make me worry about the fact that many classic players like MJ might never show up in this series. If that really is the case, it will be very disappointing. Many of us did hope for a more comic accurate Spider-Man when Marvel got the rights back. Feige clearly likes MJ as a character but who knows what's happening because right now it looks like 'Michelle' will be the main love interest in the MCU series

 

[harryoscop]

Idk, MJ is being alluded to in Homecoming. (The redhead rescue scene & the drama club members) I don't think Feige has forgotten about her. Michelle seems to only be in this movie because Watts wanted an Ally Sheed type character. MJ doesn't fit into that archetype & I hope Watts Carroll didn't try to force her into it.

 

[Richard Grayson]

Idk, MJ is being alluded to in Homecoming. (The redhead rescue scene & the drama club members) I don't think Feige has forgotten about her. Michelle seems to only be in this movie because Watts wanted an Ally Sheed type character. MJ doesn't fit into that archetype & I hope Watts Carroll didn't try to force her into it.

That makes me feel a bit better. Can you point out what the redhead rescue and drama club things are? I think Feige genuinely likes MJ and views her as the love interest for Spidey so I can't see him completely ignoring her. Depending on the plans, I wonder if they wanted to just hold off on MJ until they get to college. That would also be somewhat dissapointing since I don't think that'll happen till movie 3 or 4

 

[Poppy]

Those quotes do make me worry about the fact that many classic players like MJ might never show up in this series. If that really is the case, it will be very disappointing. Many of us did hope for a more comic accurate Spider-Man when Marvel got the rights back. Feige clearly likes MJ as a character but who knows what's happening because right now it looks like 'Michelle' will be the main love interest in the MCU series

I think MJ fans just to need patient. There is no reason to not bring MJ back, her last time on screen was 10 years ago. I think we got lucky when Sony decided to cut Shailene scenes. If MJ had been in TASM I would be worried but she wasn't.
MJ is famous among the audience, look at the buzz she got when Zendaya was cast. Buzz means money which is what this franchise is after.

And why would Marvel drop hints like with the redhead stunts? If anything, this scene is going to bring even more buzz around MJ once the movie is released.
People want what they can't get, if Marvel had given us MJ in the first one, people would have just complained, claiming that "Homecoming a copy of Raimi" or whatever.

Now I'm hoping that MJ is going to be in the sequel. Sharon Carter (Steve Rogers main love interest) was also introduce in the sequel of their trilogy.

It would be nice to see May bring up the date between Peter and MJ (without naming her of course) and have Peter like “May, blind dates are so lame, we are not in the 60′s anymore” . I want them to have a slow development so I don't want MJ to appear in the third movie but at the same time, Peter had girlfriends before MJ so her not showing up in the first one makes sense. Besides the 'hit girl' spot will be open since Liz is going to leave HS in homecoming. They had no reason to make Liz leave yet they did. Who knows, maybe "Michelle"/MJ is going to be the Gwen/MJ friendship we got in Spectacular?

As for Michelle, Zendaya said many times she wasn't a love interest. She clearly has a crush on Peter, but so did a lot of girls in the comics and it didn't lead anywhere (like Debra for instance).

 

[harryoscop]

That makes me feel a bit better. Can you point out what the redhead rescue and drama club things are? I think Feige genuinely likes MJ and views her as the love interest for Spidey so I can't see him completely ignoring her. Depending on the plans, I wonder if they wanted to just hold off on MJ until they get to college. That would also be somewhat dissapointing since I don't think that'll happen till movie 3 or 4

Sure thing: These set pics that came out a few months ago:

Spoiler

There was a third redhead in a white dress, but I can't find the pic? The first one is wearing an outfit ripped straight out of the comics:

Pretty deliberate reference to MJ. As for the DC go to IMDB (I'll post a link after I edit) and you'll see they'll be featured in the movie. Who was a member of the Drama club in their HS years? MJ. Who starred a drama soap opera? Also MJ. So they're definitely leaving little easter eggs for the fans.

http://m.imdb.com/title/tt2250912/fullcredits/cast


Poppy brings up a good point about Sharon Carter. And with Liz not looking to be in the next movie (she's graduating as a Senior), it makes sense that MJ could come back & fill that gap.

 

[Shikamaru]

It gets worse, though. Here is Carroll talking about how he thinks Peter having a Daily Bugle job is overachieving:

"Overachieving" means doing better than expected. Sounds like he's saying Peter Parker's luck wouldn't land him a job at the Bugle as a high school kid. I don't agree with it myself, but it's not "disrespecting the source material".

Let's face it, the real reason the Bugle isn't in this is to differentiate it from the other films. Another reason is to focus on the other aspects of the film they clearly put more attention on (again, going back to the main reason). Lastly there's not much incentive for Peter to support his aunt when Tony's helping you out - who, again, might not be there after Homecoming.

And here is him completely dismissing Spider-Man's origin story:

That's actually a very Spider-Man thing. Peter still used his powers irresponsibly in most high school versions. He learned the message, but it doesn't mean you'll perfectly and immediately put it to use in practice. The same is true of this Peter (and yes, we know from Civil War he already heard/learned the message).

If that's not being dismissive of the source material, I don't know what is. This man & the rest of the producers don't understand nor do they care about the comics.

Watts sent Tom to a magnet, science school in the Bronx because he wanted Peter to go to one in Homecoming. He's be no means as bad as Carroll but he clearly didn't care about the unique dynamic Peter had in the comics of being the only/one of the only nerds. And a consequence of the this decision is how Flash was changed to be an Academic rival & all of his friends becoming Mathletes. I wish he wasn't coming back for the sequel.

I don't know what "magnet science school" means relative to the other students. I know plenty of "magnet schools" that are actually schools within bigger schools and where the other students outnumber the "magnet students".

But even if what you're saying is true, that's no more "disrespecting the source material" than other changes from plenty of other films. Changes like this occur all the damn time. I can say I'm not a fan of it, but it doesn't mean he's "disrespecting the source material".

Caroll shading the comics:

This is meaningless. He's basically saying "how could an indoor sheltered dude like Ditko create this fun wacky world?" It's a commentary on how isolated Ditko was to everyone else, even to other Marvel creators.

To me "disrespecting the source material" is something that looks down on the source material with a smug/elitist attitude. Zack Snyder saying he "made Superman grow up" is disrespecting the source material. None of the things you listed count as that. You can disagree with them, I kinda do too, but that's different from what you're saying.

 

[Shikamaru]

Here's another question: is there anything in particular they took as inspiration/influence from the USM cartoon? I'm hearing this one thrown around too.

I mean something specific to that cartoon. Someone mentoring Peter isn't something exclusively from the cartoon, since a) it's happening here for different reasons and b) the idea existed in the Ultimate Spider-Man comics.