How did Ben change Peter? A voicemail at the end doesn't signify anything about the character's journey. You have yet to explain how Ben's death taught Peter responsibility. Hell by your own admission the moment that he embraced being Spider-man had nothing to do with Ben.
It was him accepting his path. When he listened the voicemail, it sealed the deal, gave him the healing he needed so could become THE Spider-Man. It was pretty clear when this happened:
Peter embracing his future.
But we already know that Ben has an impact on Peter because the character flat out told us in the first scene. Whether or not it factors into this first movie does nothing to change that, as it's already a more faithful origin than the pathetic one in TASM.
When it's being retconed that he doesn't care about responsibility, yes it does. It's the least faithful origin to date, just like this is the least faithful adaptation in general. Yes, I compare it to FFINO because it has the same characteristics in how it's treating an existing property. Doesn't mean it'll be a terrible film like FFINO but the creative decisions do parallel each other in my opinion. Change for the sake of being different than before. That's the tactic Kinberg used. (he literally said it)
Nope! Nothing's being changed, just different parts of the character might be brought to the spotlight this time around.
"He doesn't go straight to the power of responsibility, he doesn't go straight to heavy is the head type thing" That's exactly what he sounded like when he gave that speech to Tony. Carroll is describing Spider-Man's character as it is traditionally portrayed BEFORE Uncle Ben dies. "With Great Power, Comes Great Fun"
Everything you can list about the changes made in Homecoming are surface details. I've already listed the biggest damning change made in TASM, and it's far bigger than a surface detail. You're not going to ever debunk it.
No they're totally not. They're radical changes that fundamentally change the original intent & spirit of certain elements. Can you honestly tell me what we're seeing of Ned is a surface change & the core of the character is intact? You keep going back to the minor Uncle Ben rearrangement TASM made but every change in Homecoming is minor to you? When Peter's red & blue suit has an Iron Man A.I in it, that's not a big change? Peter's friends being reduced to Mathletes (no offense Mathletes) is not a huge change to the original dynamic of the supporting cast from the comics and cartoons? When the whole point is suppose show him as an outcast: an outsider. Because he's one of the only ones with scientific brilliance. So, what, that's an itty-bitty part of his character that never mattered in the grand-scheme of things, right?
"There was nothing else to add"
You have yet to explain any of this, Harry. You can't just say "Ben obviously had an impact on Peter" and leave it at that. We saw the character die, but you have yet to explain what changed in Peter where he accepted the guilt and responsibility associated with this moment and how that drives him as Spider-man. ou didn't because you can't and you never will, because Ben's death was relegated to an obligatory "check the box" moment that had no real impact on Peter that manifested itself in a tangible change where he learned the responsibility of having these great powers. Again, you've shot your own foot here by admitting that the scene on the bridge was that moment, but that moment had nothing to do with Ben teaching Peter anything.
Fine, when Ben dies, Peter feels guilt because he indirectly causes it to happen. This leads to him becoming a vigilante and vigorously search for the man who shot Ben BECAUSE of his guilt & anger. This eventually leads him into conflict with Captain Stacy "He's not a vigilante, he's an anarchist" which leads him to the bridge encounter with the Lizard in which he realizes he can help people. Stop people from experiencing the tragedy & grief he's endured all of his life. After he discovers Conners is the Lizard, he then realizes he is responsible for what happened to him. Becomes the hero NYC needs & stops the Lizard & saves Conners. After this, he listens to Ben's voicemail & it brings closure to this story because he embraces his new responsibility. Uncle Ben is what sets him on the path to becoming Spider-Man and he's the one who seals it in the end. It's pretty straghtfoward.
What I find interesting is how critical you were about Peter not learning "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility" until the end of the movie.. But seem perfectly okay with Marvel stretching out this lesson & journey to becoming the classic Spider-Man for THREE films! And I know you're going to say "He knows because Ben died" but that's contradictory to what Carroll & Tom said. Hell, even the Russos said he wouldn't "necessarily come to that realization yet" This is a far bigger change than TASM's ONE movie character arc. Homecoming seems to be the story of Peter learning to accept his place & for some reason they've gave him parts of Tony Stark's arc from Iron Man 3 "Does the suit make the man?" Which is sooooooo dumb & ridiculous because it does not apply to the character of Spider-Man at all. He has NEVER relied on somebody else's technology to do what he does because he was always independent. He never relied on a high-tech suit period. That's another huge change. "I'm nothing without this suit" This again, goes back to my point about them changing pre-existing traits & aspects of his character to fit THEIR story,
But all of this seems okay to you? He's the definitive Spider-Man?
Can you please explain how this the best interpretation we've seen in your opinion? I'm legitimately baffled & curious to hear your side of the coin.
Yes it does matter, because this Peter is doing what he does because of Uncle Ben. The same can't be said for the last Peter.
He's a wannabe hero because of Ben. Period. That's all he learned from his death. TASM Peter learned from Ben's death & it was echoed throughout the film.
Read that last paragraph and then your quote about how you "used to" do the things I accused you of. No, Harry, you're still that guy. Hell last page you just compared Homecoming to FFINO. Your arguments are still as baseless and driven by emotion as ever.
Stay salty
[/quote] Because the comparison is valid. If all of my arguments are driven by emotion, then that must apply to every angry fan pissed at Homecoming who have the same complaints I do. Everything I'm skeptical of comes from facts & statements from the crew.
