Homecoming The Spider-Man Skepticism Thread

[Dark Raven]

To become Robin to Stark's Batman

Peter will be the orphan that Tony accidentally agrees to take in while he is smitten with Aunt May. Then, when he needs to get hold of a piece of equipment, he agrees to train Peter because he's flexible and expendable.

 

[harryoscop]

Spoiler

"I got to stop him."
"But we have a Spanish quiz!"
"Ned, do you really think The Avengers care about a Spanish quiz?"

 

[harryoscop]

Based on the trailers, his whole motivation seems to be "when am I going to be an Avenger?". I don't like it to be honest.

Yep, Holland himself confirmed that that's the main thing he cares about in this movie.

Cosroo -- the problem with that argument is the assumption that all 15 year-olds are going to be obsessed with Tony Stark & the Avengers. The original comics is proof tha this is not the case for Spidey. People always try to bring up Amazing #1 as a callback to what Peter is doing in this movie. But they fail to realize their motivations were completely different. One was doing it put of necessity because he was being responsible & wanted to contribute to his struggling household. When he found out the Fantastic Four weren't getting an annual salary, he told Reed Richards off & ditched them. MCU is doing it because he's a fanboy of the Avengers. Peter admired Reed Richards in the og comics but he wasn't an obsessive fanboy like Holland (literally calling Happy every time he stops a crime)


Ultimate Peter was antagonistic towards to the Ultimates in the beginning. He had no intentions or desire to be part of a bigger team until Fury told him he has no choice. Afterwards, he slowly warmed up to the idea until Ultimatum when he took a bullet for Cap. But there was never a "prove himself" to the Ultimates because he was focused on doing his OWN thing. That was entirely Miles Morales' thing in his first story arc


And I would personally have less of a problem if it were Cap. Because they go together ideologically better than Peter & Stark. And so far the Stark/Peter relationship in Homecoming has been unbearable.

 

[-Arya-]

Yep, Holland himself confirmed that that's the main thing he cares about in this movie.

Yeah....that's not sitting well with me. I don't think this film is going to do too well with critics. Could be wrong though.

 

[jasontodd]

Spoiler

"I got to stop him."
"But we have a Spanish quiz!"
"Ned, do you really think The Avengers care about a Spanish quiz?"

That's not from the actual movie is it?

 

[Mysteryman]

Yep, Holland himself confirmed that that's the main thing he cares about in this movie.

Cosroo -- the problem with that argument is the assumption that all 15 year-olds are going to be obsessed with Tony Stark & the Avengers. The original comics is proof tha this is not the case for Spidey. People always try to bring up Amazing #1 as a callback to what Peter is doing in this movie. But they fail to realize their motivations were completely different. One was doing it put of necessity because he was being responsible & wanted to contribute to his struggling household. When he found out the Fantastic Four were getting a salary, he told Reed Richards off & ditched them. MCU is doing it because he's a fanboy of the Avengers. Peter admired Reed Richards in the og comics but he wasn't an obsessive fanboy like Holland (literally calling Happy every time he stops a crime)


Ultimate Peter was antagonistic towards to the Ultimates in the beginning. He had no intentions or desire to be part of a bigger team until Fury told him he has no choice. Afterwards, he slowly warmed up to the idea until Ultimatum when he took a bullet for Cap. But there was never a "prove himself" to the Ultimates because he was focused on doing his OWN thing.


And I would personally have less of a problem if it were Cap. Because they go together ideologically better than Peter & Stark. And so far the Stark/Peter relationship in Homecoming has been unbearable.

Yeah, but, there is no way Tom is going to tell us any lessons Peter might learn during his personal journey in this film.
So, If Peter has different priorities at the conclusion of the movie, Tom cannot tell us that.

 

[harryoscop]

Spoiler

And to me, that's why Holland's comments about being based on Ultimate Peter/Spidey both confuse & anger me. He's NOTHING like the Ultimate version

 

[Shikamaru]

I actually don't understand all the complaints about Peter wanting to be an Avenger. If the film's about him coming to the realization he doesn't / shouldn't, where's the issue? That's what you call a character arc.

It's like complaining about Matt wanting to kill Fisk in Episode 8 of Daredevil. He eventually realized he was wrong so why would that bother anyone?

 

[Cosroo]

It's just a shame that this is the version they have to follow because of the... dare I say it? Forced entry of the character in Civil War. The set up was, Tony barges into Peter's life and basically recruits a 15 year old to fight for him because...uh, he's Spider-Man, or something. Regarding the comics Harry, this is a mash up of all the Spidey comics into one character, I thought. So whatever we know about previous comics and what he did in those is irrelevant, they SHOULD go by those, but some reason, they've gone off road with it all and made this version, some Frankenstein's monster Peter Parker.

We can only hope that it's the marketing making him seem a little obsessive, with the whole 'I'm going to call Happy each and every time I save a cat from a tree' As I've said in other posts, the main problem with this incarnation is that it's going off of two different universes so Sony/Marvel are trying there very hardest to set it apart from Garfield/Maguire, so they're really, really pushing the child Spider-Man, I believe the key word they're going for is endearing. I think all of it is meant to be endearing.

 

[-Arya-]

I actually don't understand all the complaints about Peter wanting to be an Avenger. If the film's about him coming to the realization he doesn't / shouldn't, where's the issue? That's what you call a character arc.

It's like complaining about Matt wanting to kill Fisk in Episode 8 of Daredevil. He eventually realized he was wrong so why would that bother anyone?

Sure if by the end of the film, that is his outlook I will be fine with it. I just don't think that will happen due to Infinity War happening next year and presumably Spiderman will be in there fighting with the Avengers.

 

[Shikamaru]

That made me think though, if the roles were reversed, and Spidey was always trying to impress Captain America, would you guys still have a problem with that?

I think relative to Cap, the choice to use Tony is in poorer taste.

First, Tony is Marvel's poster boy for irresponsibility. If there's anything Peter should learn from him, it's how to not be like him as much as possible.

Second, there's the background history of the characters. If you go back to the 1960s, both Peter and Tony were created in response to the youth movements. Peter was who those activists saw themselves as, Tony was the corporate archetype they despised. With Iron Man, Stan Lee wanted to challenge himself and see if he could turn that archetype into a successful superhero.

Third, there's the real-life politics. I don't know how much of a political junkie you are, but a lot of people (myself included) attribute the economic problems Millennials face to reactionary responses to the 60s. Basically after that decade, the West's elites came to the conclusion young people had to be more disciplined. How do you achieve that? Raise tuition costs, increase the presence of Big Business in their lives, etc. So when you see the 1960s' symbol for youth autonomy now answer to Tony "I have to control everything" Stark, that combined with fact #2 add another layer of poor taste.

Basically these three factors create a sense of poor taste I don't think I'd have as much with Steve Rogers.

 

[harryoscop]

I actually don't understand all the complaints about Peter wanting to be an Avenger. If the film's about him coming to the realization he doesn't / shouldn't, where's the issue? That's what you call a character arc.

It's like complaining about Matt wanting to kill Fisk in Episode 8 of Daredevil. He eventually realized he was wrong so why would that bother anyone?

It'll be great when it's over. But the point is-- it's still a character arc they forced on Peter along with the dumb "Does the suit make the man?" bs that's not relevant to Peter at all & never has been. These arcs are unnecessary & contrived to connect him to Stark & the Avengers.

Cosroo I'm mainly seeing Ultimate cartoon in Holland. That's what he seems to be more than anything else. Annoying, childish, petty & irresponsible. As you can see in the scans I posted, Ultimate Peter is 5x more mature than Holland & he has none of the attitude or sass from the early 616 Peter.

 

[Cosroo]

That is also another key point, that the arc feels unnecessary, this film feels like an entire stepping stone to get to the actual film we want, however, this isn't a Netflix series where we can binge watch the entire thing and still have 5 episodes left, it's a 2 year wait for each one.

If there is no resolution by the end of this film, and Peter doesn't mature, that'll be the biggest disappointment of them all.

 

[Shikamaru]

It'll be great when it's over. But the point is-- it's still a character arc they forced on Peter along with the dumb "Does the suit make the man?" bs that's not relevant to Peter at all & never has been. These arcs are unnecessary & contrived to connect him to Stark & the Avengers.

This is also the first time we're getting Spidey in a pre-established world. He's usually one of the first five superheroes to show up. I think it's natural for this Peter to want to be an Avenger.

 

[Cosroo]

Shika, all of those are very interesting points, only saddens the entire purpose of the pair that little bit more. Maybe we can get some Peter/Cap in the sequel, who knows. Once again, stepping stone. Which always comes up but I just can't see this film as anything else but that, a stepping stone. No matter what Feige says, this is another origin story, but just without Uncle Ben's death and the bite.

Is it seen as heresy around here to think that it would of been a good idea to have the official MCU Spider-Man to be a 22 year old who has been doing this for years behind the scenes, like that new Spidey game? I do wonder how much they can juice the next two films of him in high school.

 

[Cosroo]

It does 100% make sense that -this- version of Peter Parker wants to be an Avenger, also have to try to remember that this kid from the very start has seen all of the other heroes at this point, so going from that Civil War fight and back to normal life, he must really want in on that Avengers action, whether this is right or wrong, or we like it or not, it is just the way that this Peter has been set up. Dragged into the Civil War by Tony causing the major fanboy to show.

 

[The Shape]

The fact that Peter wanting to be an Avenger qualifies as a character arc doesn't automatically make it a good one, or one that necessitates being explored over the entirety of a non-Avengers solo Spidey film.

Of corse it's natural for Peter to want to be an Avenger (or "continue" being an Avenger since he technically already fought alongside a version of the group), but is that something worth having so much focus and weight in his first MCU solo outing? Other than for the obvious business reasons.

I also agree that whole "it's not the suit that makes the man" lesson is something that is also silly/unnecessary for Spider-man to have, as well as being especially redundant coming from Tony Stark, who himself spent an entire film learning the same lesson.

 

[PeterBenParker]

That's not from the actual movie is it?

Right from the Disney XD special.

 

[PeterBenParker]

That made me think though, if the roles were reversed, and Spidey was always trying to impress Captain America, would you guys still have a problem with that?

Yes, if it was just as in-your-face as it has been with the Stark relationship.

I have no issue with Peter looking up to anyone but it's how they've been doing/presenting it that has really bothered me.

 

[AlluAllu]

I'm understanding Peter's motivation to be an Avenger in very different way than you are. I think that Peter is a person who wants to do good in the world and he thinks that the Avengers do the most good in the world. That's why he thinks they are cool. Now they have noticed Peter and given him an upgrade and the opportunity. Peter wants to graduate from what he thinks is less important stuff to the more important stuff. I think that the narrative arc is that Peter will understand that he can do plenty of good, important things on his own.

 

[harryoscop]

The fact that Peter wanting to be an Avenger qualifies as a character arc doesn't automatically make it a good one, or one that necessitates being explored over the entirety of a non-Avengers solo Spidey film.

Of corse it's natural for Peter to want to be an Avenger (or "continue" being an Avenger since he technically already fought alongside a version of the group), but is that something worth having so much focus and weight in his first MCU solo outing? Other than for the obvious business reasons.

I also agree that whole "it's not the suit that makes the man" lesson is something that is also silly/unnecessary for Spider-man to have, as well as being especially redundant coming from Tony Stark, who himself spent an entire film learning the same lesson.

Exactly. It should have been a sub-plot not his main motivation throughout the entire movie. This movie should have been about an established Spider-Man with a good grasp of his powers (since he's had them for nine months) finding his place in this huge universe. Does he want to be like the Avengers? Or does he want to go his own path? Does he gravitate towards Stark or Rogers? What kind of hero does he want to be? That's what it initially seemed like we were getting per Feige's 2015 comments.

Instead we got Spider-kid: Homecoming: Uncle Tony pls let me be an Avengerr! And a pseudo origin story literally nobody wanted or asked for.

 

[Spider-man95]

Sure if by the end of the film, that is his outlook I will be fine with it. I just don't think that will happen due to Infinity War happening next year and presumably Spiderman will be in there fighting with the Avengers.

Just because he's in Infinity War doesn't mean he's on good terms with the Avengers. Spidey's there for the same reason all the other non Avengers heroes are there, to save the world.

 

[harryoscop]

Lmao compare Harley (from IM3) who is like 12 to Holland Peter who is 15 & you easily see how Peter is acting like a caricature. Peter is over-the-top obsessed with Stark compared to Harley (& He doesn't constantly say "awesome", "cool" and "whoa" either) And he's actually on a first name basis with Tony as opposed to always calling him "Mr. Stark" like Holland does.

 

[IAmAsgardian]

"This guy single-handedly ruined the word 'awesome'"

 

[Web-Head]

Spoiler

"I got to stop him."
"But we have a Spanish quiz!"
"Ned, do you really think The Avengers care about a Spanish quiz?"

The cringe!