The Tim Burton/Kevin Smith Feud

[Super_Ludacris]

Still havent seen it, just previews, trailers and features on TV. Might check it out on DVD

 

[WalterKovacs]

No. Just not a fan of Burton.. He's overrated, I prefer my movies have plots and depth, not just something easy on the eyes.

QF f***ing T

 

[WalterKovacs]

I liked a lot of things in Batman, I liked the look, I liked Jack Nicholson (even though he didn't act much at all), I loved the score. But lots of movies have a great score and a great look, like all the other batman movies.
Pardon me if I rant, And pardon my use of a few quotes.

There's no internal conflict whatsoever. We don't get to know the title character at all until like 1/3 into the movie. The prince songs were ear piercing, and even if you liked them by some weird turn of logic, they had nothing to do with the plot. Kim Basinger can't act and wasnt an engaging love interest and was in the movie solely because she was doing Jon Peters, Bruce Wayne and Vicki have no chemistry, nothing is interesting or engaging about Bruce wayne/Vicki nor is there anything about him that makes us care about them/like them. The Joker shoots down the batplane with one shot from a super-long gun after Batman zeroes in on him with a crosshairs and fires repeatedly at him with high-powered machine guns.

And isn't it a little convenient that Joker killed batman's parents? I mean, it makes it a little more grand but not in the long run. ANybody who knows batman knows that he's batman not out of revenge or the hope of one day killing his parents' killer, but to assure that nobody ever finds themself in the same situation he did when he was 8. If it's all about vengence then he's not really a hero. And if it's all for vengence, would he really continute being batman having killed the joker?

Take the part where Bruce, protected by a small tray under his clothes, gets tries to intimidate the joker when he merges into Vicki’s apartment. Forget the absurdity of relying on a book-sized tray as a bulletproof vest — what’s the point of Bruce’s actions? What’s he trying to accomplish?
What’s the point of the Joker’s “Who do you trust?” PR campaign against Batman, as if the two of them were running for mayor?
Then there’s the bit in the newsroom with Vicki and reporter Knox (Elliot/Alexander) musing about who Bruce Wayne really is, how there’s “nothing in his file… no photos, no history, nothing.” Hello? Nothing on Bruce Wayne, millionaire playboy? In the opening sequence, we see a couple with a young boy wandering lost in Gotham’s mean streets, stumbling at last into a dangerous alley where a couple of thugs rob them at gunpoint. The resonances between this incident and the seminal event in young Bruce Wayne’s life, emphasized later in the film by a flashback to the murder of Dr. and Mrs. Wayne, are too striking to be ignored. Yet when Batman shows up, what does he do? Kicks one of the thugs through a door and menaces the other one a bit, telling him to warn his criminal friends about their new enemy. Does he recover the stolen property and return it to its owners? Does he see to their safety in any way? Is this helpless family any better off than the Waynes were when there was no Batman looking over Gotham? If the movie doesn’t care, why should we?

But hey, that's just me.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Also, does anybody else think that Keaton and Hingle were bad choices for their respective roles? I mean, Keaton is a great actor and looks great in the batsuit but I dont think he looks jack like Bruce Wayne, and the idea that Wayne would be socially awkward is kind of weird.
And aside from the fact that Hingle doesnt look like Gordon at all, he doesnt act nor is he written like Gordon.

"..AND i LOVE..mOVIE MAGIC"

 

[Gianakin_]

I disagree with some of your opinions, but agree with others.
As for the Keaton/Hingle thing:
I love Keaton as Batman and I'm fine with his Wayne. But I didn't like Hingle. Not his acting, his character's dialogues, his role, nothing. A big miss, to me.

 

[Noir]

I liked a lot of things in Batman, I liked the look, I liked Jack Nicholson (even though he didn't act much at all), I loved the score. But lots of movies have a great score and a great look, like all the other batman movies.
Pardon me if I rant, And pardon my use of a few quotes.

There's no internal conflict whatsoever. We don't get to know the title character at all until like 1/3 into the movie. The prince songs were ear piercing, and even if you liked them by some weird turn of logic, they had nothing to do with the plot. Kim Basinger can't act and wasnt an engaging love interest and was in the movie solely because she was doing Jon Peters, Bruce Wayne and Vicki have no chemistry, nothing is interesting or engaging about Bruce wayne/Vicki nor is there anything about him that makes us care about them/like them. The Joker shoots down the batplane with one shot from a super-long gun after Batman zeroes in on him with a crosshairs and fires repeatedly at him with high-powered machine guns.

And isn't it a little convenient that Joker killed batman's parents? I mean, it makes it a little more grand but not in the long run. ANybody who knows batman knows that he's batman not out of revenge or the hope of one day killing his parents' killer, but to assure that nobody ever finds themself in the same situation he did when he was 8. If it's all about vengence then he's not really a hero. And if it's all for vengence, would he really continute being batman having killed the joker?

Take the part where Bruce, protected by a small tray under his clothes, gets tries to intimidate the joker when he merges into Vicki’s apartment. Forget the absurdity of relying on a book-sized tray as a bulletproof vest — what’s the point of Bruce’s actions? What’s he trying to accomplish?
What’s the point of the Joker’s “Who do you trust?” PR campaign against Batman, as if the two of them were running for mayor?
Then there’s the bit in the newsroom with Vicki and reporter Knox (Elliot/Alexander) musing about who Bruce Wayne really is, how there’s “nothing in his file… no photos, no history, nothing.” Hello? Nothing on Bruce Wayne, millionaire playboy? In the opening sequence, we see a couple with a young boy wandering lost in Gotham’s mean streets, stumbling at last into a dangerous alley where a couple of thugs rob them at gunpoint. The resonances between this incident and the seminal event in young Bruce Wayne’s life, emphasized later in the film by a flashback to the murder of Dr. and Mrs. Wayne, are too striking to be ignored. Yet when Batman shows up, what does he do? Kicks one of the thugs through a door and menaces the other one a bit, telling him to warn his criminal friends about their new enemy. Does he recover the stolen property and return it to its owners? Does he see to their safety in any way? Is this helpless family any better off than the Waynes were when there was no Batman looking over Gotham? If the movie doesn’t care, why should we?

But hey, that's just me.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I disagree with all of your opinions Walter, and Noir is on crack for applauding you.

 

[WalterKovacs]

I disagree with all of your opinions Walter, and Noir is on crack for applauding you.

Like what, specifically?

 

[MaskedManJRK]

There's no internal conflict whatsoever. We don't get to know the title character at all until like 1/3 into the movie.

There's definately internal conflict--the only difference is, unlike Begins, it doesn't try to spell it out for you.

It's essentially about a not-so-sane man who, after all these years of fighting criminals to fill the hole in his life after his parents' death, happens to finally find the source of his pain.

Also, why is it a bad thing that we don't know everything about a character until a third into the movie?

The prince songs were ear piercing, and even if you liked them by some weird turn of logic, they had nothing to do with the plot.

The only one that I heard that wasn't just background music that didn't entirely fit was Partyman, and even that is sort-of Joker's opinion of himself, so it works. The ones that directly don't involve the soundtrack is only on the literal soundtrack released alongside the movie (Electric Chair, Arms of Orion).

Kim Basinger can't act and wasnt an engaging love interest and was in the movie solely because she was doing Jon Peters, Bruce Wayne and Vicki have no chemistry, nothing is interesting or engaging about Bruce wayne/Vicki nor is there anything about him that makes us care about them/like them.

That I can agree too. The two did their best and acted their asses off, but it's nothing compared to Catwoman in Returns.

The Joker shoots down the batplane with one shot from a super-long gun after Batman zeroes in on him with a crosshairs and fires repeatedly at him with high-powered machine guns.

Joker's done that in the comics pratically from his first appearence--he's always surviving, mostly from blind luck, from things that should have definately killed him.

Take the part where Bruce, protected by a small tray under his clothes, gets tries to intimidate the joker when he merges into Vicki’s apartment. Forget the absurdity of relying on a book-sized tray as a bulletproof vest — what’s the point of Bruce’s actions? What’s he trying to accomplish?

My guess is to distract Joker away from Vikki.

Also, does anybody else think that Keaton and Hingle were bad choices for their respective roles? I mean, Keaton is a great actor and looks great in the batsuit but I dont think he looks jack like Bruce Wayne, and the idea that Wayne would be socially awkward is kind of weird.
And aside from the fact that Hingle doesnt look like Gordon at all, he doesnt act nor is he written like Gordon.

Gordon, while underutilized, was written exactly like he was in the first comics--the only difference being that there isn't a direct friendship between Gordon and Bruce.

As for the social-awkwardness, I think it works in two parts. One, it was put in because...well, the guy's essentially an emotionally-stunted man who spends most of his days planning his next venture into the night dressed as a giant bat. You have to have a very extreme personality and be kinda anti-social to think that's your best option. Also, it could work as a shield against people figuring out he's Batman. Sure, it's no vapid playboy, but "scatter-brained wierdo" works just as well.

 

[WalterKovacs]

There's definately internal conflict--the only difference is, unlike Begins, it doesn't try to spell it out for you.

It's essentially about a not-so-sane man who, after all these years of fighting criminals to fill the hole in his life after his parents' death, happens to finally find the source of his pain.

Also, why is it a bad thing that we don't know everything about a character until a third into the movie?
He found what's been causing his pain and decides to go kill it. Not an internal conflict. He only realizes its whats been causing his pain until late into the movie. And by a third i meant 2 thirds, my bad. Plus, is the joker the only real source of batman's pain? is he happy now?

The only one that I heard that wasn't just background music that didn't entirely fit was Partyman, and even that is sort-of Joker's opinion of himself, so it works. The ones that directly don't involve the soundtrack is only on the literal soundtrack released alongside the movie (Electric Chair, Arms of Orion).
Well, its obligotory and doesn't move the plot, in addition to nobody taking Joker seriously. I get that he's a clown and whatnot but he's a threat. Dont have him dance around like an idiot.

That I can agree too. The two did their best and acted their asses off, but it's nothing compared to Catwoman in Returns.
What did Bassinger do that was good? She didnt react well to anything, even when she realizes that bruce is batman...

Joker's done that in the comics pratically from his first appearence--he's always surviving, mostly from blind luck, from things that should have definately killed him.
But He gets the batplane down with one shot? And if that didnt work, why didn't he survive the fall at the very end?

My guess is to distract Joker away from Vikki.
Yeah..that worked well. And right in front of her no less.

Gordon, while underutilized, was written exactly like he was in the first comics--the only difference being that there isn't a direct friendship between Gordon and Bruce.
Yeah but Burton also supposedly drew alot from the Frank Miller books, which were some of the first to show Gordon as a heroic character. There was a lot of potential. Could they at least have gotten somebody who could act or at the very least looked like Gordon? I mean its like they ran out of time to cast the movie so Tim Burton cast his fat uncle and slapped some expensive clothes on him.

As for the social-awkwardness, I think it works in two parts. One, it was put in because...well, the guy's essentially an emotionally-stunted man who spends most of his days planning his next venture into the night dressed as a giant bat. You have to have a very extreme personality and be kinda anti-social to think that's your best option. Also, it could work as a shield against people figuring out he's Batman. Sure, it's no vapid playboy, but "scatter-brained wierdo" works just as well.
Well then why is he so popular? I mean, in one of the first (if not THE first) frame of a batman comic, Bruce is described as a socialite. It's a way better foil to being batman if you ask me. I mean, of course a socially awkward guy who looks like a dorky serial killer and cant talk to people at a party would be the one to beat criminals up at night. He shouldn't wear it on his cuff. That's the thing, bruce wayne is more or less the mask. Being batman liberates Bruce. Thats pretty much who he is, he has to pretend to be a sleazy socialite who doesnt beleive in batman to cover up.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Well then why is he so popular? I mean, in one of the first (if not THE first) frame of a batman comic, Bruce is described as a socialite. It's a way better foil to being batman if you ask me. I mean, of course a socially awkward guy who looks like a dorky serial killer and cant talk to people at a party would be the one to beat criminals up at night. He shouldn't wear it on his cuff. That's the thing, bruce wayne is more or less the mask. Being batman liberates Bruce. Thats pretty much who he is, he has to pretend to be a sleazy socialite who doesnt beleive in batman to cover up.

The arrogant ass persona from most the comics, and from Batman Begins, is a means to achieve an end. Batman'89 took a different route that reached the same destination.

For Michael Keaton to act like a snob to throw others off the scent would've been, to me, needless.

Whether by a playboy facade (Bale), or an innate unintimidating build (Keaton), it achieves the end of Gothamites never suspecting Bruce Wayne to be the elusive vigilante. For some fans, that doesn't work. It works for me. Why?

"Giant menacing, supernatural form."

"I'm telling you man, a giant bat!"

"Is there a six foot bat in Gotham City?"

The ears on the Batsuit, the heels of his boots, the shadows he cast by lamplight, all served in projecting a creature that was perceived by criminals to be much taller than in actuality.

What B89 did was CLEVER. It dared to take liberties in that department, and it payed off.

I believe fans who isolate B89 for derision are comparable to vultures. They feed off the easy targets, the vulnerable, or the already dead. Critic bravery is along the lines of pointing out flaws in Batman Begins.

 

[Noir]

Wasn't it said somewhere he drew inspiration from Killing Joke and TDKR?
..It showed so well

Now, lets get to a Burton quote:

I was never a giant comic book fan, but I've always loved the image of Batman and The Joker. The reason I've never been a comic book fan - and I think it started when I was a child - is because I could never tell which box I was supposed to read. I don't know if it was dyslexia or whatever, but that's why I loved The Killing Joke, because for the first time I could tell which one to read. It's my favorite. It's the first comic I've ever loved. And the success of those graphic novels made our ideas more acceptable."

So a filmmaker of great quality can't even read a comic? He doesn't know which panel to go to? That explains his ****ing storyboards
Seriously, you've got to be ******ed to not understand which panel your supposed to read in a comic..

 

[Noir]

The arrogant ass persona from most the comics, and from Batman Begins, is a means to achieve an end. Batman'89 took a different route that reached the same destination.

For Michael Keaton to act like a snob to throw others off the scent would've been, to me, needless.

Whether by a playboy facade (Bale), or an innate unintimidating psychique (Keaton), it achieves the end of Gothamites never suspecting Bruce Wayne to be the elusive vigilante. For some fans, that doesn't work. It works for me. Why?

"Giant menacing, supernatural form."

"I'm telling you man, a giant bat!"

"Is there a six foot bat in Gotham City?"

The ears on the Batsuit, the heels of his boots, the shadows he cast by lamplight, all served in projecting a creature that was perceived by criminals to be much taller than in actuality.

What B89 did was CLEVER. It dared to take liberties in that department, and it payed off.

I believe fans who isolate B89 for derision are comparable to vultures. They feed off the easy targets, the vulnerable, or the already dead. Critic bravery is along the lines of pointing out flaws in Batman Begins.

Well if that argument works then people who pick apart Batman and Robin are vultures and Batman Forever dared to go where the series never went and did so by taking some liberties with the source material.. (Which is funny, Batman Forever is actually more accurate to the comics, go figure)

Tim Burton is Uwe Boll with a flair for German Expressionism.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

You're insulting Tim Burton on a personal level? That's an unwise decision. The man you just titled a ****** has made a life for himself. An artist is motivated to leave their progressive mark on the world before they hit the grave. If Burton was to die today, without future projects, rest assured he's already made his mark. It's there... and it's a style worth admiring.

 

[Cain]

The arrogant ass persona from most the comics, and from Batman Begins, is a means to achieve an end.

Umm that arrogant ass persona is exclusive to Batman Begins. In 20 years of reading Batman comics I never saw it in any comic written before that movie. Matter of fact that was pretty much 1980's Tony Stark right there. Granted I digged it a lot and it's one of my favorite aspects of that movie but honestly Keaton's Wayne has more in common with the comic counterpart than Bale does in the respect that he's hell of a lot more "bimbo" than "a-hole".

 

[Cain]

You're insulting Tim Burton on a personal level? That's an unwise decision. The man you just titled a ****** has made a life for himself. An artist is motivated to leave their progressive mark on the world before they hit the grave. If Burton was to die today, without having done any more future projects, rest assured he's already made his mark. It's there... and it's a style worth admiring.

Well I'm sure Burton won't lose any sleep. I doubt a man who has the respect of his peers and tons of other powerful people in Hollywood and has also gained some great influence in his industry would get shaken by the thought that some obscure internet poster likened him to Uwe Boll.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Umm that arrogant ass persona is exclusive to Batman Begins. In 20 years of reading Batman comics I never saw it in any comic written before that movie. Matter of fact that was pretty much 1980's Tony Stark right there. Granted I digged it a lot and it's one of my favorite aspects of that movie but honestly Keaton's Wayne has more in common with the comic counterpart than Bale does in the respect that he's hell of a lot more "bimbo" than "a-hole".

Begins took it to extremes, but the concept is that Bruce Wayne is spoiled, and has an overt hightened sense of entitlement.

 

[Noir]

I wouldn't say Keaton's Bruce is more predominate in comics, maybe Miller's take..

 

[Cain]

^ I said in the respect that Keaton played him as a dunce it's more comparable to the comic version than Bale's. Read man, read.

Begins took it to extremes, but the concept is that Bruce Wayne is spoiled, and has an overt hightened sense of entitlement.

It's always been that he's an aloof playboy. Basically an absent minded guy who has inherited his parents' fortune. He's clumsy and very naive but never spoiled. That's why he has friends and is so admired by the public people love him cause even though he's a billionaire he's still a "nice guy". It was always supposed to throw people off as well but in the respect that a guy who is that childish & gullible in public couldn't possibly be a mature and intelligent detective. I did like what Nolan did though but spoiled has been Tony Stark's gimmick and playing dumb is Bruce Wayne's.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Cain, you seem to be describing Bruce from certain episodes of B:TAS. I can see what you're saying there. My book stash is elsewhere, but in a lot of the issues Bruce acts not necessarily "naive"... maybe remotely unsuspecting... like a typical wealthy bachellor. He's definitely acted arrogant before.

 

[Cain]

But he's never been an *******, ever. There is a difference between being arrogant and being rude and obnoxious. BB Bruce was an unapologetic jerk. With all due respect Deathstroke and I don't mean to gloat my Batman collection ranges a little over 200 issues and this is not counting TPB's since 1988. I have an idea I know what I'm talking about here.

Trust that it's not something I just saw in TAS though TAS was heavily influenced by the comics and that is one aspect that clearly made it in. Now the O'Neill/Adams comics or my favorite the ones by Englehart and Rogers fit the mold I described. But I will go ahead and cite a couple of modern (post-2000) examples especially since that was an era very influential to Goyer and are more easily available in comic store back issue bins nowadays so you could track them down if you'd llike.

Gotham Knights #1
Gotham Knights #6
Detective # 752
Detective #758

Oh and let me not forget Detective #755 which I hold in my hand as I type this and features this funny lil exchange

SASHA BORDEAUX: Don't act dub, Mr. Wayne.

BRUCE WAYNE: Who said it was an act?

Now I understand that BB took a neo-realistic approach with the material. In so it fell more in line with what a "real" Bruce Wayne would probably act like, a rich snob. The reason Stark has always been written that way is cause Marvel heroes are supposed to be "flawed and human" with DC though their heroes are archetypes. So that's why he's always been portrayed as a buffoon cause is kind of the corner that he was painted into from the 70's and on.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Where did you catch that Iron Man comics took precedence over Batman comics as inspiration for Nolan and Goyer?

 

[Cain]

I said Nolan and Goyer's approach was injecting neo-realism into the Batman films. if you don't know what that is then look it up. I stated that Bruce Wayne as shown in BB is more comparable to Tony Stark in the 1980's Iron Man comics. I never did once say that they drew inspiration from there directly so please do not try to inject things into my post that simply are no there. Though with Goyer growing up a Marvel fan I wouldn't be surprised if he was indeed influenced by certain Marvels when writing that script but that's neithe here nor there since it's speculative of me and not officially confimed. I did imply that since Marvel is more about "human" characters there are obvious parrallels between their neo-realistic approach and the way Marvel characters are handled. But that's as far as that went.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

So are you saying Nolan and Goyer were more concerned with being neorealistic than using Batman comics as a reference for how Bruce Wayne would be written?

 

[WalterKovacs]

Umm that arrogant ass persona is exclusive to Batman Begins. In 20 years of reading Batman comics I never saw it in any comic written before that movie. Matter of fact that was pretty much 1980's Tony Stark right there. Granted I digged it a lot and it's one of my favorite aspects of that movie but honestly Keaton's Wayne has more in common with the comic counterpart than Bale does in the respect that he's hell of a lot more "bimbo" than "a-hole".

Im glad to know that you digged through it alot.