The Dark Knight The Two Face Psyche

[da3dl3us]

I posted this before in the two face thread, but it was kinda looked over, so I'm sorry for posting again.

I've watched the movie 4 times now, and love it more every time. But the one thing that stuck out the fourth time is Dent becoming the Two Face psyche.

Now, with Harvey losing his fiance and half his face blown to hell, I completely understand his need for revenge.

But other than the fact he flips a two sided coin for fun, why did he post scar feel compelled to abide by the fate of the coin flip in the context of this movie?

In the comics and TAS, it's clearly shown Harvey has a sad, abusive past (the fixed coin flipping game his father played on him as a means to beat him), and has dissociative identity disorder or possible schizophrenia. In the movie, there wasn't much of hint of that. Thus the scar traumatized him and unleashed his repressed psychological pathologies, creating the coin flip as his compulsion to make evil/good decisions.

I only wished in the movie, they showed Harvey maybe taking some unknown prescription pills, or talking about his father being abusive and the coin the only thing his father left him (a la Batman Annual #14)

 

[Audioslave]

The coin was used to "make his own luck" by the fact that it was a double headed coin.

When he had a gun to the head of one of Joker's looneys in the alleyway, he kept flipping it saying tails was going to result in the man needing a new head.

The irony of this Harvey Dent, was he was fully in control of what he wanted to do, he always knew the answer was going to be heads.

Now, in the revenge of Rachel's death, the irony is that the two-headed coin that he "made his own fate" with before is no longer definitively two-headed, the scarred side results in his victims feeling his revenge.

The coin flip is symbolic of his nature of always being in control of his fate, to becoming unhinged, and letting fate be up to the only thing Harvey Two-Face thinks is fair, which is chance.

 

[GregComicFan]

I agree.... I also think it would of been nice if there was a 3 hour cut of The Dark Knight and in it there were scenes of Harvey's past...and "quiet moments" with him where you see that behind closed doors he cracks up a little.....I still think Batman the Animated Series did an excellent job by showing Harvey going to secret psychiatry meetings to deal with his bottled up aggression....

however I do think Nolan and Company were going for a different kind of Two-Face... not the "split-personality" disorder that was done when they remodeled his character on B:TAS over 10 years ago....

They went for a vigilante Two-Face. Basically, Harvey was Bruce Wayne... but a true vigilante. In BB, Bruce has a gun and almost walks up and shoots Joe Chill after his court appearance. Bruce ends up not doing it and decides from that point to not kill. Harvey is just the opposite. He's a true vigilante in the sense of Charles Bronson in Death Wish.... his finance is killed and he goes off and kills all those responsible. He's like the Punisher, in fact. He's not really INSANE, he's just totally out for revenge and blinded by it.... and he justifies it by saying it's all "fate and 50/50 and chance and unbiased and unprejudice"....and so he flips his coin and says you're luck is up and BAM! you're dead. Harvey just became blind to vengeance.

I dont think Nolan's Harvey Two-Face was insane. He just flipped the coin and decided to use that as his way to justify his actions to himself. But all-in-all he was just a vigilante who was a guy out for revenge.

Not a psycho like B:TAS.... If Two-Face had survived I dont even think he would of belonged in Arkham Asylum.

 

[Jokers_Wild]

I'm really glad that Nolan and Co. gave us something different from the BTAS version. I like it, but I'm glad TDK was different. I'm also glad that Nolan mixed up the way Harvey becomes Two-Face, and didn't just completely swipe it from TLH.

 

[Malone]

The coin was used to "make his own luck" by the fact that it was a double headed coin.

When he had a gun to the head of one of Joker's looneys in the alleyway, he kept flipping it saying tails was going to result in the man needing a new head.

The irony of this Harvey Dent, was he was fully in control of what he wanted to do, he always knew the answer was going to be heads.

Now, in the revenge of Rachel's death, the irony is that the two-headed coin that he "made his own fate" with before is no longer definitively two-headed, the scarred side results in his victims feeling his revenge.

The coin flip is symbolic of his nature of always being in control of his fate, to becoming unhinged, and letting fate be up to the only thing Harvey Two-Face thinks is fair, which is chance.

Nice explanation.

 

[Saint]

There are a few reasons he needed the coin, a few reasons he became Two-Face.

1. He could not handle the responsibility of his decisions.
2. He no longer believed his choices could control is fate, because the world is simply random.
3. He had come to believe in fair chance as the only justice in an otherwise random world.

So, firstly, Harvey could not deal with the idea that his actions, his choices, could have consequences he had not anticipated. He tried to do the right thing, and it cost him. This has always been Harvey's problem: he simply can't handle the reality that his decision, right or wrong, may have unpleasant consequences. Accordingly, he delegates the responsibility to the coin. If the coin chooses, Harvey can't be held responsible for what comes.

Now the second reason? Harvey had made a point of being in control his entire life--that's what the double-sided coin was for: he never left anything to chance. He would make his decision, he would act, and he would make the world be the way he wanted it to be. But, rather abruptly, he was shown that the world is beyond his control. He lost faith in his ability to make the world work the way he wants it to be, he lost faith in the righteousness he had served his entire life, as serving it had cost him everything. This was an attack on his ideals, and they crumbled. He had made all the right choices, but he still lost in the end, and that made him believe that nothing he could ever do would change the fact that everything is determined by simple chance. The man who believed that the world is what you make it was forced to believe that the world is random, and no choice we make matters in the end.

Joker cultivated these ideas. He gave Harvey the push that solidified them and prodded him into becoming Two-Face. Harvey was at the same time 1) terrified of the consequences his choices might cause, and 2) convinced that his choices could not actually control fate. Harvey had always believed in justice, but justice is about balance and fairness, and what's fair in a random world? Joker gave him the answer.

In the end, he came out believing that if everything is chance, the only way for the world to be fair, to be just, is to subject everyone to the same fair chance. The coin-toss. This is why Harvey went after Gordon's family. In his mind, that was justice: giving Gordon the same random chance for loss that Harvey was subjected to. Gordon had been just like Dent; they had both made decisions trying to save the city, but only Dent had paid the price. The just thing, in Dent's mind, was giving Gordon the chance to pay the price, as well.

 

[mavsmaniac21]

the way they showed him flipping the coin and he kept saying "not exactly" when using it to leave things to fate was one of my favorite parts of the movie. then finally rachel turns it in the precinct and you see what he meant. they did that so well. dont forget he was in tremendous pain and refusing any meds. this definately contributed to his psyche the little time he was two face

 

[da3dl3us]

There are a few reasons he needed the coin, a few reasons he became Two-Face.

1. He could not handle the responsibility of his decisions.
2. He no longer believed his choices could control is fate, because the world is simply random.
3. He had come to believe in fair chance as the only justice in an otherwise random world.

So, firstly, Harvey could not deal with the idea that his actions, his choices, could have consequences he had not anticipated. He tried to do the right thing, and it cost him. This has always been Harvey's problem: he simply can't handle the reality that his decision, right or wrong, may have unpleasant consequences. Accordingly, he delegates the responsibility to the coin. If the coin chooses, Harvey can't be held responsible for what comes.

Now the second reason? Harvey had made a point of being in control his entire life--that's what the double-sided coin was for: he never left anything to chance. He would make his decision, he would act, and he would make the world be the way he wanted it to be. But, rather abruptly, he was shown that the world is beyond his control. He lost faith in his ability to make the world work the way he wants it to be, he lost faith in the righteousness he had served his entire life, as serving it had cost him everything. This was an attack on his ideals, and they crumbled. He had made all the right choices, but he still lost in the end, and that made him believe that nothing he could ever do would change the fact that everything is determined by simple chance. The man who believed that the world is what you make it was forced to believe that the world is random, and no choice we make matters in the end.

Joker cultivated these ideas. He gave Harvey the push that solidified them and prodded him into becoming Two-Face. Harvey was at the same time 1) terrified of the consequences his choices might cause, and 2) convinced that his choices could not actually control fate. Harvey had always believed in justice, but justice is about balance and fairness, and what's fair in a random world? Joker gave him the answer.

In the end, he came out believing that if everything is chance, the only way for the world to be fair, to be just, is to subject everyone to the same fair chance. The coin-toss. This is why Harvey went after Gordon's family. In his mind, that was justice: giving Gordon the same random chance for loss that Harvey was subjected to. Gordon had been just like Dent; they had both made decisions trying to save the city, but only Dent had paid the price. The just thing, in Dent's mind, was giving Gordon the chance to pay the price, as well.

Fantastic explanation! I think I'm quite satisfied after reading your response. Thanks Saint!t:

 

[passiondesigns]

I'm really glad that Nolan and Co. gave us something different from the BTAS version. I like it, but I'm glad TDK was different. I'm also glad that Nolan mixed up the way Harvey becomes Two-Face, and didn't just completely swipe it from TLH.

totally agreed!

 

[TNC9852002]

There are a few reasons he needed the coin, a few reasons he became Two-Face.

1. He could not handle the responsibility of his decisions.
2. He no longer believed his choices could control is fate, because the world is simply random.
3. He had come to believe in fair chance as the only justice in an otherwise random world.

So, firstly, Harvey could not deal with the idea that his actions, his choices, could have consequences he had not anticipated. He tried to do the right thing, and it cost him. This has always been Harvey's problem: he simply can't handle the reality that his decision, right or wrong, may have unpleasant consequences. Accordingly, he delegates the responsibility to the coin. If the coin chooses, Harvey can't be held responsible for what comes.

Now the second reason? Harvey had made a point of being in control his entire life--that's what the double-sided coin was for: he never left anything to chance. He would make his decision, he would act, and he would make the world be the way he wanted it to be. But, rather abruptly, he was shown that the world is beyond his control. He lost faith in his ability to make the world work the way he wants it to be, he lost faith in the righteousness he had served his entire life, as serving it had cost him everything. This was an attack on his ideals, and they crumbled. He had made all the right choices, but he still lost in the end, and that made him believe that nothing he could ever do would change the fact that everything is determined by simple chance. The man who believed that the world is what you make it was forced to believe that the world is random, and no choice we make matters in the end.

Joker cultivated these ideas. He gave Harvey the push that solidified them and prodded him into becoming Two-Face. Harvey was at the same time 1) terrified of the consequences his choices might cause, and 2) convinced that his choices could not actually control fate. Harvey had always believed in justice, but justice is about balance and fairness, and what's fair in a random world? Joker gave him the answer.

In the end, he came out believing that if everything is chance, the only way for the world to be fair, to be just, is to subject everyone to the same fair chance. The coin-toss. This is why Harvey went after Gordon's family. In his mind, that was justice: giving Gordon the same random chance for loss that Harvey was subjected to. Gordon had been just like Dent; they had both made decisions trying to save the city, but only Dent had paid the price. The just thing, in Dent's mind, was giving Gordon the chance to pay the price, as well.

Yep.

A lot of people have been confused or not buying into Dent's transformation, but that's because it's not spelled out for the typical viewer and they must delve more closely into the character and what Dent stands for and notice the emotional details shown in the movie in order to connect these points. This movie was smart in not just throwing that coin in to foreshadow his transformation. It was actually a very intimate and symbolic statement about everything Dent believed in and the way he lived his life for bringing crime and corruption to an end in the city.

-TNC

 

[ali.bryan]

I thought the movie showed his transformation very well, it just didn't come out of nowhere, you see him talk about his father's lucky coin, which hints at his father being abusive and you see at the charity party that Dent doesn't want to talk to anyone but Rachel and that he's very much a loner.

 

[I Am The Knight]

There are a few reasons he needed the coin, a few reasons he became Two-Face.

1. He could not handle the responsibility of his decisions.
2. He no longer believed his choices could control is fate, because the world is simply random.
3. He had come to believe in fair chance as the only justice in an otherwise random world.

So, firstly, Harvey could not deal with the idea that his actions, his choices, could have consequences he had not anticipated. He tried to do the right thing, and it cost him. This has always been Harvey's problem: he simply can't handle the reality that his decision, right or wrong, may have unpleasant consequences. Accordingly, he delegates the responsibility to the coin. If the coin chooses, Harvey can't be held responsible for what comes.

Now the second reason? Harvey had made a point of being in control his entire life--that's what the double-sided coin was for: he never left anything to chance. He would make his decision, he would act, and he would make the world be the way he wanted it to be. But, rather abruptly, he was shown that the world is beyond his control. He lost faith in his ability to make the world work the way he wants it to be, he lost faith in the righteousness he had served his entire life, as serving it had cost him everything. This was an attack on his ideals, and they crumbled. He had made all the right choices, but he still lost in the end, and that made him believe that nothing he could ever do would change the fact that everything is determined by simple chance. The man who believed that the world is what you make it was forced to believe that the world is random, and no choice we make matters in the end.

Joker cultivated these ideas. He gave Harvey the push that solidified them and prodded him into becoming Two-Face. Harvey was at the same time 1) terrified of the consequences his choices might cause, and 2) convinced that his choices could not actually control fate. Harvey had always believed in justice, but justice is about balance and fairness, and what's fair in a random world? Joker gave him the answer.

In the end, he came out believing that if everything is chance, the only way for the world to be fair, to be just, is to subject everyone to the same fair chance. The coin-toss. This is why Harvey went after Gordon's family. In his mind, that was justice: giving Gordon the same random chance for loss that Harvey was subjected to. Gordon had been just like Dent; they had both made decisions trying to save the city, but only Dent had paid the price. The just thing, in Dent's mind, was giving Gordon the chance to pay the price, as well.

I love this post

 

[The Guard]

If Two-Face wasn't partially insane, than his turn against Batman and Gordon is probably one of the worst-written "developments" ever. No rational mind would take those actions against his former allies for no apparent reason.

 

[ronny]

There's a method to his madness. He resents Gordon for not being tougher on the crooked cops in his unit and he wants to rid Gotham of Batman by creating a safer city. His transformation puts the Dent ideals on steroids, no more waiting and no more working around the system. He tries to make things work at the barrel of a gun. He becomes a deranged vigilante, much as he does in The Long Halloween.
Not the original Two-Face, where he goes into petty crime, but a more believable path. Namely a crusading DA who has lost all faith in the system and is now prepared to bulldoze over it in the persuit of what he feels is right.
Imagine if Batman took the easy way out and killed the criminals he despised, that's what Harvey Dent becomes.
And I'm under the strong impression that he's a little disturbed even at the start of the film. Little expressions, his willingness to violently threaten a mental patient, the complete disregard for his own safety.
Dent is nuts.