The Dark Knight Two-Face foreshadowing in TDK

[kenellard]

Surely Nolan will insist on there being some underlying psychosis there, it's not realistic for someone to suddenly become criminally insane just from getting scarred by acid

 

[Crooklyn]

Yup, I definitely could see the possibility of TAS influencing Harvey's characterization. I'd have no problem with a mostly good-willed district attorney, but there should definitely be hints of underlying anger management problems, or extreme anxiety due to the justice system. Or hell, make it both.

 

[Joker]

I want him to mention he got a two-faced coin from his crazy father, ala The Long Halloween

 

[Cristo]

I like the idea about one side of his face darker than the other (due to shadow, lighting, and other things) even though that was a seemingly jokey allusion to Mark Steven Johnson.

And, I think he should get the coin from his father.

You know guys, I have some ideas, so listen to them.

Eh...let's think about it a different way. I'm going to depart a bit from the ideas that have been thrown around this board and present me own ideas for what could be some good sequels.

First of all, I have to say I'm on the side of the people who say that Joker scarring Harvey Dent would feel too coincidental, too much of a way to connect everything.

Now, I know I'm going to be hanged for this, but what about not scarring Harvey Dent until the middle of the THIRD film? Now calm down...I'm not finished. My reasons for saying this are these: In TDK, we've got Joker killing innocent people and basically being a pain in the neck for Batman. We all know Joker's not going to die, so this story could be about like Christopher Nolan said, "things getting worse before they get better". Think about it: the Joker, Mr Zsaz, and Scarecrow causing havoc (with Joker being the primary and best villain of course). Then, we have the cure for this fear toxin, so they give it to Carmine Falcone in order to try him in court BUT he gets off on some technicality or because of some crooked judges and starts ruling Gotham again through his thugs. This could set up the rivalry between Falcone and the new mob boss Maroni, and it could also introduce Harvey Dent as the district attorney who tries to bring them both down. Meanwhile, Batman's dealing with the maniacal Joker and, done right, that could basically envelop the story of TDK ending with Joker getting shipped off to Arkham(albeit with some cryptic joke, of course) and Batman, Dent, and Gordon on the rooftop(just like the first movie) allying to stop crime in Gotham, leaving some hope for the future.

Now, the third movie focuses on the gangsters. Harvey Dent becomes obsessed with taking down Falcone, while Batman also tries to stop the gangsters from destroying Gotham City. The tagline could even be "I believe in Gotham City." Maroni is finally convicted, but he scars Harvey in court. Harvey goes to the hospital, Batman dealing with Joker escaping from Arkham, Harvey escapes, finds Falcone. Now we could have a stand down with Batman, Joker, Falcone, and Two-Face. Two-Face flips his coin; it lands on the scarred side. He shoots Falcone twice in the head and he escapes. Batman goes to pursue Two-Face, but Joker blocks him and starts lauging manically before saying something like "It's too late, Batman. Gotham belongs to the freaks now. Like him, me...and you." Batman and Joker fight; Batman takes down Joker (something symbolic of Batman conquering his fear) and pursues Two-Face only to find that he's turned himself in saying darkly that "Justice has been done." And, we find Batman standing alone on the building where the first two ended and saying "I believe in justice." "I believe in putting fear...into those who prey on the fearful." Then, we see flashbacks of Batman's father. Batman finally takes his mask off revealing Wayne's face as he looks out over the Gotham City skyline. "I believe in Gotham City." Cue credits.

Now, I think that that would be a good trilogy of Bat-films and I'd like to see what other people think.

 

[Dark Sentinel]

I like the idea about one side of his face darker than the other (due to shadow, lighting, and other things) even though that was a seemingly jokey allusion to Mark Steven Johnson.

And, I think he should get the coin from his father.

You know guys, I have some ideas, so listen to them.

Eh...let's think about it a different way. I'm going to depart a bit from the ideas that have been thrown around this board and present me own ideas for what could be some good sequels.

First of all, I have to say I'm on the side of the people who say that Joker scarring Harvey Dent would feel too coincidental, too much of a way to connect everything.

Now, I know I'm going to be hanged for this, but what about not scarring Harvey Dent until the middle of the THIRD film? Now calm down...I'm not finished. My reasons for saying this are these: In TDK, we've got Joker killing innocent people and basically being a pain in the neck for Batman. We all know Joker's not going to die, so this story could be about like Christopher Nolan said, "things getting worse before they get better". Think about it: the Joker, Mr Zsaz, and Scarecrow causing havoc (with Joker being the primary and best villain of course). Then, we have the cure for this fear toxin, so they give it to Carmine Falcone in order to try him in court BUT he gets off on some technicality or because of some crooked judges and starts ruling Gotham again through his thugs. This could set up the rivalry between Falcone and the new mob boss Maroni, and it could also introduce Harvey Dent as the district attorney who tries to bring them both down. Meanwhile, Batman's dealing with the maniacal Joker and, done right, that could basically envelop the story of TDK ending with Joker getting shipped off to Arkham(albeit with some cryptic joke, of course) and Batman, Dent, and Gordon on the rooftop(just like the first movie) allying to stop crime in Gotham, leaving some hope for the future.

Now, the third movie focuses on the gangsters. Harvey Dent becomes obsessed with taking down Falcone, while Batman also tries to stop the gangsters from destroying Gotham City. The tagline could even be "I believe in Gotham City." Maroni is finally convicted, but he scars Harvey in court. Harvey goes to the hospital, Batman dealing with Joker escaping from Arkham, Harvey escapes, finds Falcone. Now we could have a stand down with Batman, Joker, Falcone, and Two-Face. Two-Face flips his coin; it lands on the scarred side. He shoots Falcone twice in the head and he escapes. Batman goes to pursue Two-Face, but Joker blocks him and starts lauging manically before saying something like "It's too late, Batman. Gotham belongs to the freaks now. Like him, me...and you." Batman and Joker fight; Batman takes down Joker (something symbolic of Batman conquering his fear) and pursues Two-Face only to find that he's turned himself in saying darkly that "Justice has been done." And, we find Batman standing alone on the building where the first two ended and saying "I believe in justice." "I believe in putting fear...into those who prey on the fearful." Then, we see flashbacks of Batman's father. Batman finally takes his mask off revealing Wayne's face as he looks out over the Gotham City skyline. "I believe in Gotham City." Cue credits.

Now, I think that that would be a good trilogy of Bat-films and I'd like to see what other people think.

Goyer already said that Harvey wouldn't get scarred until either the end of TDK or the beginning of BB3.

 

[StorminNorman]

Surely Nolan will insist on there being some underlying psychosis there, it's not realistic for someone to suddenly become criminally insane just from getting scarred by acid

But see, the fall of Harvey Dent is suppose to represent the powers corruption has in Gotham City, that even one of the cities kindest, most noble and good hearted men are turned into wanton psycopaths by the filth of Gotham. To make Harvey Dent anything less than great would take away that element.

 

[StorminNorman]

extreme anxiety due to the justice system. Or hell, make it both.

This I could see, as long as it doesn't make Harvey seen as anything but a great guy. If Harvey is showing signs of being frustrated by the game that is Criminal Law (especially in such a city as Gotham) and they kinda built on that, that would maintain what makes Dent, Dent.

 

[Lando81]

I like the idea of there being absolutely no hints towards Two-Face. Harvey should come across as a shining example of an executor of law.

EXACTLY!!! Ive been saying this for a long time and no one agreed with me!

 

[Crooklyn]

This I could see, as long as it doesn't make Harvey seen as anything but a great guy. If Harvey is showing signs of being frustrated by the game that is Criminal Law (especially in such a city as Gotham) and they kinda built on that, that would maintain what makes Dent, Dent.

Just as long as they don't make Harvey look foolproof, I'd be fine with that. It's just that I don't find a facial scarring enough to make someone do a complete 180. There has to be something in Dent's personality that is struggling to keep in check, and when the acid hits his face, that's the trigger that snaps his mind into pieces.

 

[itsthebatman]

Just as long as they don't make Harvey look foolproof, I'd be fine with that. It's just that I don't find a facial scarring enough to make someone do a complete 180. There has to be something in Dent's personality that is struggling to keep in check, and when the acid hits his face, that's the trigger that snaps his mind into pieces.

I agree with you here. He has to have some hidden demons that are brought out by the scarring- that to me is more powerful (and believable) than the acid turning him instantly from good to bad.

 

[Dark Sentinel]

i personally don't want to see Dent as purely "good" in TDK; there's no character development there. i'm sure Nolan came up with an interesting subplot to address this (i.e. Dent hears of his fathers dying, and all the memories of being abused rush back, something along those lines) and it kind of spills over into Dent's work as DA. not in the form of violent outbursts, but in the sense that Dent has to control his rage.

Since Zsasz is back in this film, there's a chance we could see Dent's first Gotham courtroom appearance as Zsasz's prosecutor. depending on how Zsasz responds to Dent's questions (i.e. like a smart***), Dent could be forced to control his anger. that can be shown physically, i.e. tightening of the neck, clearing his throat, whatever. little hints and clues to Dent's darker side. Maybe one or two little "shadows over the left side of his face" shots but not more, no need to overload it just for the fans' sake. And make it work for the plot, don't put them in there just to put them in there.

 

[itsthebatman]

I don't believe TLH mentioned anything about his father.

http://www.vacuumboy9.com/tlh/tlhish09.html

Page 15--Harvey had to "go see" his dad, because, as the "crazy as ever" comment Harvey makes on the next page tells us, Harvey's dad is in an insane asylum. We found this out in one of the Batman annuals, in which Two-Face found Harvey's dad and tried to kill him for his rotten childhood.
Re: Harvey being a good guy.
Page 6--In panel two, Harvey implies that if Thomas Wayne had refused to help Carmine, Gotham would have been better off. He's implying that Thomas should have committed murder, and the right side of his face, the just side, is in shadow.
Now Batman NEVER advocates murder. So this is clearly an example of Dent going further than Batman.

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

The only foreshadowing I'd like to see is that pop pills to keep his psychy up and sees the psychiatrist now and again for his split personality disorder like we saw in "BTAS."

Also, I wouldn't mind using shadows to cover one side of his face.

 

[StorminNorman]

Just as long as they don't make Harvey look foolproof, I'd be fine with that. It's just that I don't find a facial scarring enough to make someone do a complete 180. There has to be something in Dent's personality that is struggling to keep in check, and when the acid hits his face, that's the trigger that snaps his mind into pieces.

I think the scarring alone is not was causes Harvey's break. It is the fact that Harvey spent his entire career on this one case - busting the Roman - and when he finally has it nailed, when he finally has the right people testifying, when he has all the right evidence, his lead witness turns on him, destroying his face and his case at the sametime.

After that, his faith in the Justice System was gone, and his mind was broken.

 

[StorminNorman]

I don't believe TLH mentioned anything about his father.

http://www.vacuumboy9.com/tlh/tlhish09.html

Page 15--Harvey had to "go see" his dad, because, as the "crazy as ever" comment Harvey makes on the next page tells us, Harvey's dad is in an insane asylum. We found this out in one of the Batman annuals, in which Two-Face found Harvey's dad and tried to kill him for his rotten childhood.
Re: Harvey being a good guy.
Page 6--In panel two, Harvey implies that if Thomas Wayne had refused to help Carmine, Gotham would have been better off. He's implying that Thomas should have committed murder, and the right side of his face, the just side, is in shadow.
Now Batman NEVER advocates murder. So this is clearly an example of Dent going further than Batman.

Okay, I remember that now. It has been a few good months since I last read TLH.

I still don't find Harvey saying "If Thmas Wayne didn't help Carmine, Gotham Would Be Better" to be a sign that Harvey is a bad person, just a realist. Making Hypothetical comments about a doctor refusing to save the life of a murderer is a far stretch from showing Harvey has murderous tendencies.

 

[StorminNorman]

The only foreshadowing I'd like to see is that pop pills to keep his psychy up and sees the psychiatrist now and again for his split personality disorder like we saw in "BTAS."

Also, I wouldn't mind using shadows to cover one side of his face.

The shadows are good, though BTAS Harvey Dent doesn't fly with me.

If Nolan is really digging TLH (which it is apparent he is) I hope that means Harvey Dent will be more of a Loebian product than Dini.

 

[itsthebatman]

Afternoon. I agree it doesn't definitely prove that Harvey has murderous tendencies, but don't you think it shows a certain callousness and disregard for life for that Batman doesn't show? After all, in TMWL, Bats thinks about how easy it would be to just drop Joker in the poisoned reservoir, but thinks 'Damn it, I can't'. He even goes out of his way to prove Joker's innocnece in Devil's Advocate. I'm not arguing that Harvey is inherently bad, or evil, but I do think he is a tragic figure that has s low and gradual descent into evil. The acid scarring should be the tipping point, the straw that breaks the camel's back, not an incident that changes a whiter-than-white character into a criminal psychopath.