The Villains Problem

[StormC]

I think other MCU villains have moments where they generate a threatening presence, but Winter Soldier is the only one to create a constant sense of dread and tension, IMO.

My favorite baddies from the series are probably Loki, Ego, and Zemo. I like Stane and Red Skull a lot too. Winter Soldier is a great boogeyman but less interesting as a character, which is balanced out by Pierce having great dialogue/acting but no physical presence. Even Ultron I like more than I dislike, qualms aside.

 

[Awest66]

When it all comes down to it, Having a weak villain isn't exactly a deal-breaker in these types of movies.

If everything else (story, main characters) are firing on all cylinders, Having an unmemorable villain is an acceptable flaw (Logan is an excellent example of this)

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Oh please. Right when we saw Doomsday everyone with a fully functioning brain (re: not Superman or Batman apparently) knew that he'd be killed with the spear. There's nothing intimidating about that, particularly when he looks like every other generic monster we've seen in the past decade, just with considerably worse CG.

We know every villain is going to be defeated in some way. They should at least make it a challenge thought which Doomsday did and Ultron didn't.

Talking intimidation only he was much better in that respect than Ultron who wasn't intimidating in the slightest. His look and CG weren't very good but that wasn't what we were talking about.

 

[Flint Marko]

We know every villain is going to be defeated in some way. They should at least make it a challenge thought which Doomsday did and Ultron didn't.

Talking intimidation only he was much better in that respect than Ultron who wasn't intimidating in the slightest. His look and CG weren't very good but that wasn't what we were talking about.

We know every villain is going to be defeated in some way but in Doomsday's case we knew the exact way he was going to be defeated right when he showed up. And instead of doing exactly what we all knew they should do, the heroes just punched him a lot. So the film makers made Doomsday a "challenge" by making the protagonists dumb. I don't see how that's intimidating, but to each their own.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

We know every villain is going to be defeated in some way but in Doomsday's case we knew the exact way he was going to be defeated right when he showed up. And instead of doing exactly what we all knew they should do, the heroes just punched him a lot. So the film makers made Doomsday a "challenge" by making the protagonists dumb. I don't see how that's intimidating, but to each their own.

Well the fight started in Metropolis, then moved to space. The spear was in Gotham during these parts. Batman had to get him to Gotham without the aid of Superman who was incapacitated in space. WW didn't know the spear existed. They also had to weaken DD with a Kryptonite grenade before they stab him.

But anyway, this is not the discussion we were having. Stark said Ultron was 1000000 times more intimidating than any DCEU villain. I disagreed and provided examples. Ultron wasn't a threat at all in AOU.

 

[Flint Marko]

Well the fight started in Metropolis, then moved to space. The spear was in Gotham during these parts. Batman had to get him to Gotham without the aid of Superman who was incapacitated in space. WW didn't know the spear existed. They also had to weaken DD with a Kryptonite grenade before they stab him.

They had to weaken DD with a Kryptonite grenade?
Either way you haven't addressed my point. Your giant, unstoppable foe isn't intimidating when you basically give the heroes a big red button to push that will instantly kill him. It threw all tension out the window so no, I don't see how he's even slightly intimidating.

But anyway, this is not the discussion we were having. Stark said Ultron was 1000000 times more intimidating than any DCEU villain. I disagreed and provided examples. Ultron wasn't a threat at all in AOU.

And I'm disagreeing with your assessment of Doomsday and providing a pretty clear argument as to why. You can dislike Ultron all you'd like, but I don't think you have a case here.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

They had to weaken DD with a Kryptonite grenade?
Either way you haven't addressed my point. Your giant, unstoppable foe isn't intimidating when you basically give the heroes a big red button to push that will instantly kill him. It throws all tension out the window so no, I don't see how he's even slightly intimidating.

IMO the tension came from them getting back to the spear and getting the chance to use it on him. Using the grenade gave Superman a clear chance to use the spear when previously their attacks had no effect or triggered another mutation which would destroy most things in the vicinity, including possibly the spear itself.

To me he was intimidating in the sense that without the spear they were simply no match for DD and couldn't win. Also, DD wasn't weakened by Kryptonite in the comics (until much, much later at least when he started being cloned), so I doubt everyone knew the spear was what would kill him instantly.

And I'm disagreeing with your assessment of Doomsday and providing a pretty clear argument as to why. You can dislike Ultron all you'd like, but I don't think you have a case here.

Well, I also gave the examples of Zod and Faora, so I think my case stands plenty. I don't totally dislike Ultron, but he wasn't a threat in the slightest in AOU. Every battle he fought he lost, and in the final battle was he punted around like he was nothing 3/4 times. So IMO, Doomsday was more intimidating in that he was actually a threat to the heroes, where as Ultron never came across that way at all. I am certainly not saying Doomsday was a good villain. But in intimidation terms only, he beats out Ultron for me.

It's clear we don't agree, so let's agree to disagree.

 

[kguillou]

I think Ultron would have been fine if Whedon didn't blow the final battle. The snarky Spader version made sense as the progeny of Stark, and I enjoyed his interaction with the twins, Dr. Cho and his end (SPOILER ALERT!) with the Vision. What we missed was a rousing final battle with an unstoppable monster, not a well choreographed tussle with dozens of tissue bots. I wanted to see something like this:

or a small group of specialized Ultrons trashing Earth's Mightiest Heroes before a last second strategem ultimately defeated the undefeatable. Ah well, maybe we'll see an improved version in a Guardians sequel.

1000x YES. Why couldn't we get the badass, unstoppable Ultron from the comics and the cartoon? How awesome would it have been if the climax had been Ultron taking on all 9 of the Avengers and wiping the floor with them effortlessly, causing the team to really work together to figure out a way to subdue him? That's how you make a tense climax.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

1000x YES. Why couldn't we get the badass, unstoppable Ultron from the comics and the cartoon? How awesome would it have been if the climax had been Ultron taking on all 9 of the Avengers and wiping the floor with them effortlessly, causing the team to really work together to figure out a way to subdue him? That's how you make a tense climax.

that's why I hope Ultron returns some day, so we can get the real version.

 

[Boy Scout]

Have to disagree, Zod was much more intimidating. As was Faora. Even Doomsday was more scary than Ultron if we are just talking intimidation alone.

Zod was barely better than an MCU villain IMO.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Zod was barely better than an MCU villain IMO.

We were just talking in terms of being intimidating vs Ultron.

 

[Flint Marko]

IMO the tension came from them getting back to the spear and getting the chance to use it on him.

So the tension you felt was the artificial tension created by Lois throwing away the spear and then almost immediately going back to get it? Again, we're just talking about bad writing. "I have to push the big red button to stop the villain, but now I have one hand tied behind my back! Oh no! Ok good, I untied it."

Well, I also gave the examples of Zod and Faora, so I think my case stands plenty.

Note that I've specifically been talking about Doomsday.

Zod was barely better than an MCU villain IMO.

He and Superman didn't exchange quips, so that automatically puts him above the MCU villains

But for real, there wasn't much about Zod or Faoro that was intimidating either. They punched Superman an endless amount of times but I don't recall it having any sort of effect on him, whereas Ultron had a visible toll on the Avengers.

 

[Boy Scout]

We were just talking in terms of being intimidating vs Ultron.

Right. I just took it a bit further.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

So the tension you felt was the artificial tension created by Lois throwing away the spear and then almost immediately going back to get it? Again, we're just talking about bad writing. "I have to push the big red button to stop the villain, but now I have one hand tied behind my back! Oh no! Ok good, I untied it."

I won't deny it's bad writing. Lois going back to get the spear came out of . But they still had to get Doomsday to Gotham for it to work.

Note that I've specifically been talking about Doomsday.

That's fair, but I made my point about him as well as Zod and Faora at the same time. We obviously simply disagree on Doomsday.

He and Superman didn't exchange quips, so that automatically puts him above the MCU villains

But for real, there wasn't much about Zod or Faoro that was intimidating either. They punched Superman an endless amount of times but I don't recall it having any sort of effect on him, whereas Ultron had a visible toll on the Avengers.

For the record I wouldn't put Zod above every MCU villain.

But I found him and Faora SO much more intimidating than Ultron. Even against the human characters they were much more intimidating.

As for the bolded, that was superficial at best. Ultron gets his ass kicked for the majority of the movie. With even the likes of Widow and Hawkeye tearing his drones apart.

As you can see by these last few pages. I am not the only one who was disappointed in Ultron or thought he wasn't threatening.

Right. I just took it a bit further.

Fair enough. There are a couple of MCU villains I would put above Zod personally.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

On side note not long came back from the latest Transformers movie. Which had quite a good and intriguing female villain in Quintessa. With more screen time she could have been a really good villain.

Unfortunately overall the movie was a real let down. And I have enjoyed the previous 4 movies for what they were.

 

[dax]

Speaking as a big fan of the MCU, the only villain I'd call intimidating was the Winter Soldier.

Especially after watching him kill Tony's parents.

I will say, it was kind of scary when Stane paralyzed Tony and took the arc reactor out of his chest.

I don't consider the Winter Soldier to be a villain. Even if he did kill Tony's parents, he was literally puppeteered into doing so by HYDRA. Bucky is in the same position Rhodes was in Iron Man 2 as he helplessly watched himself shoot at Tony because Whiplash was controlling the War Machine suit with Rhodes still inside it. Neither Rhodes nor Bucky had any control of their own bodies to stop themselves from hurting people.

 

[Rowsdower!]

Doomsday was 10,000 times worse than any MCU villain.

Zod was decent, but I always felt something was missing in the portrayal. Shannon is a great actor but there are a few scenes that made me think he wasn't really taking the material seriously and was kinda phoning it in. Still, he was a million times better than Dex *****er in BvS.

 

[InCali]

I think the best villains were the JJ and DD villains. Part of the reason is that the format gives you time to develop them. As far as movies go, I think my favs are:

Joker (TDK....not really DCEU)
Loki
Magneto (both were really good)
Ego (liked the twist)
Doc Ock
TWS (if Ock's a villain, so is TWS)
Faora
Zemo

That's off the top of my head. I'm sure I missed some. Except the 3 at the top, the others get flipped around depending on my mood.

The worst are:

Enchantress (by a mile)
Doomsday
Ronan (he could have been great)
Apocalypse
Just about all the Spidey villains except GG

 

[metaphysician]

Doomsday was 10,000 times worse than any MCU villain.

Zod was decent, but I always felt something was missing in the portrayal. Shannon is a great actor but there are a few scenes that made me think he wasn't really taking the material seriously and was kinda phoning it in. Still, he was a million times better than Dex *****er in BvS.

I think what's missing is. . . okay, the movie practically beats you over the head with Jesus Allegory for Superman. Which, okay. And in that context, this means Zod is Satan, come to tempt Jesus on the Mountain. Which, okay.

The problem is, Zod *sucks* at being Satan. He doesn't really have a coherent "pitch" for Kal-El, such pitch as he has he delivers indifferently, and he doesn't really care about Earth in the slightest. He's not persuasive or compelling, even in a "but I acknowledge he's wrong" sense. He's not quite "just there", because there are things he wants, but they are so tangential to the main plot and themes of the movie that he might as well be. He's a square peg left hanging loosely in a round hole.

Net result: a sort of hollow villain, whose not immediately noticeable as bad, but leaves a gnawing sense of something missing. Basically, his badness is disguised behind both the actor's own charisma, and that he actually *does* fit thematically as a villain for the Jor-El story of the prologue.

 

[kguillou]

I disagree, although an extremist, Zod was sympathetic and they showed his layers in the film. He wasn't some raving "mwahaha i'm gonna destroy earth cause contrived reasons like Maleketh and Ultron." Zod loved Krypton and he was genuinely trying to preserve his race from being extinct forever. When he gives that speech at the end to Superman about how he literally destroyed Krypton forever and took his people from him, you felt kind of bad for the guy and maybe he had a slightly legitimate reason to be pissed at Superman and Shannon sold it. The guy was a warrior and had a purpose, I cannot see that as hollow.

 

[Tony Stark]

The problem with Zod is he's supposed to be this genetically engineered soldier, and Jor-El, a scientist kicks his ass easily, the only reason Zod kills him is he's distracted watching Clark's pod go off. Then he goes and fights Clark who has no training no experience and Clark has no problems handling him.

 

[2kt09]

The problem with Zod is he's supposed to be this genetically engineered soldier, and Jor-El, a scientist kicks his ass easily, the only reason Zod kills him is he's distracted watching Clark's pod go off. Then he goes and fights Clark who has no training no experience and Clark has no problems handling him.

Clark has more years of experience with both superpowers and adjusting to Earth's atmosphere. Plus, after all those conversations about how much and how he did or didn't contribute to collateral damage, it's interesting to read he suddenly had no problems.

 

[Flint Marko]

Clark has more years of experience with both superpowers and adjusting to Earth's atmosphere.

Zod brushes all that aside with his "raised on a farm" quip after he sheds his armor in a moment that is clearly supposed to show us that he's adjusted to everything quite quickly. And again, this is a guy who was nearly bested by a scientist.

Plus, after all those conversations about how much and how he did or didn't contribute to collateral damage, it's interesting to read he suddenly had no problems.

What problems did Superman face with Zod exactly, other than the obvious "this guy keeps punching me"? It's not like those punches actually mattered as they'd both just instantly get back up and throw the other through a building. The two just endlessly exchanged blows to no real effect save for the billions in property damage and thousands of lives lost, but Clark didn't seem to care at all about the collateral damage up until the screenplay told him he needed to and he snapped Zod's neck.

 

[2kt09]

Zod brushes all that aside with his "raised on a farm" quip after he sheds his armor in a moment that is clearly supposed to show us that he's adjusted to everything quite quickly. And again, this is a guy who was nearly bested by a scientist.

What problems did Superman face with Zod, exactly? The two just endlessly exchanged blows to no effect on either of them, save for the billions in property damage and thousands of lives lost over the course of their empty, numbing fight, but it's not like Clark cared about collateral damage.

That's in reference to what it took to take him out in the first encounter.
The armor is for adjusting to the atmosphere?

That...Clark was losing for most of the fight and it ended in quite the convenient maneuver.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

The biggest problem I have with Zod is that there is nothing really new about him. He's the same generic hardline military villain that we've seen a hundred times before. He's alright, but there is nothing about him at all that stands out. Very paint-by-numbers character, which needs the performance to elevate his status and Shannon is merely adequate.

I don't hate Zod. He's certainly the best DCEU villain by far. But he's nothing special either. He's okay and that's it.