Has the 'Villains Problem' been solved?

[JtheDreamer]

I liked Klaw as a villain more...more personality to him. Killmonger was rather dry to me. When it comes to dour villains with a brilliant plan that they execute on the hero(es), my fave is still Zemo. He's the villain who won. Killmonger is basically black Hitler conducting his version of the anschluss on the African diaspora.

Klaw and Zemo were nuanced characters, which I find significantly more interesting to watch.

Killemonger was entirely one-note and rode a singular tone the entire film.

 

[kedrell]

Yeah, I could agree with that. With Killmonger the moment he put on the catsuit is when he ceased to be interesting even remotely. Thankfully there's not much of that.

 

[TheVileOne]

I liked Klaw as a villain more...more personality to him. Killmonger was rather dry to me. When it comes to dour villains with a brilliant plan that they execute on the hero(es), my fave is still Zemo. He's the villain who won. Killmonger is basically black Hitler conducting his version of the anschluss on the African diaspora.

Zemo didn't win though. He wanted to bring down the Avengers. He failed to do that.

 

[kedrell]

He accomplished his goal of splitting them up and weakening them. Now if that leads to their defeat eventually(say perhaps in IW) then you'd still have to chalk that up as a win for Zemo, IMO.

 

[TheVileOne]

He accomplished his goal of splitting them up and weakening them. Now if that leads to their defeat eventually(say perhaps in IW) then you'd still have to chalk that up as a win for Zemo, IMO.

I disagree. A short time later they are already all back together and teaming up again. Even War Machine, who had his back crushed, is in Wakanda teaming up with the people who were in the fight where his back got crushed.

He tested them before. But pressure creates diamonds. And now those diamonds will shine sharper than ever. And they got a powerful new recruit in Spider-Man because of his meddling.

And he awakened a sleeping giant in T'Challa, who has now become the Avengers' newest ally.

He failed. Zemo is a complete total and utter failure. The only wins are perceived by his own deranged mind.

A win would've been the complete destruction of the Avengers and a total collapse. He failed to make that happen.

The Avengers have faced challenges like this before, infighting and such, and they always come back. He failed. He lost. He's a loser.

 

[Flint Marko]

It's aimed at Marvel because they do so much else right. So when you're perceived as being so good as so much else, but there's this one weak spot that's an ongoing thing throughout your films, it stands out more to many.

It's a situation of "well you do all of this other stuff well, so why do you keep dropping the ball in this one area."

It's actually not that hard to understand I think.

I don’t think that’s hard to understand either?

I think that’s certainly a part of it but look at Logan and Deadpool. Both of those movies did so much right while phoning in on the villain angle, but you never really hear about “Fox’s villain problem”. But if Fox were making two or three movies a year like that for the past decade, then you’d definitely hear it more. It isn’t just about “doing everything else right”, it’s about doing that consistently year after year.

 

[TheVileOne]

Those movies are pretty much standalone films. Logan was a somber end to Hugh Jackman's run as Wolverine. Deadpool is basically its own series right now with almost no connection to the other X-Men films.

And I think many would admit when Deadpool came out that Ed Skrein as Francis was the weakest part about Deadpool...except a youtuber named Grace Randolph

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

I disagree. A short time later they are already all back together and teaming up again. Even War Machine, who had his back crushed, is in Wakanda teaming up with the people who were in the fight where his back got crushed.

He tested them before. But pressure creates diamonds. And now those diamonds will shine sharper than ever. And they got a powerful new recruit in Spider-Man because of his meddling.

And he awakened a sleeping giant in T'Challa, who has now become the Avengers' newest ally.

He failed. Zemo is a complete total and utter failure. The only wins are perceived by his own deranged mind.

A win would've been the complete destruction of the Avengers and a total collapse. He failed to make that happen.

The Avengers have faced challenges like this before, infighting and such, and they always come back. He failed. He lost. He's a loser.

Well he was only fighting for his deranged mind. Not for the glory of Sokovia or to reestablish a new head of Hydra. To cross franchises just proving that The Avengers could be made to bleed was his victory, thus his willingness to commit suicide without even knowing the outcome of a Captain America versus Iron-Man fight.

 

[Solaire]

Villain problem was over exaggerated. Malekith and Kaecilius were weak but the rest were good or served their purpose. You don’t need a villain to outshine the heroes or be what everyone is talking about at the end. I always see “villain problem” when it comes to the MCU when it should definitely be brought up for DC.

 

[TheVileOne]

Well he was only fighting for his deranged mind. Not for the glory of Sokovia or to reestablish a new head of Hydra. To cross franchises just proving that The Avengers could be made to bleed was his victory, thus his willingness to commit suicide without even knowing the outcome of a Captain America versus Iron-Man fight.

That's a hollow victory at best. Not even a moral one. Showing that the Avengers bleed doesn't stop people running to hide behind them when danger comes again.

 

[Loki882]

Zemo didn't care about that, he just wanted vengeance for his family. Also the Avengers only come back together (and the Russo's have said that the Tony and Steve tension is NOT completely gone even in IW), because Thanos (whom Zemo had no way of knowing even existed) attacks Earth.

He accomplished what he set out to do, if you tried to call his victory "hollow" to his face, he'd probably tell you "I don't care."

Anyway, I'm not nearly as fond of him as many others seem to be. I found him to be a rather generic villain only held up by a strong performance by the actor. Killmonger was FAR more interesting to me (as was Vulture and even Ego).

 

[MbJ]

I liked Zemo but I think part of the problem was he's almost an afterthought in the film. He barely has any screentime and the film is already full of so much personal drama that you almost don't need a villain.

By comparison, with Killmonger and Vulture, enough narrative focus was placed on them that we got to know them and sympathize with their points of view, even if their methods were despicable.

 

[TheVileOne]

Zemo didn't care about that, he just wanted vengeance for his family. Also the Avengers only come back together (and the Russo's have said that the Tony and Steve tension is NOT completely gone even in IW), because Thanos (whom Zemo had no way of knowing even existed) attacks Earth.

He accomplished what he set out to do, if you tried to call his victory "hollow" to his face, he'd probably tell you "I don't care."

Anyway, I'm not nearly as fond of him as many others seem to be. I found him to be a rather generic villain only held up by a strong performance by the actor. Killmonger was FAR more interesting to me (as was Vulture and even Ego).

Is that what he will say when they come together to save the world again?

 

[CLARKY]

I never thought there was a problem to begin with. They can't have each villains the same kind of thread and charisma each time.
Obadiah stane/Iron Monger was, in my opinion, was of the best villains because he was a reflection of Tony, but above all he was not a big true costumed villain. And I thoughtit was well thought to allow to "villainness" of the franchise to grow.

Kacilius wasthe same idea but I admit I was disappointed a bit. Especially when they had such a good actorto play the part.
Killmonger wasthe same idea but here again,I think they went too far. The guy is the equal of T'challa, right off the bat. And to bring into the light such a strong villain, you need to have done with your hero first, I think.
Because the only thing I disliked a bit in BP was that the plot forces things to much during the second half of the film.

I loved Zemo, but I wish I could see him more and/or fight Cap.
I never considered there was a problem with the villain except the mandarin. They can't nor shouldn't betop classy, top amazing, top top, everytime.

 

[Aztec]

Klaw and Zemo were nuanced characters, which I find significantly more interesting to watch.

Killemonger was entirely one-note and rode a singular tone the entire film.

Ummmm....what? Killmonger was one of the most emotionally complex villains in recent memory. I’d hardy call him “one note”.

 

[Solaire]

It's aimed at Marvel because they do so much else right. So when you're perceived as being so good as so much else, but there's this one weak spot that's an ongoing thing throughout your films, it stands out more to many.

It's a situation of "well you do all of this other stuff well, so why do you keep dropping the ball in this one area."

It's actually not that hard to understand I think.

It’s still pretty silly though. Malekith, Kaecilius and maybe Ronan are the worst of the bunch but they aren’t as bad as X-24, a magneto who is good then bad every film, Enchantress, Joker, Ares, etc. The villains are still somewhat good. Darren Cross, Ultron, Killian are all decent to good, they aren’t outright terrible at all.

I think the issue now is that you either need an amazing job by the actor like Ledger did with Joker or someone who is relatable and who you feel sorry for. And if you don’t do either every review starts with “bad villain again”. Watching that BP review online and immediately hearing best villain since Loki just grindied my gears.
I thought Zemo was great, Winter Soldier was a fantastic villain in Winter Soldier and Vulture was amazing. Yet Loki is always brought up because he’s appeared the most and we felt sorry for him.

 

[Loki882]

Ummmm....what? Killmonger was one of the most emotionally complex villains in recent memory. I’d hardy call him “one note”.

Also Klaw was the quintessential "cackling villain." Entertaining, oh yes, but not "complex" or "deep."

 

[Loki882]

It’s still pretty silly though. Malekith, Kaecilius and maybe Ronan are the worst of the bunch but they aren’t as bad as X-24, a magneto who is good then bad every film, Enchantress, Joker, Ares, etc. The villains are still somewhat good. Darren Cross, Ultron, Killian are all decent to good, they aren’t outright terrible at all.

I think the issue now is that you either need an amazing job by the actor like Ledger did with Joker or someone who is relatable and who you feel sorry for. And if you don’t do either every review starts with “bad villain again”. Watching that BP review online and immediately hearing best villain since Loki just grindied my gears.
I thought Zemo was great, Winter Soldier was a fantastic villain in Winter Soldier and Vulture was amazing. Yet Loki is always brought up because he’s appeared the most and we felt sorry for him.

I'd disagree that Killian and Cross were "good." They were decidedly "meh" imo.

 

[JtheDreamer]

Ummmm....what? Killmonger was one of the most emotionally complex villains in recent memory. I’d hardy call him “one note”.

Most emotionally complex?

Watch more movies please.

 

[JtheDreamer]

Also Klaw was the quintessential "cackling villain." Entertaining, oh yes, but not "complex" or "deep."

You're putting words in my mouth. I said "nuanced".

That's because Andy Serkis is 10 times the actor MBJ is. So there's no shocker there.

 

[Finarfiniel]

Also Klaw was the quintessential "cackling villain." Entertaining, oh yes, but not "complex" or "deep."

Again, why does every villain have to be 'complex' or 'deep' to be deemed as being a good villain? Sometimes the audience just want to be entertained by a fun, hammy, larger than life 'cackling villain', not everything has to be super-deep. Nothing wrong with that. I also really enjoyed Klaw, Andy Serkis was great fun and [BLACKOUT]I'm so bummed that they killed him off[/BLACKOUT].

 

[JtheDreamer]

Again, why does every villain have to be 'complex' or 'deep' to be deemed as being a good villain? Sometimes the audience just want to be entertained by a fun, hammy, larger than life 'cackling villain', not everything has to be super-deep. Nothing wrong with that. I also really enjoyed Klaw, Andy Serkis was great fun and [BLACKOUT]I'm so bummed that they killed him off[/BLACKOUT].

I'm bummed too man. Complete waste of a great character.

 

[DACrowe]

The "villain problem" was always exaggerated, especially compared to what the competition was putting out, but a series of really good villains in 2017-18 has really put an end to the argument having any teeth to it at all.

I think it was a more than fair argument from 2008-2016, when the most interesting villain was great for comic relief or being seen as kind of pathetic (Loki). And at the time, we were comparing it to the Nolan Trilogy's plethora of iconic villains. But yes, in that time no one has had that level of quality villain since (although I really liked Michael Shannon in MOS, too bad the movie is a mess).

But yeah, I agree Marvel has addressed the problem. Vulture is a good villain and Killmonger is a great one. Hela was fun and what her movie needed, if a bit disappointingly wasted. And when compared to what happened at the DCEU and Apocalypse, yeah, Marvel has course corrected hard.

Now... if they could do something about the cinematography.

 

[Aztec]

Most emotionally complex?

Watch more movies please.

It seems like you need to since almost all of the critics agree with me. Lol

 

[GoblinScrier]

Well I don't mind if a villian overshadows the heroes....with Thanos and his Black Order I hope they stand out as epic characters that will leave us in awe.

Eventually when a comic book accurate Doom is portrayed, I want all characters to tremble and be left in the dust at his portrayal.