The Villains Problem

[NotSoLongAgo]

He wasn't some raving "mwahaha i'm gonna destroy earth cause contrived reasons like Maleketh and Ultron." .

Thats exactly what he was. Zod was turrible

 

[Flint Marko]

That's in reference to what it took to take him out in the first encounter.
The armor is for adjusting to the atmosphere?

Not sure about the armor, but that isn't my point. His "raised on a farm" quip and what happened thereafter seemingly negated Clark's years of adjusting to the earth's atmosphere.

That...Clark was losing for most of the fight and it ended in quite the convenient maneuver.

How was Clark losing for most of the fight? Weren't you just saying that Clark had the upperhand because he had years of adjusting to the atmosphere? Clark got thrown through a lot of buildings but so did Zod. Again, no real effect on either of them so it's tough to say who was "losing". Technically Zod was losing since the world engines were both destroyed.

Whatever, I can already tell that this is getting pedantic. My problem with the Zod fight is that it's an endless barrage of punching that only stops because the screenwriters know the movie is hitting the two hour mark and they have to abruptly end the fireworks. Zod could have been an interesting villain (and frankly I don't have a big problem with him, I think he's serviceable) but like everything else in Man of Steel, it's lip service to bigger ideas that never pay off.

 

[2kt09]

Not sure about the armor, but that isn't my point. His "raised on a farm" quip and what happened thereafter seemingly negated Clark's years of adjusting to the earth's atmosphere.

How was Clark losing for most of the fight? And wait, weren't you just saying that Clark had the upperhand because he had years of adjusting to the atmosphere...?

My problem with the Zod fight is that it's an endless barrage of punching that only stops because the screenwriters know the movie is hitting the two hour mark and they have to abruptly end the fireworks. Zod could have been an interesting villain (and frankly I don't have a big problem with him, I think he's serviceable) but like everything else in Man of Steel, it's lip service to bigger ideas that never pay off.

It's not a negation. He's taking the armor off as a haughty gesture.
I'll make your point for you. He and his soldiers got used to superpowers much faster than Clark and their training was integrated into how they fought and countered attacks.

Clark has the inherent upperhand of adjusting to the atmosphere and superpowers in that initial ram into a bunch of things until something happens encounter.

Zod is military overthrowing of a government nearing the apocalypse
-> saving his people's way of life
-> 'nothing left to live for' personal vendetta

 

[Flint Marko]

It's not a negation. He's taking the armor off as a haughty gesture.
I'll make your point for you. He and his soldiers got used to superpowers much faster than Clark and their training was integrated into how they fought and countered attacks.

Didn't need you to make the point I already made, but good job refuting your own argument

Clark has the inherent upperhand of adjusting to the atmosphere and superpowers in that initial ram into a bunch of things until something happens encounter.

Zod is military overthrowing of a government nearing the apocalypse
-> saving his people's way of life
-> 'nothing left to live for' personal vendetta

Yeah... again, this is just getting pedantic and away from my original point.

 

[2kt09]

Didn't need you to make the point I already made, but good job refuting your own argument



Yeah... again, this is just getting pedantic and away from my original point.

Well, I have to because you're not good at it. The armor isn't making your point which you thought it did.
You went to Zod could have been an interesting villain. I'm continuing the discussion given the thread we're in...

 

[Flint Marko]

Well, I have to because you're not good at it. The armor isn't making your point which you thought it did.

Check the tape, four posts above this one. I straight up said that the armor wasn't my point, so go ahead and take the L. If you're going to condescend to someone (which you clearly love to do, towards me at least) make sure to read carefully.

 

[2kt09]

Check the tape, four posts above this one. I straight up said that the armor wasn't my point, so go ahead and take the L. If you're going to condescend to someone (which you clearly love to do, towards me at least) make sure to read carefully.

You were going on about the atmosphere adjustment not the superpower thing. You brought up the armor in respect to that. That's why your point got muddled.

 

[Boy Scout]

I disagree, although an extremist, Zod was sympathetic and they showed his layers in the film. He wasn't some raving "mwahaha i'm gonna destroy earth cause contrived reasons like Maleketh and Ultron." Zod loved Krypton and he was genuinely trying to preserve his race from being extinct forever. When he gives that speech at the end to Superman about how he literally destroyed Krypton forever and took his people from him, you felt kind of bad for the guy and maybe he had a slightly legitimate reason to be pissed at Superman and Shannon sold it. The guy was a warrior and had a purpose, I cannot see that as hollow.

There's nothing sympathetic about him.

 

[Flint Marko]

You were going on about the atmosphere adjustment not the superpower thing. You brought up the armor in respect to that. That's why your point got muddled.

Make all the excuses you'd like, this isn't the first time you've patronized me after misunderstanding what I've been saying. Just remember this the next time you feel like doing so.

 

[2kt09]

Make all the excuses you'd like, this isn't the first time you've patronized me after misunderstanding what I've been saying. Just remember this the next time you feel like doing so.

Fine.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I disagree, although an extremist, Zod was sympathetic and they showed his layers in the film. He wasn't some raving "mwahaha i'm gonna destroy earth cause contrived reasons like Maleketh and Ultron." Zod loved Krypton and he was genuinely trying to preserve his race from being extinct forever. When he gives that speech at the end to Superman about how he literally destroyed Krypton forever and took his people from him, you felt kind of bad for the guy and maybe he had a slightly legitimate reason to be pissed at Superman and Shannon sold it. The guy was a warrior and had a purpose, I cannot see that as hollow.

 

[CaptainWagner]

There's nothing sympathetic about him.

How is none of that sympathetic? His entire purpose as a villain was to save his own race, while Superman "betrayed" them to save Earth instead.

 

[Mjölnir]

I disagree, although an extremist, Zod was sympathetic and they showed his layers in the film. He wasn't some raving "mwahaha i'm gonna destroy earth cause contrived reasons like Maleketh and Ultron." Zod loved Krypton and he was genuinely trying to preserve his race from being extinct forever. When he gives that speech at the end to Superman about how he literally destroyed Krypton forever and took his people from him, you felt kind of bad for the guy and maybe he had a slightly legitimate reason to be pissed at Superman and Shannon sold it. The guy was a warrior and had a purpose, I cannot see that as hollow.

Zod had a worse reason for destroying Earth than both Malekith and Ultron because his goal didn't have any need for that at all, while it was fundamental to the goals of the other two. Zod could easily have terraformed another planet and, by doing that, taken the most secure shot at keeping Krypton alive.

Of course he didn't because he's one of the most incompetent villains in the history of the genre. A genetically bred soldier and leader, yet can't even beat a scientist in a fight, nor get his own military behind him. It only makes sense that he took the only course of action that really risked failure for his plans to resurrect Krypton.

 

[GeckoMoria]

I liked Zod but Shannon was hamming it up biggg time. For a naturally bred disciplined solider he sure went off the handle way too easily.

 

[Slade W]

It is still early days (only 4 movies), but DC deserve criticism for their handling of villains too, IMO. Marvel get criticised for it more, but I think that is because people generally do not have many issues with their movies, so their consistent poor handling of villains stands out a lot more as one of the few big flaws, whereas with DC, people generally have lots of issues with their movies, so their poor handling of villains does not stand out as much. If DC put out more movies that are received as well as WW has been, but continue to put out villains of the same standard as what they have put out so far, they will start to get criticised for it a lot like Marvel do, IMO.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

It is still early days (only 4 movies), but DC deserve criticism for their handling of villains too, IMO. Marvel get criticised for it more, but I think that is because people generally do not have many issues with their movies, so their consistent poor handling of villains stands out a lot more as one of the few big flaws, whereas with DC, people generally have lots of issues with their movies, so their poor handling of villains does not stand out as much. If DC put out more movies that are received as well as WW has been, but continue to put out villains of the same standard as what they have put out so far, they will start to get criticised for it a lot like Marvel do, IMO.

Next one up is Justice League where Steppenwolf is the villain. Maybe growing up in the 1960s I can't take a villain named Steppenwolf seriously. When I hear the name the songs "Born to be Wild" and "The Pusher" pop into my head.
Am more of a Batman and Catwoman fan, so I never read any comic books with Steppenwolf in them. He might be the most awesome villain ever. But the name just takes me out of it.

 

[Mjölnir]

Next one up is Justice League where Steppenwolf is the villain. Maybe growing up in the 1960s I can't take a villain named Steppenwolf seriously. When I hear the name the songs "Born to be Wild" and "The Pusher" pop into my head.
Am more of a Batman and Catwoman fan, so I never read any comic books with Steppenwolf in them. He might be the most awesome villain ever. But the name just takes me out of it.

I grew up in the 80s/90s and I'm very familiar with the band name as well, while being unfamiliar with the villain. The name is certainly a bit of a concern, as I also find it to be weird for what he is, so they'll better make sure it's a good character on screen to eliminate that issue.

 

[Visualiza]

How is none of that sympathetic? His entire purpose as a villain was to save his own race, while Superman "betrayed" them to save Earth instead.

Probably because he was a walking contradiction and genetically programmed. I found him pretty hard to take seriously for a variety of reasons, the above included.

 

[Boy Scout]

How is none of that sympathetic?

Because his solution was genocide. He could've taken the ship and colonized another planet, but chose not to.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Because his solution was genocide. He could've taken the ship and colonized another planet, but chose not to.

Basically Zod had little reason to try and exterminate the people of Earth. Yes, he does want to ensure the survival of his species but he had other better, more peaceful options that he never even considered. Futhermore, he was already a violent madman even back on Krypton.

An actual sympathetic villain would be like Magneto. Magneto tries to commit genocide as well, just like Zod. Obviously we are meant to agree with Charles, and rightfully so, but in the case of Magneto, he has real reason to believe that it is the only option for the future of mutantkind. He personally experienced the Holocaust. He personally witnessed the humans unite try to wipe out the mutants in Cuba, even those on their own side that just helped to prevent World War III. He tried to live in peace with a family only to see them brutally murdered. Magneto's whole life has been one big tragedy.

 

[dax]

An actual sympathetic villain would be like Magneto. Magneto tries to commit genocide as well, just like Zod. Obviously we are meant to agree with Charles, and rightfully so, but in the case of Magneto, he has real reason to believe that it is the only option for the future of mutantkind. He personally experienced the Holocaust. He personally witnessed the humans unite try to wipe out the mutants in Cuba, even those on their own side that just helped to prevent World War III. He tried to live in peace with a family only to see them brutally murdered. Magneto's whole life has been one big tragedy.

By the time Magneto is an old man, even he realized that every action he took to protect mutantkind has only made things worse. It all led to the Sentinels taking over the earth and killing all mutants which led Magneto to see the errors of his ways. He acknowledges to Charles that he was wrong to fight against his peacekeeping approach when he made his "All those years wasted" speech.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

By the time Magneto is an old man, even he realized that every action he took to protect mutantkind has only made things worse. It all led to the Sentinels taking over the earth and killing all mutants which led Magneto to see the errors of his ways. He acknowledges to Charles that he was wrong to fight against his peacekeeping approach when he made his "All those years wasted" speech.

That too.

 

[Tony Stark]

I liked Zod but Shannon was hamming it up biggg time. For a naturally bred disciplined solider he sure went off the handle way too easily.

Agreed

 

[Rowsdower!]

OMG that pic. LOL.

Yeah... I feel like Zod's plan needed to be fleshed out a bit more. I'm not sure, but I don't recall any scene where he said anything about why he HAD to terraform Earth, as opposed to some other planet that may have been uninhabited. As a result, he just comes off like an evil bastard rather than a guy who is trying to bring his people back. And that's fine if they just wanted to make him a pure evil character, but they attempted to make him sympathetic too and I don't think it worked.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

OMG that pic. LOL.

Yeah... I feel like Zod's plan needed to be fleshed out a bit more. I'm not sure, but I don't recall any scene where he said anything about why he HAD to terraform Earth, as opposed to some other planet that may have been uninhabited. As a result, he just comes off like an evil bastard rather than a guy who is trying to bring his people back. And that's fine if they just wanted to make him a pure evil character, but they attempted to make him sympathetic too and I don't think it worked.

If they wanted to make him sympathetic they could have by explaining that it had to be Earth for some reason and showing that he really would prefer not to do it but felt his people would become extinct if he didn't.

Instead he's just a maniac that views humans as insects.