The Villains Problem

[The_Manhunter]

I mean, I don't think there's been too much of a problem. The only ones I've really disliked were the Mandarin and maybe Enchantress (she's alright, I just think she was a bad choice for the SS to fight).

If you're comparing them all to Heath, ya, I'm sure that makes them look worse. Just don't go into these movies with high expectations for the villains is I guess what I'm saying.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

I mean, I don't think there's been too much of a problem. The only ones I've really disliked were the Mandarin and maybe Enchantress (she's alright, I just think she was a bad choice for the SS to fight).

If you're comparing them all to Heath, ya, I'm sure that makes them look worse. Just don't go into these movies with high expectations for the villains is I guess what I'm saying.

The problem I have with the villains is in a lot of movies the villain is the main focus of the movie and the only purpose of the hero is to service the villain.
It's like the film maker fell in love with the villain and the hero is just there to make the villain look good. Joker in Batman, Penguin and Catwoman in Batman Returns,
Joker in The Dark Knight, Bane in The Dark Knight Rises, Lex Luthor in Superman v Batman. Notice that in movies where people claim the villain is weak, the hero is
the focus of the movie. Wonder Woman being the most recent example.

 

[Guard82]

The problem I have with the villains is in a lot of movies the villain is the main focus of the movie and the only purpose of the hero is to service the villain.
It's like the film maker fell in love with the villain and the hero is just there to make the villain look good. Joker in Batman, Penguin and Catwoman in Batman Returns,
Joker in The Dark Knight, Bane in The Dark Knight Rises, Lex Luthor in Superman v Batman. Notice that in movies where people claim the villain is weak, the hero is
the focus of the movie. Wonder Woman being the most recent example.

You're definitely right that in movies where the hero is unquestionably the focus of the story, the villains tend to be among the weaker elements of the film. It doesn't always have to be this way, but it often is because the filmmakers' priorities are reflected in which characters receive the most attention and best treatment. In movies where the villain upstages everyone else, the hero sometimes comes across as being overshadowed in his/her own movie. This happened frequently in the original Batman film series.

In the list of villains you provide, only Lex Luthor comes across as a weak villain, and that's because he was written so poorly in BvS. The other villains in your list tended to dominate their films because they were especially exciting and/or they were very charismatic.

 

[Lantern Venom]

I liked Zod but Shannon was hamming it up biggg time. For a naturally bred disciplined solider he sure went off the handle way too easily.

I assumed that his genetic engineering meant heighten levels of aggression. Soldiers, cops, bodyguards, and even athletes often say that existing in a world where confrontational responses are necessary can make navigating other areas of life more challenging.

Next one up is Justice League where Steppenwolf is the villain. Maybe growing up in the 1960s I can't take a villain named Steppenwolf seriously. When I hear the name the songs "Born to be Wild" and "The Pusher" pop into my head.
Am more of a Batman and Catwoman fan, so I never read any comic books with Steppenwolf in them. He might be the most awesome villain ever. But the name just takes me out of it.

There's a famous psychoanalytical novel named "Steppenwolf", which comes from the German word (or perhaps one of their words) for coyote.

Because his solution was genocide. He could've taken the ship and colonized another planet, but chose not to.

I have to agree that he wasn't sympathetic. He reminded me of all of the historical tyrants who have slaughtered political dissenters, religious minority groups, gays, etc. They rationalize their moral bankruptcy with some version of "I did it to keep my country strong."

 

[Mjölnir]

I assumed that his genetic engineering meant heighten levels of aggression. Soldiers, cops, bodyguards, and even athletes often say that existing in a world where confrontational responses are necessary can make navigating other areas of life more challenging.

Since Krypton had been genetically engineering their population for a longer time than human civilization has existed I think that the Captain America experiment should seem kind of weak in comparison. And still I can't see anything in any Kryptonian in MoS that seems different from what I can expect from any natural human. That's a big part of why I was disappointed with Krypton. They mention this wonderfully dystopian society that's messed up both socially and genetically, but then we're just shown things that seem like normal humans in space.

 

[First Avenger]

Unless the villains are really,really bad like the infamous trio from ASM2,Eisenlex,Letoker or every iteration of Doom,I really have no problem with most villains in CBMs. However one I don't see mentioned often is Apocalypse. I cringed every single time his face was in front of the camera. He was hammy and boring as hell. A big disappointment from Singer who generally directs good villains.

 

[Erzengel]

I've seen complaints about Apocalypse but it usually gets the "pass" from the X-Men fans.

 

[Rowsdower!]

Ah yes. Apocalypse was awful and it's such a shame because he's a GREAT villain in the comics. I shouldn't have been too surprised though. I mean, Singer already ruined my other favorite X-Men character (Cyclops) in multiple movies, so OF COURSE he was going to ruin my favorite X-Men villain. Ironically, he actually did an okay job with Cyke in XM:A though.

 

[The_Manhunter]

Unless the villains are really,really bad like the infamous trio from ASM2,Eisenlex,Letoker or every iteration of Doom,I really have no problem with most villains in CBMs. However one I don't see mentioned often is Apocalypse. I cringed every single time his face was in front of the camera. He was hammy and boring as hell. A big disappointment from Singer who generally directs good villains.

I think it's just down to personal taste.

Lex I loved. Letoker I thought we didn't get enough of to really judge, but what I did see I liked.

Apocalypse is an interesting case. Oscar Isaac I thought did a GREAT job but IDK there was just something missing.

 

[GeckoMoria]

You loved Lex? What Lex? There was no Lex in BvS...

 

[Infinity9999x]

The problem I have with the villains is in a lot of movies the villain is the main focus of the movie and the only purpose of the hero is to service the villain.
It's like the film maker fell in love with the villain and the hero is just there to make the villain look good. Joker in Batman, Penguin and Catwoman in Batman Returns,
Joker in The Dark Knight, Bane in The Dark Knight Rises, Lex Luthor in Superman v Batman. Notice that in movies where people claim the villain is weak, the hero is
the focus of the movie. Wonder Woman being the most recent example.

I agree with some of these examples. In TDK, Joker only had about 25ish minutes of screen time, so I don't think you can say he was the focus. He's the catalyst for the action, and Heath gave a once in a lifetime performance, so he's incredibly well remembered, but I wouldn't say the focus of the film was exclusively the Joker.

 

[Guard82]

As we've discussed, in some movies the villain steals the spotlight from the hero, while in other movies, the villain feels like an afterthought and merely a functional part of the story because the focus is on the hero. One comic book movie that I think balances the two quite well is Spider-Man 2. In that film, both the hero and the villain are very strongly developed characters. Spider-Man is the main focus of the story, and it's clearly his movie, but the villain, Doctor Octopus, still receives an excellent portrayal.

Doc Ock doesn't dominate the movie the way the Joker dominates Tim Burton's Batman and Chris Nolan's The Dark Knight, but Ock is still one of the major highlights of the film. He's written very well, he looks great in action, and he's wonderfully acted by Alfred Molina. All in all, he's one of the most memorable CBM villains ever. In Spider-Man 2, Dr. Octopus is an example of a CBM villain who gives a standout performance without taking the main focus away from the hero.

 

[The_Manhunter]

You loved Lex? What Lex? There was no Lex in BvS...

Sure there was. Straight from the comics.

 

[GeckoMoria]

Sure there was. Straight from the comics.

You got to be kidding me right now. That or you haven't read many comics in your life...

 

[The Joker]

Sure there was. Straight from the comics.

Comic book writer Mark Waid's opinion on the BvS version of Luthor;

 

[Batmannerism]

As we've discussed, in some movies the villain steals the spotlight from the hero, while in other movies, the villain feels like an afterthought and merely a functional part of the story because the focus is on the hero. One comic book movie that I think balances the two quite well is Spider-Man 2. In that film, both the hero and the villain are very strongly developed characters. Spider-Man is the main focus of the story, and it's clearly his movie, but the villain, Doctor Octopus, still receives an excellent portrayal.

Doc Ock doesn't dominate the movie the way the Joker dominates Tim Burton's Batman and Chris Nolan's The Dark Knight, but Ock is still one of the major highlights of the film. He's written very well, he looks great in action, and he's wonderfully acted by Alfred Molina. All in all, he's one of the most memorable CBM villains ever. In Spider-Man 2, Dr. Octopus is an example of a CBM villain who gives a standout performance without taking the main focus away from the hero.

Agreed, it is possible to have a great villain and a great hero in the same film ( eg Die Hard ) it's just hard to get the balance right. I feel like Ledger's Joker would have taken over the movie IF he'd been given more screen time. Ultimately I felt like it was still Batman's movie, but Ledger's performance was so amazing that it remains the most memorable thing - having said that I thought the interrogation scene was great, with both actors pulling out all the stops.

While Loki is incredibly well performed, he doesn't take over Avengers, because Whedon keeps the action focused on the heroes.

To me SM2 got the balance right, but I found Doc Ock's whole plan just a bit silly ( I'm going to build a small sun to prove..... Something). But otherwise a great villain.

 

[The_Manhunter]

You got to be kidding me right now. That or you haven't read many comics in your life...

I have read comics. I quite like them.

Geoff Johns also has, and he agrees with me.

 

[The_Manhunter]

Comic book writer Mark Waid's opinion on the BvS version of Luthor;

Comic book writer Geoff Johns's opinion on the BvS version of Luthor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJYu7yiS5mA

 

[Tony Stark]

You may have liked the Social Network Lex, but pretty much no one else did. I'll take Kevin Spacey's Lex any day of the week over him.

 

[The Joker]

Comic book writer Geoff Johns's opinion on the BvS version of Luthor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJYu7yiS5mA

That video is 12 minutes long. Where exactly am I listening to?

 

[DeadStroke]

The more I think about the Lex in BvS the more I think its a very interesting take on the character.

This issue is Jesse. If you put Michael Fassbender or James MCavoy (Damn you X-Men!) in this role it would have been fantastic.

 

[DeadStroke]

I think other MCU villains have moments where they generate a threatening presence, but Winter Soldier is the only one to create a constant sense of dread and tension, IMO.

My favorite baddies from the series are probably Loki, Ego, and Zemo. I like Stane and Red Skull a lot too. Winter Soldier is a great boogeyman but less interesting as a character, which is balanced out by Pierce having great dialogue/acting but no physical presence. Even Ultron I like more than I dislike, qualms aside.

I really think Black Panther has a chance to do something special with Andy Serkis and Michael B. Jordan. I think that film will have that constant sense of dead and tension.

 

[The_Manhunter]

You may have liked the Social Network Lex, but pretty much no one else did. I'll take Kevin Spacey's Lex any day of the week over him.

Geoff Johns counts as someone else, I'm pretty sure.

And ya though, I thought Spacey was decent - I just don't care for the rest of the film.

 

[Rowsdower!]

Johns served a producer on BvS and is now the co-head of the DCEU. He may genuinely love the BvS portrayal of Luthor but WB is paying him a lot of money to do so.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

It's not like Geoff Johns is going to throw Jesse Eisenberg under the bus. Especially since Johns is stuck with Eisenberg as Lex in Justice League. Afterwards if Lex isn't going to be in anymore DC movie,
Johns could very well admit that Eisenberg's Lex was the wrong approach. But at this point in time Johns isn't going to sabotage Justice League by saying this Lex was a horrible choice.