The "Wars of the Past" Thread

[Thundercrack85]

Stalin was a smart guy. He would just call a truce, solidify his power over East Europe, and slowly conquer West Europe. One state at a time. Support internal revolutionaries, set up puppet states, etc.

 

[Schlosser85]

That is far more likely. Maybe Hitler would have been better off to try the same, except A) Stalin was more calm and calculating than Hitler, who rushed impulsively into reckless decisions, and B) the Nazis were too obsessed with their crackpot racial ideas to be content with anything but outright conquering the "untermensch".

 

[Thundercrack85]

Hitler, or at least some Nazis had that idea, for a while. And they actually did rally fascists to their cause. A number of White Russians (those who lost the Russian Civil War to the Reds) joined them, as well as fascists in Croatia and Romania. And Italy, though they had their own thing going. Vichy France was a good example of setting up a fascist puppet state.

Problem was, like you said, they had crackpot theories, and fascism doesn't lend itself to multiculturalism. So at best, it turned into the League of *******s, who barely cooperated with each other. That's the thing about nationalists, they don't make for good bedfellows.

The Axis was a terrible alliance.

 

[Hobgoblin]

All of this always amazes me, how Germany and Russia changed positions in our minds so quickly. In 1945, Germany was America's mortal enemy and Russia was our ally. Two years later, it was the other way around.

As for the Axis being a very "strange bedfellows" alliance, I cant agree more. I always thought it strange that Nazi Germany was willing to cooperate with Imperial Japan. The mutual contempt for each other must have been palpable.

 

[8wid]

As nasty as Germany and Japan were to their subject peoples, the Soviet Union and People's Republic of China were much worse. America never had a reason to go to war with them and even was able to negotiate in a peaceful way at times. Why wouldn't the same have been true of the Japanese Empire and the Greater German Reich?

 

[Thundercrack85]

Because the Japanese wanted to conquer Asia. America had considerable investments there. That's why they came into conflict in the first place.

As for Europe, yeah, that really only happened because Germany declared war on America. Though not for a lack of trying.

You'll recall that the US also fought a war with China in the 1950's in Korea. Though they never tried to conquer territories across the Pacific.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

All of this always amazes me, how Germany and Russia changed positions in our minds so quickly. In 1945, Germany was America's mortal enemy and Russia was our ally. Two years later, it was the other way around.

Japan and China too. Same story.

 

[Venom75]

I've always wondered if Germany and Japan could've treated Russia like Poland in 1939. One invades from the East,the other from the West?
But truthfully,it has always irritated me that Russia was never punished for it's invasions of Poland(helping to start the war),Finland;etc. The West(esp. Roosevelt)was so eager to keep Stalin happy that they were willing to overlook all the atrocities.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I've always wondered if Germany and Japan could've treated Russia like Poland in 1939. One invades from the East,the other from the West?
But truthfully,it has always irritated me that Russia was never punished for it's invasions of Poland(helping to start the war),Finland;etc. The West(esp. Roosevelt)was so eager to keep Stalin happy that they were willing to overlook all the atrocities.

That's an interesting idea, but the Japanese had already "spent" most of their army in China. However, even a relatively small force could have occupied Russia's far east. But they wouldn't be able to move too far inland. If we're talking circa 1941.

What really ruined the Germans' plans for Russia was Italy screwing up in the Balkans, which delayed the invasion, since the Germans had to send a million troops to bail Italy out of Greece and Albania. Which meant that they lost their ideal invasion window (i.e. spring). And we all know what happens when you invade Russia too late. Winter.

 

[Hobgoblin]

I think the Germans even tried to get the Japanese to attack Russia to take pressure off of the Eastern front. Japan decided that the U.S. was a softer target (whoops). Plus, they were running low on oil, which the Philippine waters were rich with. Yes that meant war with America but as I said, that was seen as preferable.

 

[Venom75]

Japan didn't even really have to attack Russia,but just the threat of an invasion would've tied down Soviet forces in the far east. Once it became clear to Stalin that Japan would not attack(thanks to Soviet spies in Tokyo)then he was free to send badly needed troops against the Nazis.
Another case of the Axis not really working together.

 

[Thundercrack85]

In hindsight, it is rather strange that Germany went to war with the United States for Japan. However, Hitler likely thought that it was inevitable (as most people did by that point). And presumably he hoped to topple Russia by the time the Americans would show up in France. Keep in mind, this is Adolf bat**** crazy Hitler we're talking about. The man who learned nothing from World War I.

In a way it's funny, because some of the smartest military commanders (like Yamamoto) knew that declaring war on America was suicide. But the madmen running the show(s) didn't listen.

 

[8wid]

Hitler's own delusions of grandeur what were what cost him the war. He might very well have won it if not for a need to seem so spectacular. If he destroyed the British Navy amassed near France in 1940, destroyed the Royal Air Force and invaded the British Isles instead of launching a war against the Soviet Union in a glorious war against communism, if he didn't declare war on the United States whatsoever. D-Day could have been prevented if France was more heavily fortified, Hitler could have taken the Suez Canal with just a few Panzer divisions, and even used mass produced jet aircraft to wipe out the Allied bombers. Hitler had a gold mine of opportunities to win that he just threw out the door to pursue fantasies. It's a frightening idea of a truly intelligent leader had taken control of Germany in the 1930s and was just as ambitious.

 

[Venom75]

I don't really think Hitler was insane,as many people think. When you think about it,all that he touched pretty much turned to gold up untill 1941-42. It's my personal opinion that drugs and the onset of Parkinson's had alot to do with his crazy decision making after 1941. His quack doctor was giving him all these medications that really affected him in negative ways and after the bomb plot of '44 he never trusted another military commander again. Plus,it's easy to look back now and say he should've done this or that.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Hitler had a lot of competent people backing him. But he grew increasingly unstable, presumably from the stress of fighting a global war and most of the world wanting him dead. And as a result, he made very bad choices. He killed one of his best generals based on a rumor (Rommel), and he dismissed a number for simply disagreeing with him (doing their job). The drugs certainly couldn't have helped.

Though how sane Hitler was to begin with is debatable.

 

[Hobgoblin]

I don't really think Hitler was insane,as many people think. When you think about it,all that he touched pretty much turned to gold up untill 1941-42. It's my personal opinion that drugs and the onset of Parkinson's had alot to do with his crazy decision making after 1941. His quack doctor was giving him all these medications that really affected him in negative ways and after the bomb plot of '44 he never trusted another military commander again. Plus,it's easy to look back now and say he should've done this or that.

Hitler was a narcissist. He disregarded the plans of his generals and implemented his own. He may have been bipolar and the drugs only made his mania worse.

If he had been sensible, he would have continued bombing Britain's radar system instead of targeting London in a pointless blitz. Instead he flew into a rage after the RAF bombed Berlin in retaliation for the Luftwaffe's accidental bombing on London.

 

[Venom75]

Just from studying him for a few decades now,and this is just my opinion,but I think that man was brillaint politician and public speaker,but a very lax military leader. He came up with some great ideas early on,but he was a gambler. It seemed(at least to me)that in 1939-41 Hitler and Germany ran a tight ship,so to speak. The war was pretty much going their way and was calculated. But once Russia was invaded,then the Fuhrer just threw caution to the wind and made critical decisions without much thought. It was as if he almost knew that he would lose the war,even as early as late 41'. So he just said,"Screw it. I'm going all out then. I'm risking everything."

 

[Hobgoblin]

Just from studying him for a few decades now,and this is just my opinion,but I think that man was brillaint politician and public speaker,but a very lax military leader. He came up with some great ideas early on,but he was a gambler. It seemed(at least to me)that in 1939-41 Hitler and Germany ran a tight ship,so to speak. The war was pretty much going their way and was calculated. But once Russia was invaded,then the Fuhrer just threw caution to the wind and made critical decisions without much thought. It was as if he almost knew that he would lose the war,even as early as late 41'. So he just said,"Screw it. I'm going all out then. I'm risking everything."

Which is a pretty reckless thing to do. Not very good politics.

I gotta hand it to Joseph Goebbels, though. His propaganda is still fooling people to this day into believing in Hitler's "genius."

 

[Thundercrack85]

Beginners luck is a curse. The easy victory over France made them cocky. It all went downhill after France.

But really, Hitler bit off more than he could chew. He was no Bismarck.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I really can't blame Hitler that much for attacking Russia. Obviously it ended up being the cause of his ultimate defeat, but I can't see Stalin just sitting back forever. War between Russian & Germany seemed inevitable. It was just a matter of who declared war on who and when. Hitler just did it when he thought it would be most favorable to him. The real problem was having to delay his invasion because Mussolini wasn't doing his job in the Balkans. I don't think Germany would have won anyways, but it was probably the best shot they had, especially if they had managed to convince Japan to help them out in the east.

Declaring war on the United States though was just idiotic.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Barbarossa itself was botched, but that's another issue.

 

[Dr. Evil]

There was a documentary on PBS a few months ago about Nazis who escaped capture right after the war, including many who fled to South America like Adolf Eichmann and Josef Mengele, who was never captured. And some of them who fled to South America may have played parts in shaping South American politics in the decades following the war. Klaus Barbie claimed he played a part in the eventual death of Che Guevara, but that wasn't ever proven I don't think, although mentioned in this article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/dec/23/world.secondworldwar

Paul Schäfer was a low ranking member of the Nazi Army during World War II but he later became known in Chile as a child predator and as founder of Colonia Dignidad, which was used by the Pinochet regime as a torture center.

There's also Alois Brunner and Aribert Heim, both of whom allegedly died in the 1990's, but there hasn't been any substantial proof of that. Last year, both of their names came up among the World's Most Wanted Fugitives after the death of Bin Laden and the capture of Ratko Mladic:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/worlds-wanted-left-list/story?id=13693016#.T5GZUqtYtrU

 

[Thundercrack85]

Yes, more than 10,000 Nazis escaped to South America, which already had a sizable minority of Germans. There was the old joke that Hitler had actually survived, and was living in Buenos Aires.

In a way it's somewhat reminiscent of the American Civil War. When the war ended 10-20,000 Confederates moved to Brazil (then the Empire of Brazil).

Hence the old saying, if you can't beat 'em, move to South America. And sell fried chicken and support totalitarian regimes.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Yes, more than 10,000 Nazis escaped to South America, which already had a sizable minority of Germans. There was the old joke that Hitler had actually survived, and was living in Buenos Aires.

In a way it's somewhat reminiscent of the American Civil War. When the war ended 10-20,000 Confederates moved to Brazil (then the Empire of Brazil).

Hence the old saying, if you can't beat 'em, move to South America. And sell fried chicken and support totalitarian regimes.

I am surprised that nobody who was involved in the Balkan Wars fled to South America.

 

[8wid]

Some of those Nazis would have made a better villain for Indiana Jones 4 than the Soviets did. A plot revolving around the resurrection of Hitler with the crystal skulls was more interesting than them being from aliens.