The Wrestling Thread is the Intellectual Savior of The Masses!

[Van Petrol]

I've said before that both companies are scared to book a strong heel because they become the cool heel and it's back to square one. As much crap as we all give Triple H, his heel work between 99 and 00 was everything a top heel should be IMO.

Oh gosh, yes do they need a guy like this again. I absolutley love his heel work from the 99-01 round about time. He used to literally almost rile me up to the point where I actually did start to hate him, and couldn't wait for the good guys to give him his comeuppance. He's definately been one of the best heels in the business of recent times, IMO.

 

[TX85]

Oh gosh, yes do they need a guy like this again. I absolutley love his heel work from the 99-01 round about time. He used to literally almost rile me up to the point where I actually did start to hate him, and couldn't wait for the good guys to give him his comeuppance. He's definately been one of the best heels in the business of recent times, IMO.

Agreed!

 

[Incrediblejeff]

Why does WWE feel most black characters need a hip hop theme? Like Johnny said why do PTP need to act so "stereotypically" black? Its already getting there. I can't buy that thats how Darren Young usually is. Even Otunga wasn't stereotyped so bad. Besides the music his gimmick could work with almost anyone of any race.

I have a problem with that as well.I don't think I can name a recent Black WWE superstar that didn't have a Hip Hop theme.I wanna see a black WWE Superstar with a rock theme(or maybe Techno/dubstep).

 

[Wheels]

When Shieky takes to twitter to put you over you know you are doing something right.

I call BS on this account. He didn't use the words motha ****er or sum*****.

 

[Van Petrol]

When Shieky takes to twitter to put you over you know you are doing something right.

Haha! I presume you could imagine how hard I was marking out for him last night when he grabbed the briefcase.

I would've preferred if he was going after the WWE title rather than the WHC though, as the latter seems to have become more akin to the IC title now in regards to ranking and prestige.

 

[Slushy]

Iron Shiek would be like "Fu** the John Laurinaitis! He is no good piece of sh** motherfu**er!"

t:

 

[TX85]

http://www.tout.com/m/apgqq6?ref=twrb0uad
Cena challenging Punk tonight!?

 

[Hunter Rider]

Oh gosh, yes do they need a guy like this again. I absolutley love his heel work from the 99-01 round about time. He used to literally almost rile me up to the point where I actually did start to hate him, and couldn't wait for the good guys to give him his comeuppance. He's definately been one of the best heels in the business of recent times, IMO.

Agreed, he was as good a heel as I've seen in that period of time, just immense in every way, good enough to be on top, lethal enough to be dangerous and a big enough bastard to want to see him lose.

I call BS on this account. He didn't use the words motha ****er or sum*****.

Haha! I presume you could imagine how hard I was marking out for him last night when he grabbed the briefcase.

I would've preferred if he was going after the WWE title rather than the WHC though, as the latter seems to have become more akin to the IC title now in regards to ranking and prestige.

Oh yeah. The bump he took when Tensai threw him over the announce table was insane!

Agreed, getting yet another shot at Sheamus and that belt just doesn't feel like forward motion for him. I just hope he gets to cut a promo tonight.

 

[NDX]

TNA probably did the best thing having Aries give up the title to get the world title shot, because I could not see the current crop of XD wrestlers beating him for that belt.

Darsow looks great, though.

 

[The Batman]

Sounds like something they'd do in the attitude era but it stands out in a not so good way even more today. Cryme Tyme was pretty stereotypically offensive but Prime Time Players look like clowns. Jesters. Theres a word for that when they used to have black people act like that decades ago but I can't think of it. Michael Hayes is probably amusing himself with all this.

If anything Kofi used to stand out to me because he was one of the few black guys who didn't have an urban/thug/rap gimmick


Washington talking during matches like that is ridiculous.

I'm not sure, but the word you're looking for is "minstrel"...and you're absolutely right.

As for Kofi, I liked him for the same reason. I'm disappointed that no Black Superstars are in the ME, but most dont deserve to be. Like you said, they're all thug/rap/urban gimmicks that aren't taken seriously at all. The last guy to go beyond that was Rock, and he's technically half black.

 

[Metallo]

The thing I found odd was him talking about the guys not looking tough, I mean Hogan, Bret, Piper, Flair, HBK, The Rock etc...None of these guys looked tough, and WWE can't magic up tough looking guys, they can only push and use who signs up and gets over.

Most of those guys weren't big monster tough guys but they came off as more credible in presentation. Their own in ring presentation and booking. The advantage of having more experience in some cases. Plus most of them were older and more experienced in life. Age being a key factor. Piper wasn't a big guy but he looked like he'd lived some. Had some life experience. Which he apparently did. Even when Bret wet solo he wasn't a 25 year old.

The other odd part was that bit about Bully Ray, Yes he is a classically hated heel but he loses every match and acts the coward too much to be seen as fearsome, he's more like a cartoon Bully that shrinks when someone steps up to him. Roode is a better example as a complete bastard because he gets away with his deeds, even if he isn't as ugly tough looking as Bully.

Most of Rays strong points are on the mic. He's great at saying stuff a**holish. More than just about anyone. I don't take him as a serious threat as a winner but he can say things that are hateful so well.

I've said before that both companies are scared to book a strong heel because they become the cool heel and it's back to square one. As much crap as we all give Triple H, his heel work between 99 and 00 was everything a top heel should be IMO.

If anyone should be pushing for the change for stronger heels its him. Isn't he the one that said WWE was missing a destroyer right now? I mean a REAL legit looking destroyer. Not some carbon copy like Ryback.

Oh yeah Hogan certainly snaked his way around many guys in keeping his star shinning brightest, the Savage example being the best one, he was determined only to let Savage get so far, Macho talked about that in a shoot, saying that "Any time any of us did something that was getting over you could be sure Hogan would be near by ready to leech off it" lol.

Oddly enough Hogan was amongst the first WWE title matches on a PPV that didn't go last at KOTR 93. I just haven't seen anything as blatant as what is going on with Cena because it's back to back months.

With Cena its more a case of overexposure. Thats because there is more tv, more PPV, etc. If Hogan was around now and in his prime he'd be doing the same things he did then only it would be every month. And people might get more sick of him than they are with Cena.

Hogan may not have gone on last at KOTR 93 but that was one of the screwiest finishes I've EVER seen...especially for a guy on the way out. Even if Yoko had to cheat something that outlandish was too much. I think they protected Hogan a little too hard considering he was on the way out of the company.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Silvervision.co.uk has released the complete content listing for WWE's upcoming "CM Punk: Best in the World" DVD and Blu-ray set. The title is scheduled for release on October 9, 2012.

Spoiler

Disc 1

A New Day

Spaceboy

Backyard Fame

Taking to the Road

Launching Pad

Constantly Learning

Dark Cloud

Not the Prototype

Outcast Champion

Having Fun

A Challenge

Saving Society

Frustrated Beyond Belief

Hometown High-Pressured Situation

The MAN

Special Features

High School Sports

CM Punk – the Name

Skull Fracture

OVW vs. Albright

From Extra to Champion

December to Dismember

1st Impressions
In-Ring Style

It’s Clobbering Time

The Hat

“The Most Insulting Thing You Could Say To Me”

A Conversation with Lars

Title in the Fridge

Natalie’s T-Shirt

“Teenage Anarchist”

Disc 2

Finals Match in the OVW World Heavyweight Championship Tournament
Brent Albright vs. CM Punk
Ohio Valley Wrestling 1st March, 2006

CM Punk vs. Justin Credible
ECW 1st August, 2006

ECW Championship Last Chance Match
CM Punk vs. John Morrison
ECW 4th September, 2007

Money in the Bank Ladder Match
Chris Jericho vs. Shelton Benjamin vs. John Morrison vs. Carlito vs. CM Punk vs. MVP vs. Mr. Kennedy
WrestleMania XXIV 30th March, 2008

World Tag Team Championship Match
CM Punk & Kofi Kingston vs. Cody Rhodes & Ted DiBiase
RAW 27th October, 2008

No Disqualification Match for the Intercontinental Championship
CM Punk vs. William Regal
RAW 19th January, 2009

Disc 3

Tables, Ladders, and Chairs Match for the World Heavyweight Championship
Jeff Hardy vs. CM Punk
SummerSlam 23rd August, 2009

Rey Mysterio Joins the SES vs. CM Punk’s Hair
Rey Mysterio vs. CM Punk
Over the Limit 23rd May, 2010

WWE Championship Match
John Cena vs. CM Punk
Money in the Bank 17th July, 2011

WWE Championship Match
CM Punk vs. Chris Jericho
WrestleMania XXVIII 1st April, 2012

WWE Championship Match
CM Punk vs. Daniel Bryan
Over the Limit 20th May, 2012

Blu-ray Exclusive Content

No Plan B

Saxophone

Easter Greeting

Chicken Wings and Apple Pie

Most Recognizable Tattoo

Fish Tattoo

Traveling with Ace

No Microphone

ECW Arena Match

Hanging with Eddie Guerrero

Trainer

Driving Away With the Title

Wrestling Camp

“They’re Gonna Hate Me”

Six People, One Room

I’m a Paul Heyman Guy

The Marathon

@CMPunk

The Bus Tour

Kofi’s Challenge

WrestleMania Day

A Day at the Ball Field

True Respect

Finals Match in the Intercontinental Championship Tournament
Rey Mysterio vs. CM Punk
Armageddon 14th December, 2008

 

[NDX]

...and Truth is a mentally unstable illiterate man.

I don't even know if that's PG!

Also, caught the ending to RAW's MitB. The **** was that?

 

[Hunter Rider]

http://www.tout.com/m/apgqq6?ref=twrb0uad
Cena challenging Punk tonight!?

I think he'll set up the match for Summerslam tonight.

Most of those guys weren't big monster tough guys but they came off as more credible in presentation. Their own in ring presentation and booking. The advantage of having more experience in some cases. Plus most of them were older and more experienced in life. Age being a key factor. Piper wasn't a big guy but he looked like he'd lived some. Had some life experience. Which he apparently did. Even when Bret wet solo he wasn't a 25 year old.

The business hs changed in that way for sure, it all really started with The Rock, he was the first of the guys who'd really not paid those hard dues before being made a WWE champion at 27, the exposure of TV leading to guys being built up faster I guess. HBK - 30, Rock - 27, Lesnar - 25, Orton - 24. I think Hogan and Bret were both 35 before they won the WWE title.

Most of Rays strong points are on the mic. He's great at saying stuff a**holish. More than just about anyone. I don't take him as a serious threat as a winner but he can say things that are hateful so well.

The thing is Ray could certainly be more than they allow him to be, the way he jobs out all the time seems to unterutilize a top heel IMO.

If anyone should be pushing for the change for stronger heels its him. Isn't he the one that said WWE was missing a destroyer right now? I mean a REAL legit looking destroyer. Not some carbon copy like Ryback.

He may well be but he is dealing with Vince who is stubborn and a bit mentally unstable, it will take time for him to get through all the things he wants to have change.

With Cena its more a case of overexposure. Thats because there is more tv, more PPV, etc. If Hogan was around now and in his prime he'd be doing the same things he did then only it would be every month. And people might get more sick of him than they are with Cena.

That's the curse of two shows a week and a PPV a month.

Hogan may not have gone on last at KOTR 93 but that was one of the screwiest finishes I've EVER seen...especially for a guy on the way out. Even if Yoko had to cheat something that outlandish was too much. I think they protected Hogan a little too hard considering he was on the way out of the company.

It was so weird, I mean he was supposed to lose the belt to Bret but wouldn't, then he manages to get that screwy finish booked, I don't know how he does it lol. What was even stranger was they never revealed who the guy with the flame camera was, yet they made such a big deal of it, they could have used it to springboard someone.

 

[Van Petrol]

Agreed, he was as good a heel as I've seen in that period of time, just immense in every way, good enough to be on top, lethal enough to be dangerous and a big enough bastard to want to see him lose.

Oh yeah. The bump he took when Tensai threw him over the announce table was insane!

Agreed, getting yet another shot at Sheamus and that belt just doesn't feel like forward motion for him. I just hope he gets to cut a promo tonight.

Oh yeah, lol, I know. It's amazing he doesn't injure himself doing these crazy bumps. He evens full on bumps on steel surfaces (i.e. the entrance ramp/stage).

Agreed. Yeah, I like that they've kept Vickie by his side, and hopefully it will last up until he gets the prize as it would be a satisfying sense of achievement and reward for both of them, IMO. Like has been said previously, I think Dolph also values the work she has done and put in to help him get over.

 

[TX85]

Silvervision.co.uk has released the complete content listing for WWE's upcoming "CM Punk: Best in the World" DVD and Blu-ray set. The title is scheduled for release on October 9, 2012.

Spoiler

Disc 1

A New Day

Spaceboy

Backyard Fame

Taking to the Road

Launching Pad

Constantly Learning

Dark Cloud

Not the Prototype

Outcast Champion

Having Fun

A Challenge

Saving Society

Frustrated Beyond Belief

Hometown High-Pressured Situation

The MAN

Special Features

High School Sports

CM Punk – the Name

Skull Fracture

OVW vs. Albright

From Extra to Champion

December to Dismember

1st Impressions
In-Ring Style

It’s Clobbering Time

The Hat

“The Most Insulting Thing You Could Say To Me”

A Conversation with Lars

Title in the Fridge

Natalie’s T-Shirt

“Teenage Anarchist”

Disc 2

Finals Match in the OVW World Heavyweight Championship Tournament
Brent Albright vs. CM Punk
Ohio Valley Wrestling 1st March, 2006

CM Punk vs. Justin Credible
ECW 1st August, 2006

ECW Championship Last Chance Match
CM Punk vs. John Morrison
ECW 4th September, 2007

Money in the Bank Ladder Match
Chris Jericho vs. Shelton Benjamin vs. John Morrison vs. Carlito vs. CM Punk vs. MVP vs. Mr. Kennedy
WrestleMania XXIV 30th March, 2008

World Tag Team Championship Match
CM Punk & Kofi Kingston vs. Cody Rhodes & Ted DiBiase
RAW 27th October, 2008

No Disqualification Match for the Intercontinental Championship
CM Punk vs. William Regal
RAW 19th January, 2009

Disc 3

Tables, Ladders, and Chairs Match for the World Heavyweight Championship
Jeff Hardy vs. CM Punk
SummerSlam 23rd August, 2009

Rey Mysterio Joins the SES vs. CM Punk’s Hair
Rey Mysterio vs. CM Punk
Over the Limit 23rd May, 2010

WWE Championship Match
John Cena vs. CM Punk
Money in the Bank 17th July, 2011

WWE Championship Match
CM Punk vs. Chris Jericho
WrestleMania XXVIII 1st April, 2012

WWE Championship Match
CM Punk vs. Daniel Bryan
Over the Limit 20th May, 2012

Blu-ray Exclusive Content

No Plan B

Saxophone

Easter Greeting

Chicken Wings and Apple Pie

Most Recognizable Tattoo

Fish Tattoo

Traveling with Ace

No Microphone

ECW Arena Match

Hanging with Eddie Guerrero

Trainer

Driving Away With the Title

Wrestling Camp

“They’re Gonna Hate Me”

Six People, One Room

I’m a Paul Heyman Guy

The Marathon

@CMPunk

The Bus Tour

Kofi’s Challenge

WrestleMania Day

A Day at the Ball Field

True Respect

Finals Match in the Intercontinental Championship Tournament
Rey Mysterio vs. CM Punk
Armageddon 14th December, 2008

Awesome,That's a lot of exclusive interview segments and a great bonus match for the blu-ray version..Might be the first WWE blu-ray I get!!

 

[Anno_Domini]

http://www.tout.com/m/apgqq6?ref=twrb0uad
Cena challenging Punk tonight!?

So he's going to challenge Punk to a match instead of surprising him and cashing in his contract? What's the point of him winning MITB when it's JOHN CENA. He could just show up on any Raw and challenge Punk to a title match.

 

[Van Petrol]

So he's going to challenge Punk to a match instead of surprising him and cashing in his contract? What's the point of him winning MITB when it's JOHN CENA. He could just show up on any Raw and challenge Punk to a title match.

I couldn't see it panning out any other way, personally (i.e. challenging to a match rather than a surprise cah in). The latter would put him the opportunistic/unfair crowd, but the former will make him look like the bigger man, and the E aren't going to book him any other way.

 

[NDX]

Silvervision.co.uk has released the complete content listing for WWE's upcoming "CM Punk: Best in the World" DVD and Blu-ray set. The title is scheduled for release on October 9, 2012.

Spoiler

Disc 1

A New Day

Spaceboy

Backyard Fame

Taking to the Road

Launching Pad

Constantly Learning

Dark Cloud

Not the Prototype

Outcast Champion

Having Fun

A Challenge

Saving Society

Frustrated Beyond Belief

Hometown High-Pressured Situation

The MAN

Special Features

High School Sports

CM Punk – the Name

Skull Fracture

OVW vs. Albright

From Extra to Champion

December to Dismember

1st Impressions
In-Ring Style

It’s Clobbering Time

The Hat

“The Most Insulting Thing You Could Say To Me”

A Conversation with Lars

Title in the Fridge

Natalie’s T-Shirt

“Teenage Anarchist”

Disc 2

Finals Match in the OVW World Heavyweight Championship Tournament
Brent Albright vs. CM Punk
Ohio Valley Wrestling 1st March, 2006

CM Punk vs. Justin Credible
ECW 1st August, 2006

ECW Championship Last Chance Match
CM Punk vs. John Morrison
ECW 4th September, 2007

Money in the Bank Ladder Match
Chris Jericho vs. Shelton Benjamin vs. John Morrison vs. Carlito vs. CM Punk vs. MVP vs. Mr. Kennedy
WrestleMania XXIV 30th March, 2008

World Tag Team Championship Match
CM Punk & Kofi Kingston vs. Cody Rhodes & Ted DiBiase
RAW 27th October, 2008

No Disqualification Match for the Intercontinental Championship
CM Punk vs. William Regal
RAW 19th January, 2009

Disc 3

Tables, Ladders, and Chairs Match for the World Heavyweight Championship
Jeff Hardy vs. CM Punk
SummerSlam 23rd August, 2009

Rey Mysterio Joins the SES vs. CM Punk’s Hair
Rey Mysterio vs. CM Punk
Over the Limit 23rd May, 2010

WWE Championship Match
John Cena vs. CM Punk
Money in the Bank 17th July, 2011

WWE Championship Match
CM Punk vs. Chris Jericho
WrestleMania XXVIII 1st April, 2012

WWE Championship Match
CM Punk vs. Daniel Bryan
Over the Limit 20th May, 2012

Blu-ray Exclusive Content

No Plan B

Saxophone

Easter Greeting

Chicken Wings and Apple Pie

Most Recognizable Tattoo

Fish Tattoo

Traveling with Ace

No Microphone

ECW Arena Match

Hanging with Eddie Guerrero

Trainer

Driving Away With the Title

Wrestling Camp

“They’re Gonna Hate Me”

Six People, One Room

I’m a Paul Heyman Guy

The Marathon

@CMPunk

The Bus Tour

Kofi’s Challenge

WrestleMania Day

A Day at the Ball Field

True Respect

Finals Match in the Intercontinental Championship Tournament
Rey Mysterio vs. CM Punk
Armageddon 14th December, 2008

Looks good, but feels like it needs more matches.

And did Brent Albright actually wrestle as Brent Albright in OVW? I don't recall that, I just recall the unfortunate run as Gunner Scott.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Maria Not a Ryback Fan

During last night's WWE Money in the Bank PPV, former WWE Diva and current ROH talent Maria Kanellis posted the following on Twitter:

"Why is Ryback Batista?"

"Why is Ryback Goldberg?"

"Why is Ryback Brock?"

"Why is Ryback on my TV?"

Backstage Reaction to Miz's Return

According to F4WOnline.com, everyone backstage was pleased to see The Miz make his return to WWE at last night's Money in the Bank PPV. The feeling is that The Miz has improved his look while he was off TV shooting the Marine 3, and that he will be pushed as a top heel in the fall.

Oh yeah, lol, I know. It's amazing he doesn't injure himself doing these crazy bumps. He evens full on bumps on steel surfaces (i.e. the entrance ramp/stage).

JBL said on his tweet congratulating Dolph "He's a crazy bumping fool!"

]Agreed. Yeah, I like that they've kept Vickie by his side, and hopefully it will last up until he gets the prize as it would be a satisfying sense of achievement and reward for both of them, IMO. Like has been said previously, I think Dolph also values the work she has done and put in to help him get over.

Me too, I think she's earned it, but part of me thinks the crowd are turning him face, it's getting more apparent, and if WWE feel they need to go that way I think Vickie will step aside, as from her interviews she seems to care about Dolph's career for real. Maybe she could become the manager of a heel to go after Dolph when he ditches her.

Looks good, but feels like it needs more matches.

And did Brent Albright actually wrestle as Brent Albright in OVW? I don't recall that, I just recall the unfortunate run as Gunner Scott.

I was thinking the same, I mean his match with DFel Rio where he won the title in MSG should be on, as should his first match with Dolph on Raw this year IMO.

Yeah he wrestled there as Albright.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Tessmacher Criticizes Divas Division

Brooke Adams, known in TNA as Miss Tessmacher, posted the following on Facebook concerning a possible return to WWE, where she worked back in 2007:
"Why would I want to go back to wwe where they have 3 min matches that typically have no meaning. The women aren't utilized to the potential they bring. They aren't cared about or a priority."

 

[Hunter Rider]

VIDEO: JBL Reviews WWE's 2012 Money in the Bank PPV

 

[Dr. Evil]

Yes because all southern people are racist, right?

No but he probably is. Didn't his group have a guy with the Confederate Flag on his Trunks?

 

[TX85]

Anybody know IF WWEShop ships new items by release day or do they usually take days/a week to get there??

 

[MMMMM...Pancakes]

Silvervision.co.uk has released the complete content listing for WWE's upcoming "CM Punk: Best in the World" DVD and Blu-ray set. The title is scheduled for release on October 9, 2012.

Spoiler

Disc 1

A New Day

Spaceboy

Backyard Fame

Taking to the Road

Launching Pad

Constantly Learning

Dark Cloud

Not the Prototype

Outcast Champion

Having Fun

A Challenge

Saving Society

Frustrated Beyond Belief

Hometown High-Pressured Situation

The MAN

Special Features

High School Sports

CM Punk – the Name

Skull Fracture

OVW vs. Albright

From Extra to Champion

December to Dismember

1st Impressions
In-Ring Style

It’s Clobbering Time

The Hat

“The Most Insulting Thing You Could Say To Me”

A Conversation with Lars

Title in the Fridge

Natalie’s T-Shirt

“Teenage Anarchist”

Disc 2

Finals Match in the OVW World Heavyweight Championship Tournament
Brent Albright vs. CM Punk
Ohio Valley Wrestling 1st March, 2006

CM Punk vs. Justin Credible
ECW 1st August, 2006

ECW Championship Last Chance Match
CM Punk vs. John Morrison
ECW 4th September, 2007

Money in the Bank Ladder Match
Chris Jericho vs. Shelton Benjamin vs. John Morrison vs. Carlito vs. CM Punk vs. MVP vs. Mr. Kennedy
WrestleMania XXIV 30th March, 2008

World Tag Team Championship Match
CM Punk & Kofi Kingston vs. Cody Rhodes & Ted DiBiase
RAW 27th October, 2008

No Disqualification Match for the Intercontinental Championship
CM Punk vs. William Regal
RAW 19th January, 2009

Disc 3

Tables, Ladders, and Chairs Match for the World Heavyweight Championship
Jeff Hardy vs. CM Punk
SummerSlam 23rd August, 2009

Rey Mysterio Joins the SES vs. CM Punk’s Hair
Rey Mysterio vs. CM Punk
Over the Limit 23rd May, 2010

WWE Championship Match
John Cena vs. CM Punk
Money in the Bank 17th July, 2011

WWE Championship Match
CM Punk vs. Chris Jericho
WrestleMania XXVIII 1st April, 2012

WWE Championship Match
CM Punk vs. Daniel Bryan
Over the Limit 20th May, 2012

Blu-ray Exclusive Content

No Plan B

Saxophone

Easter Greeting

Chicken Wings and Apple Pie

Most Recognizable Tattoo

Fish Tattoo

Traveling with Ace

No Microphone

ECW Arena Match

Hanging with Eddie Guerrero

Trainer

Driving Away With the Title

Wrestling Camp

“They’re Gonna Hate Me”

Six People, One Room

I’m a Paul Heyman Guy

The Marathon

@CMPunk

The Bus Tour

Kofi’s Challenge

WrestleMania Day

A Day at the Ball Field

True Respect

Finals Match in the Intercontinental Championship Tournament
Rey Mysterio vs. CM Punk
Armageddon 14th December, 2008

The set looks great, I wish it had the cage match between him and Hardy from Smackdown! in 09, really liked that match.