The Wrestling Thread Says, "Wait Just A Second There, Playa!"

[Hunter Rider]

Ugh...I just couldn't stand the run-in/lead up and then the main event to WMX8. It just became the Trips and Stephanie show.

The only good thing to come from that whole debacle was the blue outfit Steph poured into for Mania.

Yeah, there is a lot more to is than it was then. Could prove to be an epic tale behind all of it (even though I couldn't give a **** about Rocky right now). But if Brock never returns, I won't shed any tears.

I quite liked the simple athletic build up to Rock vs Brock at Summerslam 2002, if Brock came back for one match Austin seems like the most natural opponent story-wise.

I still get a little angry watching Brock matches because he was the next huge star in my opinion.

Yeah he was amazing and was going to live up to his "Next Big Thing" tag.

 

[The Sage]

Lucky man. That is the greatest non WrestleMania PPV in WWE history.

Summerslam 2002 was definitely something else. Not single match on there did I skip. Start to finish. Angle/Mysterio was a great opener. Jericho/Flair was okay. Booker/Goldust vs UnAmericans was fun. Benoit/RVD was a clinic. Taker/Test was solid. HBK/HHH was a special match for me as it was the first time I had seen HBK wrestle live. I had seen his previous matches on DVDs and all, but it wasn't the same. I was shocked at how good he still was after four years away.

Rock/Brock was an interesting match. The crowd's reactions, turning on Rock and cheering Brock, was so weird.

Another good thing about this PPV? Michael Cole's commentary wasn't terrible.

 

[Metallo]

By saying blood McMahon, I'm sure that means you think Triple H understands the business more than his in-laws?

I think he does. He seems have good ideas. There was a report last year that he wants to give more focus to tag team wrestling. I'm not sure why it's not happening, if it's his doing or Vince's. But since apparently Triple H is becoming the de-facto Vince, I hope it will.

I do. Triple H knows this business well. He's old school and yet he's young enough to have his finger closer to the pulse than his father in law. Unlike his wife or Vince he's actually worked in it and seen it from every level. He knows how to get over and how important presentation is.

If Triple H could just retire and put his biases aside once he's running things he could make the WWE greater than its been in a long time.

When you look at Jericho's first title run sabotage is too light a word, basically every match was the result of multiple run-ins, not one guy put him over clean and by Mania he was Steph's dog walker and the feud wasn't even between him and Triple H.

The feud with HBK came 6 years later and Jericho no longer could be what he might have been with the right booking, but he got over as an equal to HBK, only to subsequently jobbed out numerous times to Batista and Cena which killed the momentum his feud with HBK had created.

Jericho was really just Stephanie's lackey in all that. Then years later they made Jericho look like a fool at Stephanie's expense again when he got fired and begged for his job back.

The only reason they built Jericho up after feuding with Michaels the second time was to be fed to the top guys when they could have done more with it. They tend to do that with a LOT of heels now. The same thing happened to Booker T in 07. The same thing happened to Punk a few years back after the great feud with Hardy; another guy Triple H tried to suck the face heat out of to stay relevant.

I...really have no interest in seeing that. We saw it once and it was pretty good but I can easily think of a half dozen better uses for Lesnar if he were to come back. Austin never wrestled him. He'd be a shocking contender to try to break the Undertakers streak. He and HHH never really mixed it up one on one. Most importantly another Lesnar vs Cena match now that Cena has been elevated could be fun. Hell I'd even bring Batista back to face Lesnar before I'd care to see him wrestle Rock. Whoever thought this one up has no imagination.

I could even see Brock brought in as the ultimate hired gun to knock Punk off the top spot as champion one day. Even though his MMA career ended on a down note he's still gained a legitimacy that pretty much no one in the business has. There's a better LONG term use for that than seeing him feud with The Rock.

If Rock wants to work at Mania again next year he should work with one of the guys thats full time with the company. TWO part timers taking a main event spot? WWE wants to choke to death on its own short sightedness if they do this.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Yeah Hunter, Hero's debut match was awful, but I enjoyed the 15 championship match between Claudio and Richie Steamboat.

They didn't even try to salvage his debut a bit by having him use the roaring elbow as his finish, the crowd looked baffled when he got the pin off a forearm. That was a good match, unlike his dad I could see Richie as a heel, and although I think the gimmick Claudio has belongs in the 80's, his unique style could get over.

 

[Dr. Evil]

With his health issue, I doubt Brock Lesnar returns to WWE.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Summerslam 2002 was definitely something else. Not single match on there did I skip. Start to finish. Angle/Mysterio was a great opener. Jericho/Flair was okay. Booker/Goldust vs UnAmericans was fun. Benoit/RVD was a clinic. Taker/Test was solid. HBK/HHH was a special match for me as it was the first time I had seen HBK wrestle live. I had seen his previous matches on DVDs and all, but it wasn't the same. I was shocked at how good he still was after four years away.

Rock/Brock was an interesting match. The crowd's reactions, turning on Rock and cheering Brock, was so weird.

Another good thing about this PPV? Michael Cole's commentary wasn't terrible.

You were at the actual event Sage? I think that IC title match was the best of RVD's career.

Jericho was really just Stephanie's lackey in all that. Then years later they made Jericho look like a fool at Stephanie's expense again when he got fired and begged for his job back.

The only reason they built Jericho up after feuding with Michaels the second time was to be fed to the top guys when they could have done more with it. They tend to do that with a LOT of heels now. The same thing happened to Booker T in 07. The same thing happened to Punk a few years back after the great feud with Hardy; another guy Triple H tried to suck the face heat out of to stay relevant.

That felt like it was done just to give Haitch and the Macs a giggle as it went nowhere.

It's certainly a recurring theme and goes back to why guys need cementing as top guys with wins, and why WWE has struggled to make new stars since Cena. I just hope Bryan is not the next victim of this cycle.

I...really have no interest in seeing that. We saw it once and it was pretty good but I can easily think of a half dozen better uses for Lesnar if he were to come back. Austin never wrestled him. He'd be a shocking contender to break the Undertakers streak. He and HHH never really mixed it up one on one. Most importantly another Lesnar vs Cena match now that Cena has been elevated could be fun. Hell I'd even bring Batista back to face Lesnar before I'd care to see him wrestle Rock. Whoever thought this one up has no imagination.

I could even see Brock brought in as the ultimate hired gun to knock Punk off the top spot as champion one day. Even though his MMA career ended on a down note he's still gained a legitimacy that pretty much no one in the business has. There's a better LONG term use for that than seeing him feud with The Rock.

If Rock wants to work at Mania again next year he should work with one of the guys thats full time with the company. TWO part timers taking a main event spot? WWE wants to choke to death on its own short sightedness if they do this.

I agree with this, there is a built in angle with Brock and Austin, and everyone knows Punk's love of MMA as it's been well documented, so either would make more sense.

I do get the feeling there is a little clique of guys from the past eyeing Mania paydays in working each other or Cena though, which is not good for the business.

 

[Hunter Rider]

 

[Incrediblejeff]

I love Summerslam 2002.I remember buying that DVD used.Best 7 bucks I ever spent.

HHH vs Lesnar should of happened years ago.SMH.I always wanted that match.It just seems too late now.

 

[The Sage]

I do. Triple H knows this business well. He's old school and yet he's young enough to have his finger closer to the pulse than his father in law. Unlike his wife or Vince he's actually worked in it and seen it from every level. He knows how to get over and how important presentation is.

If Triple H could just retire and put his biases aside once he's running things he could make the WWE greater than its been in a long time.

Totally agree. He's more valuable behind the curtain than in front of it nowadays.

Jericho was really just Stephanie's lackey in all that. Then years later they made Jericho look like a fool at Stephanie's expense again when he got fired and begged for his job back.

The only reason they built Jericho up after feuding with Michaels the second time was to be fed to the top guys when they could have done more with it. They tend to do that with a LOT of heels now. The same thing happened to Booker T in 07. The same thing happened to Punk a few years back after the great feud with Hardy; another guy Triple H tried to suck the face heat out of to stay relevant.

Sadly, Taker was the one who sucked the heat out of Punk. I actually had high expectations for their feud and they fell short. I guess in hindsight it worked out better for Punk since he's a bigger deal now than he was then.

Jericho talks about how poorly his first title reign was booked in Undisputed. I'm surprised he said as much as he did. I wonder what Vince, Steph, and HHH thought about his opinion. They probably didn't care. Almost a decade ago.

I...really have no interest in seeing that. We saw it once and it was pretty good but I can easily think of a half dozen better uses for Lesnar if he were to come back. Austin never wrestled him. He'd be a shocking contender to try to break the Undertakers streak. He and HHH never really mixed it up one on one. Most importantly another Lesnar vs Cena match now that Cena has been elevated could be fun. Hell I'd even bring Batista back to face Lesnar before I'd care to see him wrestle Rock. Whoever thought this one up has no imagination.

I could even see Brock brought in as the ultimate hired gun to knock Punk off the top spot as champion one day. Even though his MMA career ended on a down note he's still gained a legitimacy that pretty much no one in the business has. There's a better LONG term use for that than seeing him feud with The Rock.

If Rock wants to work at Mania again next year he should work with one of the guys thats full time with the company. TWO part timers taking a main event spot? WWE wants to choke to death on its own short sightedness if they do this.

They really haven't had an old lion/young lion scenario since 2007 when Cena faced HBK.

Maybe by next year, Dolph Ziggler will be elevated and he can face the Rock.

 

[The Sage]

You were at the actual event Sage? I think that IC title match was the best of RVD's career.

My mistake. I meant I watched the PPV while it was going on. I rarely bought them, especially at that time.

 

[Hunter Rider]

 

[Hunter Rider]

HHH vs Lesnar should of happened years ago.SMH.I always wanted that match.It just seems too late now.

I'm pretty sure it was planned as the main event of WrestleMania 21 had Lesnar not left.

My mistake. I meant I watched the PPV while it was going on. I rarely bought them, especially at that time.

Ah I see, it was a great show, rarely do you get such a good top to bottom card as that.

 

[Incrediblejeff]

I'm pretty sure it was planned as the main event of WrestleMania 21 had Lesnar not left.

 

[Slushy]

CM Punk doesn't need it. Punk is already over. Beating Triple H or not is not going to change that.

I disagree. A clean win over HHH would do wonders for Punk like it did for Cena.

So the rest of the guys can bust their ass to carry the company for the next 10 months and then two guys that aren't even part timers step into the spotlight and payday for Mania? No thanks.

Mania is Vince's baby and he would be insane not to book the most anticipated rematch in WWE history.

 

[Wheels]

WrestleMania 17 and SummerSlam 2002 are my favorite WWE shows ever.

 

[The Sage]

I had read that the Eddie Guerrero/Triple H match that occurred one of the RAWs post Wrestlemania 20 was a test for a potential match between them at Wrestlemania 21. Not sure how true that was, but clearly a lot of things happened in that span of time that kept it from happening.

WrestleMania 17 and SummerSlam 2002 are my favorite WWE shows ever.

Yes!

 

[Metallo]

It's certainly a recurring theme and goes back to why guys need cementing as top guys with wins, and why WWE has struggled to make new stars since Cena. I just hope Bryan is not the next victim of this cycle.

Triple H has become a face heat vampire. I was listening to a short wrestling radio clip on youtube and they talk about how HHH loves working with the new top hottest star in the company. Its true. He's done it to Hardy, Orton, and Punk and NONE of them benefitted from working with him. Only HHH did. Enough, WWE.

I agree with this, there is a built in angle with Brock and Austin, and everyone knows Punk's love of MMA as it's been well documented, so either would make more sense.

They could build up the real life issues leading to Austin walking out. Brock could claim Austin was scared of him. The match that never happened and has been a decade in the making. That makes much more sense to me at Mania than Rock vs Lesnar even though its yet another Mania depending on the past to draw.

I do get the feeling there is a little clique of guys from the past eyeing Mania paydays in working each other or Cena though, which is not good for the business.

Vince is letting his desperation for big buyrates and quick fix solutions cloud his judgment (more than usual). if they keep on doing this they'll be left with a roster of full time guys who won't be able to draw as well because they haven't been eased into the Mania main events.

Sadly, Taker was the one who sucked the heat out of Punk. I actually had high expectations for their feud and they fell short. I guess in hindsight it worked out better for Punk since he's a bigger deal now than he was then.

I was really disappointed with how that turned out. Could have been great but between Punk being booked weakly and the lame Montreal Screwjob rehash I wasn't impressed. Taker vs Edge was a much better program and Taker should have tried to make the program with Punk as good.

 

[Metallo]

Mania is Vince's baby and he would be insane not to book the most anticipated rematch in WWE history.

I agree with you that Vince would probably want bring in Lesnar to try and break the Streak.

I had read that the Eddie Guerrero/Triple H match that occurred one of the RAWs post Wrestlemania 20 was a test for a potential match between them at Wrestlemania 21. Not sure how true that was, but clearly a lot of things happened in that span of time that kept it from happening.

Oh how I wish we would have gotten Guerrero vs Michaels. Most people don't believe in magic but that could have been proof.

 

[venom892]

Guerrero vs. HBK would have been one for the ages. They are in my top 5 so personally for me it would have been amazing. Brock/Rock II benefits no one and honestly Who would lead the match? Both would obviously have ring rust. If both are going to be on the card that's great but have them working with current to talent. CM Punk vs. one of them would be nice but I feel Punk would shred them both on the mic and I wonder how each one would react to it.

 

[NDX]

I quite liked the simple athletic build up to Rock vs Brock at Summerslam 2002, if Brock came back for one match Austin seems like the most natural opponent story-wise.

This, and the HBK/HHH match were the selling points for me to buy SummerSlam 2002. Last PPV I bought before that was SummerSlam 1998.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I disagree. A clean win over HHH would do wonders for Punk like it did for Cena.



Mania is Vince's baby and he would be insane not to book the most anticipated rematch in WWE history.

Would it help?

It certainly wouldn't hurt.

Is it needed?

No, CM Punk is doing a good enough job of making himself the face of the company on his own.

All I know is that reading through this thread, I am so glad I don't watch wrestling the same way so many people here do. I don't know how you guys can enjoy it when you're constantly nitpicking every detail.

I don't go into a movie and nitpick over every little detail, or backstage production issues, or "the villain was defeated in the wrong way, the movie sucks", I don't understand why people would treat wrestling any differently.

 

[Slushy]

Re: Guerrero Vs. Michaels

It would've easily been a 5 star match and one of the greatest matches in Wrestlemania history, but I think the finish will always be the most interesting factor of this dream match between 2 former world champions. Would HBK have won with Sweet Chin Music in typical fashion or would've Latino Heat cheated to win?

Would it help?

It certainly wouldn't hurt.

Is it needed?

No, CM Punk is doing a good enough job of making himself the face of the company on his own.

All I know is that reading through this thread, I am so glad I don't watch wrestling the same way so many people here do. I don't know how you guys can enjoy it when you're constantly nitpicking every detail.

I don't go into a movie and nitpick over every little detail, or backstage production issues, or "the villain was defeated in the wrong way, the movie sucks", I don't understand why people would treat wrestling any differently.

Because it does matter. That's the magic of storytelling and putting over. Bret Hart had to struggle for years to try to establish himself as the top guy because Hulk Hogan flat out refused to job to him, Ultimate Warrior wasn't around to work with, and Vince wouldn't let Randy Savage compete. Had Bret Hart got a clean win over any of those guys in a main event PPV, he would've easily been a bigger star instead of going through all the painstake of getting credibility.

Also in case in point, The Miz defeated John Cena in the main event of Wrestlemania. It was Cena's first singles loss. It should've been a huge deal, but because The Rock interfered, it stole Miz's thunder. Had Miz beaten Cena on his own, he'd be a bigger star and still in high profile matches instead of being lost in transition.

 

[brainchild81]

Shane has a mind for business and creative. Shane's also by far the best overall performer

I'd watch a Shane match over his brother in law's any day of the week. Shane's SSP was picture perfect & he could take a crazy bump when he needed to.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Because it does matter. That's the magic of storytelling and putting over. Bret Hart had to struggle for years to try to establish himself as the top guy because Hulk Hogan flat out refused to job to him, Ultimate Warrior wasn't around to work with, and Vince wouldn't let Randy Savage compete. Had Bret Hart got a clean win over any of those guys in a main event PPV, he would've easily been a bigger star instead of going through all the painstake of getting credibility.

Also in case in point, The Miz defeated John Cena in the main event of Wrestlemania. It was Cena's first singles loss. It should've been a huge deal, but because The Rock interfered, it stole Miz's thunder. Had Miz beaten Cena on his own, he'd be a bigger star and still in high profile matches instead of being lost in transition.

I doubt it. Miz is lost in transition because he lost his drive and work ethic backstage, not because The Rock got involved in Miz' match.

At what point does storyline trump "putting over"? At some point, you have to put on an enjoyable show, with stories that people want to tune in to see. Yes, that means bringing The Rock in, and giving a retired wrestler a main event spot at Wrestlemania. Why? Because it's a better story. The Rock v. Brock Lesnar, which was talked about earlier, would be a fun story with characters that people want to see.

Saying that CM Punk needs to beat Triple H is something that I simply put don't buy. CM Punk is all but the face of the company now - at worst, he's the #2 guy in the entire company at the moment, and the only reason he's really even that low is because a LEGEND in The Rock is coming in for a much more special storyline. Once The Rock is gone, and this story with John Cena fizzles out, CM Punk is going to jump right back to being the face of the company, just like he was before Rocky came back a month ago, and John Cena was busy feuding with Kane and making out with Eve.

Saying CM Punk needs to beat Triple H cuz John Cena and Batista did it is like saying The Flash needs to beat The Joker because Batman did it.

No, The Flash has his own villains to feud with and defeat, he doesn't need to beat the same villains that the other super heroes beat. Punk beat Cena - that's his guy to beat. And he beat Cena after he proved that he was worthy of being in the main event, and proved that he was worthy of beating the top guy. He didn't beat Cena to get over, he got over and then beat Cena because he had earned that victory.

It's the same reason why, even though I prefer Jericho over Punk by a landslide, Punk has earned the right to win his title match at Wrestlemania. CM Punk proved through his own work that he is worthy of being the guy, and headlining and winning Wrestlemania events. I'll be cheering for Jericho to win because he's a top 3 all time favorite, but Punk will have definitely earned the victory if he gets it.

 

[NDX]

I'd watch a Shane match over his brother in law's any day of the week. Shane's SSP was picture perfect & he could take a crazy bump when he needed to.

I forgot he even did one. Just checked it out again. Man, if he wanted to, he could have been one hell of a performer. Upper echelon level wrestler.