Things Schumacher Got RIGHT

[Paste Pot Pete]

Figured this would be-

at best, an attempt to give some credit to a guy who tried to entertain the masses (succeeded, with Forever) and fend off a studio and a toy company breathing down his throat (failed, sadly)..

or worse, simply an exercise in polishing a turd.

Personally, I think he nailed certain things, while getting others drastically wrong. But for now, I'm going to try to list the things he got RIGHT; help me if you can -

1. Bruce Wayne - Keaton was wonderful, but Burton's characterization of the Wayne character was a bit too quirky; the eccentric billionaire who lives on the hill. We get a few small glimpses of his social and business life, but not much. In Forever, there is a heavy presence of Wayne Enterprises, a very important aspect of the character (of course this is due primarily to the origin of Nigma). In both Forever and B&R, Wayne is presented as a socialite bachelor and a media darling (unfortunately, Clooney's Bruce and Batman are indistinguishable, aside from the costume).

2. Arkham Asylum - Straight out of the comics. A spot-on visual and atmospheric adaptation (it's a wonder why Burton didn't go here; no room in the story, I suppose). For those who complain about "realism" in Nolan's series, here is the perfect antidote - a larger than life, gothic madhouse full of crazies. Fitting, as the concept of Arkham is quite comic-bookish to begin with. All supervillains reside here? And constantly escape? Good job with this one, even in B&R to an extent (proved the absurdity of the constant breakouts).

3. NO KILLING - Very important aspect. Most cite Batman's earliest appearances as Burton's basis for a homicidal, machine gun using Batman (a valid point). But I think Schumacher did the right thing here, bringing him into the more classic "no murder" representation. It was a very smooth, intelligent and psychologically sound transition too. Kilmer's Bruce explains to Robin the mentally and emotionally damaging reprecussions of murder. "But your pain doesn't die with Harvey (or for him, Joker), it grows. So you go out to find another face, and another.." This Bruce is a realistically and morally grown character from the previous two films; he is haunted by the deaths he has caused. It's believable that he is know a force of justice, not vengeance.

Keep it goin'.

 

[blind_fury]

The only thing he got somewhat right was Alfred and he can thank Tim Burton for that. Everything else he got horribly wrong.

close thread.

 

[batmaluco]

The only thing he got somewhat right was Alfred and he can thank Tim Burton for that. Everything else he got horribly wrong.

close thread.

Damn, you beat me on it.
I would say that the best thing in his movies is Michael Gough, without a doubt.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

The only thing he got somewhat right was Alfred and he can thank Tim Burton for that. Everything else he got horribly wrong.

close thread.

Your life must be so fulfilling if you have time to post in threads you have no interest in.

 

[Catman]

Figured this would be-

at best, an attempt to give some credit to a guy who tried to entertain the masses (succeeded, with Forever) and fend off a studio and a toy company breathing down his throat (failed, sadly)..

or worse, simply an exercise in polishing a turd.

Personally, I think he nailed certain things, while getting others drastically wrong. But for now, I'm going to try to list the things he got RIGHT; help me if you can -

1. Bruce Wayne - Keaton was wonderful, but Burton's characterization of the Wayne character was a bit too quirky; the eccentric billionaire who lives on the hill. We get a few small glimpses of his social and business life, but not much. In Forever, there is a heavy presence of Wayne Enterprises, a very important aspect of the character (of course this is due primarily to the origin of Nigma). In both Forever and B&R, Wayne is presented as a socialite bachelor and a media darling (unfortunately, Clooney's Bruce and Batman are indistinguishable, aside from the costume).

2. Arkham Asylum - Straight out of the comics. A spot-on visual and atmospheric adaptation (it's a wonder why Burton didn't go here; no room in the story, I suppose). For those who complain about "realism" in Nolan's series, here is the perfect antidote - a larger than life, gothic madhouse full of crazies. Fitting, as the concept of Arkham is quite comic-bookish to begin with. All supervillains reside here? And constantly escape? Good job with this one, even in B&R to an extent (proved the absurdity of the constant breakouts).

3. NO KILLING - Very important aspect. Most cite Batman's earliest appearances as Burton's basis for a homicidal, machine gun using Batman (a valid point). But I think Schumacher did the right thing here, bringing him into the more classic "no murder" representation. It was a very smooth, intelligent and psychologically sound transition too. Kilmer's Bruce explains to Robin the mentally and emotionally damaging reprecussions of murder. "But your pain doesn't die with Harvey (or for him, Joker), it grows. So you go out to find another face, and another.." This Bruce is a realistically and morally grown character from the previous two films; he is haunted by the deaths he has caused. It's believable that he is know a force of justice, not vengeance.

Keep it goin'.

He got EVERYTHING wrong in Batman & Robin. The things he got right in Batman Forever was because he basically finished Burton's trilogy.

 

[Rockbottom]

Batman Forever is a good film, i still stand by that statement, sure B&R was awful, but BF was pretty good, I liked alot of things in it, i still think it would be a stronger movie if there was no Robin, and yes Two Face did go **** up but the riddler was improved on in some aspects.

 

[Bat Attack]

Shumacher's films had awesome cinematography (especially Forever).

 

[patrickbateman]

Schumacher Got RIGHT was the intro of ROBIN in BF

seriously how did he get the name robin???

 

[El Payaso]

Robin's suit in B&R. Yes, I rather that to the colourful thing.

And about the non killing Batman, I suspect that's more related to the kid friendly tone than anything else.

 

[Bat Attack]

The special effects in Shumachers 2 films were top-notch as well.

 

[Road Warrior]

The special effects in Shumachers 2 films were top-notch as well.

John Dykstra, man.

 

[Bat Attack]

The CGI still looks great.

 

[NolGoyHater]

I love Batman Forever. It's my 2nd favorite Batfilm. I think the sets were outstanding and very colorful. The Riddler lair with all the green neon ????s everywhere was totally Riddler. Definately took it to the next level over BR and B89. though, not to take anything away from Fursts designs as they will always be Gotham to me. I think the Batsignal was much improved as the light rested against the moving clouds behind it. The cinemetography was beautiful. Jim Carrey played the Riddler just like Frank Gorshin. Chris O'donnel did a good job as Robin. Nicole Kidman never looked so damn hot as she did in that movie. Serious. Alfred is still Alfred.

Sure the suit had nipples, sure it had the love it or hate it Neons, sure Batman liked to talk more than he did in B89. But he liked to talk more in BR as well. Also, he got his muscles back that were absent in BR with the sheilds look. I remember being glad to see muscles in the Vanity fair article in early 1995. Also, they were playing Batman movie songs on the Radio again. U2 and Seal. I think even the rock stations were allowed to play the Offsprings 'Smash it Up'. BR didn't have any other than Sioux and the Banshees Face to Face weirdo song.

 

[batmaluco]

I love Batman Forever. It's my 2nd favorite Batfilm. I think the sets were outstanding and very colorful. The Riddler lair with all the green neon ????s everywhere was totally Riddler. Definately took it to the next level over BR and B89. though, not to take anything away from Fursts designs as they will always be Gotham to me. I think the Batsignal was much improved as the light rested against the moving clouds behind it. The cinemetography was beautiful. Jim Carrey played the Riddler just like Frank Gorshin. Chris O'donnel did a good job as Robin. Nicole Kidman never looked so damn hot as she did in that movie. Serious. Alfred is still Alfred.

Sure the suit had nipples, sure it had the love it or hate it Neons, sure Batman liked to talk more than he did in B89. But he liked to talk more in BR as well. Also, he got his muscles back that were absent in BR with the sheilds look. I remember being glad to see muscles in the Vanity fair article in early 1995. Also, they were playing Batman movie songs on the Radio again. U2 and Seal. I think even the rock stations were allowed to play the Offsprings 'Smash it Up'. BR didn't have any other than Sioux and the Banshees Face to Face weirdo song.

Entirely understandable why you hate Nolan / Goyer.

 

[NolGoyHater]

I hope your not taking a jab at me.

 

[batmaluco]

^Not at all.
I only said that it is entirely understandable why you hate Nolan/Goyer.
The reasons you stated in that post are the extreme opposite of what Nolan/Goyer did with Batman. Almost like a bizarro version of their film.

But it's not a problem at all, you may like whatever you like. Or hate.

 

[CConn]

I thought NolGoyHater really didn't hate Nolan and Goyer? He just doesn't like BB as much as most people so he decided to create a stupid name.

 

[NolGoyHater]

Gotcha Batmulco, I'm on the same page as you now.

CCon, people in glass houses......

 

[KenK]

I have to disagree on Kilmer's Bruce/Batman over Clooney's. His Batman was a very stale approximation of Keaton's performance, which was far more natural. Kilmer just forces it a little too much. Then as Bruce Wayne, he has these moments where he's too serious and inquisitive for his own good. While Clooney didn't even try as Batman, at least his Bruce Wayne came naturally. Yeah, you could argue that he was just palying himself, but if it suited the character, who cares? When Clooney's Wayne was in public, he had the trophy girlfriend, he'd crack a joke or two, the whole nine.

If anything, I'd say B&R, while still being an utterly atrocious film, did more things right than Forever.

*No real love interest. The cruddiest things about the first and third Batman films is the love interest, and the idea that they'll actually stay together. Not to mention Nicole Kidman as Chase Meridian was just profoundly laughable. From the time she meets Batman, she's got "DO ME!!" stamped on her cleavage. Then there's the whole scene on roof with the batsignal, and then the whole midnight rendevous, where she meets him on her bedroom balcony with the white sheet wrapped around her naked body. This a Batman movie, or a Jackie Collins' telefilm?!?! Then of course, she gets kidnapped by the villains and used as bait.

But aside from Poison Ivy drugging Batman and Robin, Batman doesn't have any ho's tying him down. Bruce just has a standard model he's messing with, and I loved that they had a scene where he essentially tells her he ain't puttin' a ring on her finger anytime soon.

*No Dead Villains/No Villains Discovering Batman's Identity Basically, one justified the other in the previous films. Penguin sees Bruce with the mask off, he's gotta die. Riddler and Two-Face actually try to find out who Batman is, and once they do, at least one of them has to die, and they do some finagling so Riddler doesn't remember.

So it was nice in Batman and Robin that these aspects were absent from the film. And the fact that they at least tried to depict Freeze as a sympathetic character who was just trying to save his wife. And as for the whole "no killing" thing from Forever, Batman forced Two-Face into a decision he knew would have him fall off the beam and DIE. I think that's just the same as putting his hands on Harvey and breaking his neck.

 

[Cryogenic]

Shumacher's films had awesome cinematography (especially Forever).

Seconded.

While the neon look may have been far too overblown for many, it *was* a distinctive look in its own right, and the cinematography very capably incorporated it into a grand aesthetic. The Schumacher films might be excessive, but they're a dazzling cornucopia of light and colour.

"Your entrance was good ... his was better!"

God ... those films are such FUN.

And not in that tacky way I find "Batman Begins" to be, but in a delirious, campy, all-embracing kind of way. I would take Jim Carry goofing off as The Riddler ANY DAY over a serious actor like Gary Oldman being forced to deliver silly puns or drive the Batmobile, sorry .... "Tumbler" (!!).

And the production design, especially in "Forever", was just great. It's really something to look at. I don't think people realised how good they had it back then.

Elliot Goldenthal's score was also very striking -- not on the scale of Elfman's compositional work under Burton, but far better than that faceless nonsense churned out by Hans Zimmer.

Good call on the other stuff, guys. The special and visual effects were top notch. You have to get up very early in the morning to outdo the likes of John Dykstra! The character of Alfred was simply sublime, I loved the human dynamic between Alfred, Bruce and Dick Grayson and the films had a great sweep. And yes: Nicole Kidman looked absolutely STUNNING, and nothing like a silly little girl like Katie Holmes, but very much a WOMAN and reminiscent of the way Hollywood actresses were framed and lit decades ago (which fits, given the deliberately anachronistic look of both the Burton and Schumacher verse).

Unfortunately, the title character really suffered. Bruce was just very flat in both movies. Clooney was too Clooney and Val Kilmer went for something overly ponderous and ultimately cliched. You never really felt the true presence of the character in either film. This is where Burton REALLY knocked Schumacher for six. (Of course, I think Burton knocked him and Nolan for six in many other areas, too).

All in all, I don't think these movies are as bad as their reputation suggests. Schumacher turned the character into spectacle, which is somewhat antithetical to Batman, but at least it was grand spectacle. Yes, "Batman and Robin" was like "Batman Forever" on acid, and it really dragged the serious side of the series down, but at least everyone acted like they were in on the joke (unlike so many po-faced adaptations these days). I have found that the Internet is a very dogmatic place. At present, you're not allowed to slate "Casino Royale", "Batman Begins" or "Lord Of The Rings", and you're not allowed to love the "Star Wars" prequels or these older Batman movies. I guess I'm a very against-the-grain fellah.

 

[Superman2007]

Seconded.

While the neon look may have been far too overblown for many, it *was* a distinctive look in its own right, and the cinematography very capably incorporated it into a grand aesthetic. The Schumacher films might be excessive, but they're a dazzling cornucopia of light and colour.

"Your entrance was good ... his was better!"

God ... those films are such FUN.

And not in that tacky way I find "Batman Begins" to be, but in a delirious, campy, all-embracing kind of way. I would take Jim Carry goofing off as The Riddler ANY DAY over a serious actor like Gary Oldman being forced to deliver silly puns or drive the Batmobile, sorry .... "Tumbler" (!!).

And the production design, especially in "Forever", was just great. It's really something to look at. I don't think people realised how good they had it back then.

Elliot Goldenthal's score was also very striking -- not on the scale of Elfman's compositional work under Burton, but far better than that faceless nonsense churned out by Hans Zimmer.

Good call on the other stuff, guys. The special and visual effects were top notch. You have to get up very early in the morning to outdo the likes of John Dykstra! The character of Alfred was simply sublime, I loved the human dynamic between Alfred, Bruce and Dick Grayson and the films had a great sweep. And yes: Nicole Kidman looked absolutely STUNNING, and nothing like a silly little girl like Katie Holmes, but very much a WOMAN and reminiscent of the way Hollywood actresses were framed and lit decades ago (which fits, given the deliberately anachronistic look of both the Burton and Schumacher verse).

Unfortunately, the title character really suffered. Bruce was just very flat in both movies. Clooney was too Clooney and Val Kilmer went for something overly ponderous and ultimately cliched. You never really felt the true presence of the character in either film. This is where Burton REALLY knocked Schumacher for six. (Of course, I think Burton knocked him and Nolan for six in many other areas, too).

All in all, I don't think these movies are as bad as their reputation suggests. Schumacher turned the character into spectacle, which is somewhat antithetical to Batman, but at least it was grand spectacle. Yes, "Batman and Robin" was like "Batman Forever" on acid, and it really dragged the serious side of the series down, but at least everyone acted like they were in on the joke (unlike so many po-faced adaptations these days). I have found that the Internet is a very dogmatic place. At present, you're not allowed to slate "Casino Royale", "Batman Begins" or "Lord Of The Rings", and you're not allowed to love the "Star Wars" prequels or these older Batman movies. I guess I'm a very against-the-grain fellah.

My thoughts exactly!
I also want to add that Spider-Man basically ripped off the Batman Forever "sadistic choice" sequence, and the special effects really hold up nicely in Batman Forever...it had the perfect combination of stunt-work, minatures, and CGI. These days it's all CGI...directors today are on a un-attainable task to make CGI look completeley believable and photo-realistic and will sacrifice everything just attempt that. Batman Forever is one of my favorite films.

 

[Dr. Fate]

I still like Batman Forever, call it a guilty pleasure or whatever, it makes for good summer time viewing.

And yes, Nicole Kidman was quite possibly at her hottest/sexiest/most beautiful in this film (Katie Holmes, while cute, will never match her).

 

[Bat Attack]

Kidman was ****ing sexy as hell in forever.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I will always admit, there are some decent things about this film!

 

[Victarion]

The scene in Batman Forever where we see Two-Face's coin flipping in the air with the Batsignal in the background and the Alfred subplot of Batman and Robin were the things I think he got right! And the Arkham Asylum in Batman Forever mops the floor with the one in Batman Begins.