The Defenders This show in the larger MCU...

[XtremelyBaneful]

Because Stark has to tell the audience every hero he knows about or invite them to the Avengers?

This is a weak argument, I am sorry.

You don't have to be sorry, because I don't care if you think it's a weak argument. I find every argument defending the storytelling of Stark not knowing about the Defenders to be weak.

And my answer is yes btw, that Stark should in some capacity show that he knows about the other superheroes in New York since Cap3 was all about awareness of existing superheroes

 

[Spider-Fan]

You don't have to be sorry, because I don't care if you think it's a weak argument. I find every argument defending the storytelling of Stark not knowing about the Defenders to be weak.

And my answer is yes btw, that Stark should in some capacity show that he knows about the other superheroes in New York since Cap3 was all about awareness of existing superheroes

Once again, how do you know he doesn't know who they are? Maybe he just doesn't care about them or see them as useful. There is no point in Stark throwing out lines in movies about them because they've never been relevant to an MCU movie. Further, these guys have no bearing on the accords because they're vigilantes. They don't fight threats outside of their neighborhood, so the Sokovia Accords really isn't about these guys. The Accords are specifically designed for international incidents.

 

[Havok83]

Once again, how do you know he doesn't know who they are? Maybe he just doesn't care about them or see them as useful. There is no point in Stark throwing out lines in movies about them because they've never been relevant to an MCU movie. Further, these guys have no bearing on the accords because they're vigilantes. They don't fight threats outside of their neighborhood, so the Sokovia Accords really isn't about these guys. The Accords are specifically designed for international incidents.

IA with this. Most people that see the movies never touch the tv shows and to throw lines about them will only throw people off wondering what the heck that is about. CW made a vague reference about superpowerd beings popping up and that can be refer to the Inhumans in SHIELD or the characters on Netflix. Thats about as much as anyone can expect and we dont need to hear Daredevil and Jessica Jones mentioned by name when they are irrelevant to the films. They were acknowledged even if its not to the degree that people would like..
'

Still means nothing even if he did know about them. Peter is a kid he can groom, you think Luke Cage or Jessica Jones are going to be easily groomed, or look good for the public image? Same for Daredevil.

I'll always say that Tony recruiting a child into battle was about the dumbest thing he did in that film. He didnt pick him to groom him; he needed immediate muscle in his fight against Steve. We all know that it was for marketing purposes but it made little sense in film, especially since a motivator for him was inadvertently causing the death of a kid and forced to face responsibility for that. He just picks up Peter with no training or even testing the limits of his abilities and uses him as a weapon in a fight that doesnt involve him? Ugh, I should stop bc thats a rant for another time

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Once again, how do you know he doesn't know who they are?

Once again? I don't remember you bringing this up as backup in the first place

And anyways, how do I know? Because he's literally never mentioned them. So I have absolutely no reason to believe he knows they exist.

Maybe he just doesn't care about them or see them as useful.

But that's stupid. He sees a teenager with superhuman strength useful but not a bling ninja with supersonic senses, or a bulletproof man with superhuman strength stronger than Cap, and a woman who's just about as strong as cap makes no sense. He was in NYC, he could've taken that opportunity to get all the help he could get.

but anyways to your point. "maybe he just doesn't care..." maybe. maybe not. either way, this is you, a fan who is just trying to fill in plot holes since the narrative of the entirety of the MCU is not addressing it.

There is no point in Stark throwing out lines in movies about them because they've never been relevant to an MCU movie.

There definitely is a point...it would finally signify that the Netflix heroes are recognized and the first time they're actually mentioned in the movies and just the other way around.

Further, these guys have no bearing on the accords because they're vigilantes. They don't fight threats outside of their neighborhood, so the Sokovia Accords really isn't about these guys. The Accords are specifically designed for international incidents.

That's not what I took away from that scene at all. They're ALL vigilantes and Ross even used that word in the room. The accords apply to all enhanced individuals/superhuman people and the genesis of the accords started with the Chitauri invasion, which happened in NYC, which is where these heroes operate. Not only that but the tv shows have often brought up how these characters are in the same league as the rest
"he's one of those"
"you're one of them"
"is he another one of you people? how many more are there like you?"
"I was trying to pull my mother out from the rubble, watching her bleed to death, while all around me you people were raining down hell."

IA with this. Most people that see the movies never touch the tv shows and to throw lines about them will only throw people off wondering what the heck that is about. CW made a vague reference about superpowerd beings popping up and that can be refer to the Inhumans in SHIELD or the characters on Netflix. Thats about as much as anyone can expect and we dont need to hear Daredevil and Jessica Jones mentioned by name when they are irrelevant to the films. They were acknowledged even if its not to the degree that people would like..
'

"most people that see the movies never touch the tv shows" doesn't fly because for narrative purposes that doesn't matter. it's not like everybody who saw the Avengers movies also went out and saw every other Marvel film. Otherwise the grosses would all be the same. And I disagree, they are relevant to the films simply by being part of the MCU superhero roster.

 

[Spider-Fan]

And anyways, how do I know? Because he's literally never mentioned them. So I have absolutely no reason to believe he knows they exist. But that's stupid. He sees a teenager with superhuman strength useful but not a bling ninja with supersonic senses, or a bulletproof man with superhuman strength stronger than Cap, and a woman who's just about as strong as cap makes no sense. He was in NYC, he could've taken that opportunity to get all the help he could get.

You know he only had like, 2 days to get them right? Did you want him to spend it all recruiting people? Further, do you think these guys are the joining type? All of them would have needed convincing even if he knew who they were and there was no time for that.

but anyways to your point. "maybe he just doesn't care..." maybe. maybe not. either way, this is you, a fan who is just trying to fill in plot holes since the narrative of the entirety of the MCU is not addressing it.There definitely is a point...it would finally signify that the Netflix heroes are recognized and the first time they're actually mentioned in the movies and just the other way around. That's not what I took away from that scene at all. They're ALL vigilantes and Ross even used that word in the room. The accords apply to all enhanced individuals/superhuman people and the genesis of the accords started with the Chitauri invasion, which happened in NYC, which is where these heroes operate. Not only that but the tv shows have often brought up how these characters are in the same league as the rest
"he's one of those"
"you're one of them"
"is he another one of you people? how many more are there like you?"
"I was trying to pull my mother out from the rubble, watching her bleed to death, while all around me you people were raining down hell."

Then why has Iron Man told Peter to not be Spider-Man and honor the Accords? Shouldn't Spider-Man stopping a bank robbery land him in the raft by this definition? It's because street level crime is not something on the Accords jurisdiction.

As for me being a fan justifying this, my point is it doesn't need justifying because it doesn't matter. You're trying to say this is a plot hole, but it is not a plot hole. Plot hole means logical gap within the plot of a film. This is simply not including characters into stories. That is different. Daredevil not being involved is not a hole in the Civil War plot.

 

[Havok83]

"most people that see the movies never touch the tv shows" doesn't fly because for narrative purposes that doesn't matter. it's not like everybody who saw the Avengers movies also went out and saw every other Marvel film. Otherwise the grosses would all be the same. And I disagree, they are relevant to the films simply by being part of the MCU superhero roster.

The other MCU films are directly relevant to the Avengers in a way that none of the TV shows ever have been. Not quite the same comparison. You can disagree but nothing on Netflix has been relevant to the films. Again a passing reference to those shows was made in CW. Anything beyond that really has been unnecessary to the plotlines or development of the characters in the films. There is already a lot to juggle. Anything relating to the tv shows is material that would end up on the cutting room floor that doesnt strengthen the films

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

More than a kid with strength we had the webbing. That is what set Spider-Man apart from other enhanced people at this stage.

Assuming instead of selling photos to the newspapers we had YouTube videos which was referrenced in Ant-Man or their equivalent going up. So not Stark having perfect knowledge of the local Inhumans and super soldiers. But some kid in the media era posting his exploits

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

You know he only had like, 2 days to get them right? Did you want him to spend it all recruiting people? Further, do you think these guys are the joining type? All of them would have needed convincing even if he knew who they were and there was no time for that.

He was already in NY, it wouldn't have taken him 2 days to track the rest of them down coz he's already in their hometown. And whatever the case, if he knew about them and wanted to recruit them he would've mentioned them and done that and right now it looks like he has no idea the exist.

Then why has Iron Man told Peter to not be Spider-Man and honor the Accords? Shouldn't Spider-Man stopping a bank robbery land him in the raft by this definition? It's because street level crime is not something on the Accords jurisdiction.

Being a vigilante is on the Accords jurisdiction. Anyone with enhanced abilities are.

As for me being a fan justifying this, my point is it doesn't need justifying because it doesn't matter. You're trying to say this is a plot hole, but it is not a plot hole. Plot hole means logical gap within the plot of a film. This is simply not including characters into stories. That is different. Daredevil not being involved is not a hole in the Civil War plot.

It doesn't matter to you. It's not a plot hole to you. It matters to me. It's a plot hole to me. Simple as that. It's a plot hole that Stark was in NY, knew about one superhero vigilante, and not the rest. If you don't care that's fine, but I don't have to be okay with it.

The other MCU films are directly relevant to the Avengers in a way that none of the TV shows ever have been. Not quite the same comparison. You can disagree but nothing on Netflix has been relevant to the films. Again a passing reference to those shows was made in CW. Anything beyond that really has been unnecessary to the plotlines or development of the characters in the films. There is already a lot to juggle. Anything relating to the tv shows is material that would end up on the cutting room floor that doesnt strengthen the films

The entirety of NYC being threatened is definitely relevant to the films - at least it should be. If it isn't, then it's poor writing. The Avengers should care if there is some psycho ninja organization trying to destroy the city. There's no reason for them not to and it's not like any of them are saying "hm, well there are other superheroes there taking care of the block, so we don't have to worry about it."

 

[Havok83]

The entirety of NYC being threatened is definitely relevant to the films - at least it should be. If it isn't, then it's poor writing. The Avengers should care if there is some psycho ninja organization trying to destroy the city. There's no reason for them not to and it's not like any of them are saying "hm, well there are other superheroes there taking care of the block, so we don't have to worry about it."

But that’s something for the tv shows to tackle, not the films. If anything the Avengers should have shown up on Netflix bc that’s where the plot is relevant. It doesn’t belong in the movies. The stuff with the Hand has already played out. Why would we see The Avengers discuss/try to deal with it in Infinity War for example?

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

But that’s something for the tv shows to tackle, not the films. If anything the Avengers should have shown up on Netflix bc that’s where the plot is relevant. It doesn’t belong in the movies. The stuff with the Hand has already played out. Why would we see The Avengers discuss/try to deal with it in Infinity War for example?

Because they would come to the realization that even while they had their time occupied, NYC is in danger which would be a wakeup call to them that they're not alone, that there are even more of them out there

 

[Havok83]

Because they would come to the realization that even while they had their time occupied, NYC is in danger which would be a wakeup call to them that they're not alone, that there are even more of them out there

And again they were vaguely referenced in CW. The Hand plot line wasn’t mentioned but the other powered beings were already acknowledged. It was one of the factors driving the premise

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

And again they were vaguely referenced in CW. The Hand plot line wasn’t mentioned but the other powered beings were already acknowledged. It was one of the factors driving the premise

and again "vaguely referenced" doesn't fly it is a poor excuse to accept as a reference to the Netflix shows so it's not an acknowledgement whatsoever

 

[Spider-Fan]

I'll always say that Tony recruiting a child into battle was about the dumbest thing he did in that film. He didnt pick him to groom him; he needed immediate muscle in his fight against Steve. We all know that it was for marketing purposes but it made little sense in film, especially since a motivator for him was inadvertently causing the death of a kid and forced to face responsibility for that. He just picks up Peter with no training or even testing the limits of his abilities and uses him as a weapon in a fight that doesnt involve him? Ugh, I should stop bc thats a rant for another time

It is the only part of the movie that is forced, yes. But, I would argue he planned to groom him. Otherwise, he made that very complex costume and AI he gave him VERY quickly. Now, I sort of excuse Spider-Man in Civil War because he is Spider-Man and in the battle itself he is very entertaining and adds a lot to it, but logically it is a plot divergence that makes little sense. Especially in the time window they need to find Cap in.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Sorry to bump this thread up, but this show really makes Jeph Loeb sound like a moron saying "it's all connected" especially after what happens at the end of Infinity War. What Loeb should have said right from the start was that these shows are on their own separate universe and that the stuff from the movies have 0 affect on what the shows do, basically how Warner Brothers does it with the DCEU and the Berlanti DC Universe. But instead, he repeatedly says "it's all connected" whenever asked about the connections between the shows and the movies.

 

[NotNickFury]

At least he's been more careful in recent years to avoid saying that, but yes, in the grand scheme of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, this really came back to bite him because it was mostly him and the TV side spouting this talk, while the film division just went about its business. And I would put good money on the Netflix shows completely ignoring the finger snap effects.

Unless they call it The Disappearance like how the battle with Loki is just The Incident.

 

[Dr. Evil]

At least he's been more careful in recent years to avoid saying that, but yes, in the grand scheme of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, this really came back to bite him because it was mostly him and the TV side spouting this talk, while the film division just went about its business. And I would put good money on the Netflix shows completely ignoring the finger snap effects.

Unless they call it The Disappearance like how the battle with Loki is just The Incident.

If the events of Infinity War affects Marvel TV, it's on Agents of SHIELD. They should have just kept the MCU TV to just Phil Coulson and company. Instead they introduce the Netflix shows and Loeb acts like a damn idiot with his "it's all connected" nonsense. A large majority of the Netflix MCU characters have gotten mixed reactions, which is the opposite of many of the characters in the movies, who have been universally loved.

 

[MadVillainy]

I really don't care about the shows being connected. Would've been cool to have a property that had films and TV series really connected but it doesnt affect how I feel about either.
The Netflix verse has more pertinent problems regarding quality imo

 

[Spider-Fan]

Again, the shows may just not fall with that particular event in the timeline, so they will never have to address it. The Netflix shows never assigned a year. JJ season 2 indicates it is sometime after Civil War, but we don't know exactly how long. Further, we also don't know what happens in Avengers 4. Also, the Russos and the writers did consider including the Netflix characters at one point. So if they and the Infinity War writers were considering throwing them in as a cameo at one point, I guess they must be connected, right?

Fans need to stop whining about this. It is sort of irritating at this point.

 

[dmcreif]

Being a vigilante is on the Accords jurisdiction. Anyone with enhanced abilities are.

The Accords don't apply to the Netflix heroes.

The entirety of NYC being threatened is definitely relevant to the films - at least it should be. If it isn't, then it's poor writing. The Avengers should care if there is some psycho ninja organization trying to destroy the city. There's no reason for them not to and it's not like any of them are saying "hm, well there are other superheroes there taking care of the block, so we don't have to worry about it."

Because the Avengers are too "high level" for this and by the time Matt, Jessica, Luke and Danny know the scale of the threat they're being hunted by the NYPD.

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

He was already in NY, it wouldn't have taken him 2 days to track the rest of them down coz he's already in their hometown. And whatever the case, if he knew about them and wanted to recruit them he would've mentioned them and done that and right now it looks like he has no idea the exist.




Being a vigilante is on the Accords jurisdiction. Anyone with enhanced abilities are.


It doesn't matter to you. It's not a plot hole to you. It matters to me. It's a plot hole to me. Simple as that. It's a plot hole that Stark was in NY, knew about one superhero vigilante, and not the rest. If you don't care that's fine, but I don't have to be okay with it.
The entirety of NYC being threatened is definitely relevant to the films - at least it should be. If it isn't, then it's poor writing. The Avengers should care if there is some psycho ninja organization trying to destroy the city. There's no reason for them not to and it's not like any of them are saying "hm, well there are other superheroes there taking care of the block, so we don't have to worry about it."

Perhaps being an international vigilante is against the international accords. I would think that the state of New York would claim jurisdiction over four strong brawlers.

As to Ninjas running around drawing Stark or Maria Hill's attention, why? We already have an example of a villian using stolen S.H.I.E.L.D tech for a flying suit taking and selling alien space tech being left to the FBI

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

The Accords don't apply to the Netflix heroes.

Obviously going by the narrative the Accords don’t apply to them. My question is why? Narratively it does not make sense

Because the Avengers are too "high level" for this and by the time Matt, Jessica, Luke and Danny know the scale of the threat they're being hunted by the NYPD.

Is this the best fan-explanation you can do? The police can’t stop them. This “high level” bullshxt is again just Hollywood politics

Perhaps being an international vigilante is against the international accords. I would think that the state of New York would claim jurisdiction over four strong brawlers.

You think the state of NY would claim jurisdiction even though nyc has been the center of the setting of the MCU for a while, with Av1 taking place there.

As to Ninjas running around drawing Stark or Maria Hill's attention, why? We already have an example of a villian using stolen S.H.I.E.L.D tech for a flying suit taking and selling alien space tech being left to the FBI

Why not? Daredevil would be at least as effective as Black Widow. And he’s the only ninja. Luke Cage is as effective as Loki in terms of brute strength and Jessica seems stronger than cap himself so if Stark came all the way to NY to recruit, it’s stupid for him to go after just one when there are plenty

 

[MadVillainy]

Look man...

From a storytelling perspective is it stupid that The Defenders and Avengers haven't linked up. Really stupid and I don't think anyone can seriously defend the fact that they havent met, again from a storytelling perspective.

HOWEVER it's very clear that Feige has no interest, for a multitude of reasons (some justifiable) that the Avengers & Defenders won't link up. And at this point if you're complaining about it's pretty silly. It's not going to happen anytime soon and the writing has been on the wall for that since DDS1.

And honestly it's not like Avengers is going to get better as a movie just by having the characters meet the Defenders and vice versa. Both properties have their own problems quality wise that they should worry about.

It's been 4 years since DDS1 started filming. The dream is dead

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Look man...

From a storytelling perspective is it stupid that The Defenders and Avengers haven't linked up. Really stupid and I don't think anyone can seriously defend the fact that they havent met, again from a storytelling perspective.

HOWEVER it's very clear that Feige has no interest, for a multitude of reasons (some justifiable) that the Avengers & Defenders won't link up. And at this point if you're complaining about it's pretty silly. It's not going to happen anytime soon and the writing has been on the wall for that since DDS1.

You yourself just said no one can seriously defend the lack of any crossover, so to me what's silly is all these folks trying to come up with their own explanations which all fall flat ultimately because it doesn't make sense.

You're also proving my point that Feige has no interest, therefore the main reason there's no crossover is due to politics in entertainment. Not because the thought would not make sense. So any attempt to make sense are just wrong.

And honestly it's not like Avengers is going to get better as a movie just by having the characters meet the Defenders and vice versa. Both properties have their own problems quality wise that they should worry about.

It's been 4 years since DDS1 started filming. The dream is dead

Honestly, I saw Av3 last Wednesday and I was pretty bored throughout. Maybe I need to see it again, or maybe I'm just getting old and not into this superhero stuff as much, but for me personally, I know that if there would've been a cameo for the Netflix heroes, the movie would for me have been that much more enjoyable. That's how important this is to me. I have my own bars & standards for these movies/shows, everybody does

 

[MadVillainy]

You yourself just said no one can seriously defend the lack of any crossover, so to me what's silly is all these folks trying to come up with their own explanations which all fall flat ultimately because it doesn't make sense.

You're also proving my point that Feige has no interest, therefore the main reason there's no crossover is due to politics in entertainment. Not because the thought would not make sense. So any attempt to make sense are just wrong.

Honestly, I saw Av3 last Wednesday and I was pretty bored throughout. Maybe I need to see it again, or maybe I'm just getting old and not into this superhero stuff as much, but for me personally, I know that if there would've been a cameo for the Netflix heroes, the movie would for me have been that much more enjoyable. That's how important this is to me. I have my own bars & standards for these movies/shows, everybody does

Of course, and I think the evidence shows that a majority of people's standards don't really care about the Avengers/Defenders meet up. In fact a majority people's standards show that they don't really care about The Defenders as a team

But ok

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Of course, and I think the evidence shows that a majority of people's standards don't really care about the Avengers/Defenders meet up. In fact a majority people's standards show that they don't really care about The Defenders as a team

But ok

What’s wrong with having a minority opinion?