Timeline of Wonder Woman's Killings, Post-Crisis (First Draft)

[The Major]

That's what separates the heroes from the anti-heroes.

WW is the only mainstream hero I can think of who can be both at once while still remaining in character.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't see Diana as an anti-hero at all. I see her as a hero who sometimes deems it necessary to kill. That doesn't automatically make her an anti-hero. She still has a very solid moral core and doesn't fight dishonorably in any way. She'll just kill an opponent if she sees no other option. That's actually the same as the vast majority of straight up, no anti- about 'em superheroes now, in fact.

 

[fifthfiend]

If we talk about an enemy dangerous enough - someone who is too dangerous to be alive (like the whole "Max mind control on Superman" thing) and has chances to survive a fall then yeah. I think WW should suck it up and do it, something nor bats or supes has the balls to do.

I'm just saying WW is supposed to be an "extremely strong, independent female character" and it's pretty hard to show that in these post Buffy/Hillary Clinton days, you have to push extra hard. Playing Destiny's Child in the background doesn't cut it anymore. So you must have a dramatic and fundamental difference other than "this one has boobs" to distinguish her from his male counterparts, without coming of as forced. I think DC had the right idea with the she's willing to kill for the greater good. Amazon and all. (And frankly I like the idea of the supposedly most innocent, naive member of the Trinity values innocent life so much, that she's willing to murder for it. And no, I don't support the death penalty. I just think WW as a character should.) But that's just my opinion, and I don't think I'll write the WW movie, so don't worry.

Thank mercy.

I think it's probably possible to come up with a way to differentiate Wonder Woman from Superman that isn't the same way they differentiated, say, Rob Liefeld's Supreme.

 

[Anubis]

Wonder Woman is like the Mighty Thor. She's a hero and does believe in conserving life, but if she has too, she will put her Tiara through a Frost Giant's head.

 

[BrianWilly]

Some people, including a lot of writers, including Johns, just can't see the difference between that and being a full-out unrepentant killer. It's either a complete old-school "no killing ever" dogma, or else the character just ends up killing or wanting to kill every enemy. The phrases "only as a last resort" and "considering all other options first" doesn't exist in their dictionaries.

Diana is not an anti-hero. The amount of times that she has offered mercy and forgiveness to an opponent, even to point of naivete, far outnumbers the amount of times that she has ever needed to kill anyone.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I was gonna comment on Johns' allowing the GLs to kill and some of them having ethical dilemmas over whether they'd actually utilize the ability, but that's not really true. None of them have had dilemmas, they just immediately split into camps who would and wouldn't kill, and then Salaak brutally killed one of those little evil baby things, which made me sad.

 

[BrianWilly]

That was Gibbons, I think. And he did have some dilemmas for Arisia and Kilowog. Johns' specific example that I tend to bring up is Laira, who was sort of just unremarkable and there and warriorish beforehand and as soon as she embraced killing it was like HURR RED LANTERN HURRRR all of a sudden with no real pretext.

And of course there was his depiction of Wonder Woman in IC#1, which even he had to go back and edit when the trade come out.

 

[Spike_x1]

Hm, I wasn't aware that an edit was made for WW's bloodthirst in the IC trade. Got any scans?

 

[BrianWilly]

No scans, but y'know when she was about to b****stab Mongul and Superman stops her and Batman's like WTF R U DOING and she goes "What does it look like I'm doing?" There's a line added in the trade right after that where she says "I was going to pin him to the ground."

Y'know. With a sword. By swinging it at him in an arc.

 

[Hush]

Oh so he makes Bats out to be a bad guy, what a jackass.

 

[Spike_x1]

 

[TheCorpulent1]

No scans, but y'know when she was about to b****stab Mongul and Superman stops her and Batman's like WTF R U DOING and she goes "What does it look like I'm doing?" There's a line added in the trade right after that where she says "I was going to pin him to the ground."

Y'know. With a sword. By swinging it at him in an arc.

Geez, that's not much better than the original scene.

 

[Spike_x1]

In some ways it actually sounds worse, since Wonder Woman appears to be an idiot for thinking that a slicing motion will equate to pinning someone to the ground and not killing them, rather than simply appearing out of character by purposely trying to slice through and kill them.

 

[The Question]

...The part where Two-Face had a gun and Gordon's kid would have been the perfect time to use a batarang.

I don't remember the blocking in that scene quite well, but from Batman's standpoint, it could have been "If I tackle him, he's down, and if I throw a batarang at him, there's a chance I don't quite hit him the right way and now we have a crazy guy with a gun who, on top of that, is in pain and kind pf pissed."

 

[The Major]

Wonder Woman is like the Mighty Thor. She's a hero and does believe in conserving life, but if she has too, she will put her Tiara through a Frost Giant's head.

Agreed.

 

[The Question]

I always saw Thor as being more open to the idea of killing someone simply because they deserved it and swearing blood oaths and all that. He simply didn't go hunting like The Punisher did, and restrained himself for the sake of practicality and not offending the mores of modern society which he was forced to exist in if he was going to be Midgard's champion. I mean, he is a Viking. That's still pretty tame by their standards.

 

[Spike_x1]

I don't remember the blocking in that scene quite well, but from Batman's standpoint, it could have been "If I tackle him, he's down, and if I throw a batarang at him, there's a chance I don't quite hit him the right way and now we have a crazy guy with a gun who, on top of that, is in pain and kind pf pissed."

You're telling me that if Batman had thrown the batarang in that scene, that people would question whether it was right of him to make that decision instead of just tackling the psycho? It's a comic book movie - no one in their right mind would think twice if Batman just flung a batarang and knocked Harvey's gun away or knocked him the hell out.

Given the choice between tackling a guy off of a building to his death, and throwing a batarang to disable the dude; even with only a split second to decide, only one of those things is something that I can see an accurate portrayal of Batman doing. Granted I still loved the movie, and he wasn't as cold blooded about killing criminals as Burton's Batman was, but a better adaptation of the character would have brought Two-Face in alive.

 

[The Major]

I always saw Thor as being more open to the idea of killing someone simply because they deserved it and swearing blood oaths and all that. He simply didn't go hunting like The Punisher did, and restrained himself for the sake of practicality and not offending the mores of modern society which he was forced to exist in if he was going to be Midgard's champion. I mean, he is a Viking. That's still pretty tame by their standards.

WW is kinder then Thor but she still acts in a similar way.

 

[The Question]

You're telling me that if Batman had thrown the batarang in that scene, that people would question whether it was right of him to make that decision instead of just tackling the psycho? It's a comic book movie - no one in their right mind would think twice if Batman just flung a batarang and knocked Harvey's gun away or knocked him the hell out.

Given the choice between tackling a guy off of a building to his death, and throwing a batarang to disable the dude; even with only a split second to decide, only one of those things is something that I can see an accurate portrayal of Batman doing. Granted I still loved the movie, and he wasn't as cold blooded about killing criminals as Burton's Batman was, but a better adaptation of the character would have brought Two-Face in alive.

I wasn't going to say anyone would have questioned it. I was talking about the perspective of the writers. From where they were sitting, working out from inside of Batman's head in that situation, tackling him probaby made more sense than a batarang. Also, Harvey was so close to the ledge that any post batarang out-knocking may has resulted in something very, very similar.

Also, it seems to me that Harvey's death was ambiguous, and left ambiguous for a reason. I mean, an already somewhat injured Batman survived the exact same fall.

 

[The Major]

Also, it seems to me that Harvey's death was ambiguous, and left ambiguous for a reason. I mean, an already somewhat injured Batman survived the exact same fall.

Originally I thought that as well but Nolan has said Two-face died.

 

[Spike_x1]

I wasn't going to say anyone would have questioned it. I was talking about the perspective of the writers. From where they were sitting, working out from inside of Batman's head in that situation, tackling him probaby made more sense than a batarang.

I really don't see how. Being shot, it would've taken much more time for Batman to gather his strength and run across the room with enough force to drive himself and Harvey off the ledge, than it would have to simply aim a batarang and throw.

Also, Harvey was so close to the ledge that any post batarang out-knocking may has resulted in something very, very similar.

So just aiming to disarm Two-Face was out of the question?

Also, it seems to me that Harvey's death was ambiguous, and left ambiguous for a reason. I mean, an already somewhat injured Batman survived the exact same fall.

Ambiguous? Aaron Eckhart confirmed that Two-Face is dead as a doornail. Not to mention the whole memorial that the city was shown having for him.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

When I left the theater, I thought Gordon and Batman had spirited Harvey away to Arkham or somewhere secretly and held the memorial because the people of Gotham needed to think Harvey went out the gallant, noble hero. I was surprised when Eckhart said he was definitely dead in an interview.

 

[Anubis]

Looks like they let the wrong villain die.

 

[Spike_x1]

Kinda seems silly that Batman refused to kill the Joker when he was holding hundreds of people hostage on the boats, but ended up killing Two-Face over a single kid and Gordon.

Meh.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Ideally, he shouldn't have killed either of them. I hate that people don't get that. Batman never kills, period. It's a fairly major part of his characterization.