To Believe or Not To Believe? (SHOW RESPECT, OR RISK A BAN) - Part 2

[Reek]

Here I will quote what Jesus said about homosexuality



Jesus was about love for all and taking care of the sick and poor. The Jesus and God I know don't damn anyone to hell for being gay and there are several churches that have and accept gay members

but they wont allow them to get married. Its a ridiculous notion to allow gay people to be a part of your religion, but not get the same 'benefits'.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

There are churches that allow marriage. The benefits come from the government not the church

 

[Snow Queen]

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I know many Christians that have straight up said gay people will burn in hell. They even call Obama the Anti-christ. That is bat **** crazy to me.

Listing all of the bad things Scientology has done is cool and all... but lets not start listing all the terrible things various religions have done.

My point is no one should call someone crazy because of different beliefs.

compare religions in their earlier years to scientology in its earlier years for a fair comparison. Jews tortured and crucified people for blasphemy in a dump... and yes Jesus was crucified in a dump, not some nice hilltop, like many christians say.

I dont want this to look like i am defending scientology in any way shape or form... i think its an insane religion... but its not any more crazy then some others... and the way it carries it self may be worse in some ways, but pretending that the other religions dont have their huge dose of crazy is comical.

I have a step grandmother who is a Christian... but somehow has had out of wedlock sex resulting in two children, and because I don't go to church, wrote Bible verses in clothing gifts she gave me. That **** is ****ing crazy to me.

Back to what this originally started as... Damning gays to hell... no hell does not have to be some fiery painful place.. even if its just your rejection of god blah blah blah... why would God make you gay just to send you there? if he didn't make you gay... why did he give you the choice to be gay...then send you there? thats some really flawed thinking.

I'm not saying that other religions don't have their, as you put it, huge dose of crazy. Certainly not how I would put that, but using your words here. I'm not talking about the belief system, just their actions as an organization.

Because the Christian God as presented in the Bible is full of contradictions, cruelty, arbitrary rules that were very clearly not divinely inspired in the slightest and things that just don't add up.

 

[Reek]

By 'huge dose of crazy', i meant nothing offensive (just to clear that up)... its just a phrase for 'extreme' ... should have worded it differently, so if anyone is offended by that i do apologize, but read that i really meant nothing mean by it.

 

[Reek]

There are churches that allow marriage. The benefits come from the government not the church

I said 'benefits' in regards to churches allowing gays to believe and attend their church, but won't allow them to get married. they will use tax money to build their churches though... gays also pay taxes.

"there are churches that allow marriage." Ok? that has nothing to do with the churches that don't allow it. that's basically saying you can worship the same lord as us at this church... but we won't let you get married, you'll have to go down the street to that other church.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Why would any gay person wish to attend a church that doesn't accept them?

 

[Reek]

Why would any gay person wish to attend a church that doesn't accept them?

I'm not gay, so I can't answer that.

But you said there are churches that accept them and allow gay marriage. Thats great. But are you saying if you were gay, and wanted to get married in your church, but they dont allow it... you'd have to find a christian church that would allow it? Seriously? How is that not finding loops holes and molding a religion to fit your wants and needs?

To be clear, I am not arguing with anyone at all... I just read this thread a lot and more curious than anything since I jsut really dont believe in any of it.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

I just don't see any gay Christian choosing to go to a church that doesn't accept them or outright despises them. None of the gay Christians I know do this.

 

[Human Torch]

Here I will quote what Jesus said about homosexuality

Again with this. It's a nonsensical argument every time. Obviously my standard answer is having no effect. Let me put it this way: I've never heard you speak against drowning puppies. I guess you must advocate drowning puppies. See how that works? That's basically the argument you're using.

 

[spiderman2]

I know it's a few people here that identify as being a Christian but I have a few questions, and honestly it might get personal so you defintely don't have to answer if you don't feel comfortable doing so. But for those that do consider themselves christians, how did you become one? Did you have an encounter with christ for yourself? Did you just grow up in a Christian home or did you become a Christian on your own? I mentioned that I experienced and heard about things that I feel are acts of God. Not I think there may have been some scientific logic behind what I experienced and heard about that falls under the supernatural, but I honestly believe that God orchestrate's those things and it's not science alone. Have any of you experienced anything like that? How to you feel on that subject? Lastly, have you ever had any hostile encounters with people once they found out your religious beliefs?

First of all this is a interesting question and not easy to answer and I am not the best when it comes to talking about my self but hear it goes. My mom has always believed in god and I don't remember much growing up don't have the best memory lol but my mom and dad got divorced when I was really young like 2 or something and my dad always said he was a Christian but sure didn't act like it and was not the best dad. He put a lot of pressure on both me and my sister who is 2 years older to try to lie about are mom doing bad things she didn't do and calling her names and trying to force us to pick between him and are mom. We would go to church with him but like I said he wasn't the best person. It was a hard thing to deal with has I was young and didn't really understand what was going on at all and the pressure from it all made me cry a lot of times. My sister remembers more then me because she is older then me.

At around 8 years old so when my sister was 10 we stopped seeing are dad has we wasn't allowed to see has any more because he was hurting us metaly and I have seen him over the years and he hasn't really changed. Any way after that time period things where hard for a few years in till I got a little older and was able to mostly get over it. I still think about it form time to time has it dose suck to not have a relationship with your dad but like I said he never changed or said he was sorry or any thing. I know I went to church when I was little like I said and I know that I went to a few like middle school age group things at church a few times but I don't remember much another then that. I am now 25 going to be 26 in a few months and all I can really say is I believe in god because to me it just makes a lot of since to me. I don't believe that we just got hear. The way the universe works and such I believe there was some one that created it all. Things like the 10 commandments and the seven deadly sins just make a lot of since to me. Yes there is no prof of god but there is no prof of there not being a god and I don't think putting your faith in god is any more crazy then just thinking things happened to get us hear for no reason and that we came form nothing.

I fell like there are a lot of things we don't know and real never know and I believe that sciences and religion go hand in hand together and I love sciences my self was my favorite subject in school. I don't know a lot about the bible compared to a lot of people and I have always had a hard time having faith has I am just a kind of person that thinks a lot and wores a lot more then I should. With that said reading the bible and trying to get to know god and understand things more is just a life long type of search for me as things like god and the universe and life and what not is just hard to think about has there are a lot of things that are just over the head for humans to comperhind and trying to get better at putting my faith in god. I have a goal that I want to read the whole bible form start to finish as I want to know more then I do now. No I have never had things happened to me that I would say was god per say but I have heard of things that people have had happened to them. A few months ago I had something happened to some one I know that I believe was a act of god and a garden angle.

A few months back my sisters feonca brother got into a motorcycle accident. He has 5 siblers 3 brothers and 2 sisters. It was I think the youngest one that got into a motorcycle accident and he went though a car window when he was driving on his motorcycle and end up with some bad injures. He brook his ribs and some another bones but the reason I say he is lucky to be alive and why I believe it was not his time and why god was there for him is that he had a cut on his neck that messed the main artery by like 1/10 of an inch that if he had cut he would have been dead in like 20 seconds. So you could say he should be died to be that close. Another person I know her brother who I don't know and who doesn't believe in god while maybe he dose know lol got stranded in the ocean some how and said while he was floating that he heard god saying to him you are going to be ok just old on for a few minutes. Long story short there was one another guy with him that also was out in the ocean and where there was a call to have people go out for him they didn't know there was 2 of them and thought there was only one and when they found the another guy they thought it was him and where just minutes form calling it off when they found out he was out there to just before he was saved. The fact that some one who doesn't or at least didn't even believe in god heard from god just shows that god is always with you and will never give up on you!

 

[Greens]

Okay, so Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. Back to the part of Leviticus where homosexuality is condemned. I understand (well... understand?) that Jesus discarded the old testament, but why were homosexual activities wrong in the first place? Also, if homosexuality isn't mentioned in the new testament... why are Christians still against it? If Jesus didn't come out against homosexuality, you're obviously doing it on your own.

 

[Apollo]

Here I will quote what Jesus said about homosexuality



Jesus was about love for all and taking care of the sick and poor. The Jesus and God I know don't damn anyone to hell for being gay and there are several churches that have and accept gay members

Preach it DJ!

 

[Apollo]

I know many Christians that have straight up said gay people will burn in hell. They even call Obama the Anti-christ. That is bat **** crazy to me.

What are their names and how do you know them?? What church do they belong to?

 

[Apollo]

And that is in the Old Testament which has nothing to do with Jesus

And I would add that is why it was so important that he came.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

And that is in the Old Testament which has nothing to do with Jesus

but it is still the Bible, is it not?

 

[Human Torch]

Okay, so Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. Back to the part of Leviticus where homosexuality is condemned. I understand (well... understand?) that Jesus discarded the old testament, but why were homosexual activities wrong in the first place? Also, if homosexuality isn't mentioned in the new testament... why are Christians still against it? If Jesus didn't come out against homosexuality, you're obviously doing it on your own.

It feels like we've gone over this ground a million times already.

Jesus (by His own admission) didn't come to abolish the OT, but to fulfill it.Most "cultural guidelines" (you know, stuff people want to throw out like "You can't wear two different fabrics" and so on) were fulfilled and need not concern us anymore.

Homosexuality is considered a perversion in the Bible. It is not the way God intended the human body to function. Lest I be too graphic,I'll leave it at that.

For the 500th time: Paul (under inspiration of the Holy Ghost) preaches against homosexuality in the book of Romans. Since it was a common sin in Rome,it needed to be spoken against. Since the Jewish people that primarily made up Jesus audience already considered homosexuality anathema due to their clear understanding of Leviticus, there was no great need to preach on the subject.

Now, what I will say, is that I'm sure if Jesus did come across gay people, He would treat them with dignity and would certainly protect them from harm. But Jesus would also say as He did to many "Go and sin no more."

 

[Human Torch]

damning gay people to hell for being different isn't crazy at all.

This is a good misconception that needs to be cleared up.

I don't believe God sends people to Hell for "being gay", but for unrepentant sin.

If you commit a sin- any sin- in willful habitual disobedience, that is what sends you to Hell.

Last I checked, there was only one unpardonable sin and it wasn't homosexuality.

 

[Human Torch]

^ Also, I'm not sure I find comfort in the idea of a woman marrying her rapist being acceptable in a different historical context.

Because you've failed to discern how to read the biblical context properly.

It's merely a provision for the benefit of the raped woman. In those days, women who weren't virgins were not going to be accepted by any "respectable" man. So, the man who "spoiled" her, was made to take care of her (and more importantly any child that was a result) if she wanted him. There was nothing mandatory on the woman at all to agree to this. She could live as an old maid or hope some guy would still be interested. (a long shot in those days/that culture)

The best way to look at it from our perspective,would be as a date rape/shotgun wedding provision.

See how things come into better focus when you drop the rhetoric and actually try to read the Bible in it's cultural/historical context?

 

[Apollo]

but they wont allow them to get married. Its a ridiculous notion to allow gay people to be a part of your religion, but not get the same 'benefits'.

I can't see it as being a ridiculous notion, because there are many people in this world that believe marriage is only between one man and one woman, Such as the non-denominational conservative church I attend every now and then. It is a very important belief to them. You can't strip them from that belief. These views about marriage will be around forever. It is what it is.

 

[Greens]

Homosexuality is considered a perversion in the Bible. It is not the way God intended the human body to function. Lest I be too graphic,I'll leave it at that.

That's so broad that it could be applied to artificial limbs or even pacemakers. Did God mean for us to replace our body parts with machinery?

For the 500th time: Paul (under inspiration of the Holy Ghost) preaches against homosexuality in the book of Romans. Since it was a common sin in Rome,it needed to be spoken against. Since the Jewish people that primarily made up Jesus audience already considered homosexuality anathema due to their clear understanding of Leviticus, there was no great need to preach on the subject.

But weren't the guidelines in Leviticus fulfilled by Jesus, in the eyes of his audience? Why then did they still cling to the part about homosexuality?

 

[BestGirl]

Because you've failed to discern how to read the biblical context properly.

It's merely a provision for the benefit of the raped woman. In those days, women who weren't virgins were not going to be accepted by any "respectable" man. So, the man who "spoiled" her, was made to take care of her (and more importantly any child that was a result) if she wanted him. There was nothing mandatory on the woman at all to agree to this. She could live as an old maid or hope some guy would still be interested. (a long shot in those days/that culture)

What evidence is there that a woman could turn this proposition down?

 

[Snow Queen]

Because you've failed to discern how to read the biblical context properly.

It's merely a provision for the benefit of the raped woman. In those days, women who weren't virgins were not going to be accepted by any "respectable" man. So, the man who "spoiled" her, was made to take care of her (and more importantly any child that was a result) if she wanted him. There was nothing mandatory on the woman at all to agree to this. She could live as an old maid or hope some guy would still be interested. (a long shot in those days/that culture)

The best way to look at it from our perspective,would be as a date rape/shotgun wedding provision.

See how things come into better focus when you drop the rhetoric and actually try to read the Bible in it's cultural/historical context?

28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Point out where it says she has any say in this matter.

 

[Greens]

Historical context shouldn't even matter. Are you telling me God wrote (I know, he didn't literally write it) us a guidebook, only for over half of it to be irrelevant a short while later?

 

[Human Torch]

Point out where it says she has any say in this matter.

Where does it say she is required to marry the guy? Everything related to the case says "He must". The man is being made to "do the right thing". There was no requirements made on the woman. (I.E. It doesn't say "She must". People read into many of these things simply what they want to see.)

 

[Human Torch]

Historical context shouldn't even matter. Are you telling me God wrote (I know, he didn't literally write it) us a guidebook, only for over half of it to be irrelevant a short while later?

Some of it is still useful to show us the contrast of Christ's Freedom bought for us. We wouldn't know or appreciate our freedom from the law in Christ,if we could not look back on all the regulations we were under before He freed us from captivity.