To Believe or Not To Believe? (SHOW RESPECT, OR RISK A BAN) - Part 1

[SV Fan]

LOL, you just exactly wrote the first story in the Bible.

I love the story of Adam and Eve. It basically has 3 morals

1. Women bad

2. Knowledge evil

3. Don't question authority

this is basically how they introduce us to God as a guy who will screw you over if you do anything to question authority, or even as little as start to get a better understanding of what's going on. I am basically not buying into this fear based propaganda.

To me the hero of Adam and Eve was the snake, because unlike god he wanted people to gain knowledge instead of remaining a couple of dimwits.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

So god makes us skeptical by nature, but punishes us if we decide to be skeptical. That would be like me telling a 4 year old nonchalantly using some 3rd party source he shouldn't eat candy before supper then leaving a huge bag full of candy infront of him and leaving the room for a couple hours, then getting mad at the kid when he does it. Seems rather ridiculous that god enjoys playing games.

we have this intellect and it is up to us, each and every person, what we do with it.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

So are you saying that all of the dozens of writers of the bible over thousands of years had a mental illness when writing the bible or not? I'm not sure I understand your point.

No what I'm saying is people that claim to hear God or be in contact with God throughout the bible probably suffered from schizophrenia. Take Abraham for instance, first he hears God tell him to kill his son, then at the last moment God tells him to stay his hand. That is classic auditory hallucinations associated with schizophrenia, one good voice and one bad voice. People also have visual hallucinations as well so things that they think is God's doing could be hallucinations. People in ancient times knew nothing about mental illness so if you lived at that time and voices talking to you from seemingly nowhere you would assume it's God as well. I'm not even saying it wasn't God though, maybe schizophrenic people have the ability to transcend dimensions and get into contact with beings from another realm, yes we know the chemical problem people have in their brain that causes this but what if that's the way God communicates?

Also my problem with the OT is the fact that much of it was an oral history for a very long time and everyone knows that when things get passed down from generation to generation things change or get lost and the true meaning may never be known. Also the God of the NT is much different than the OT God

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I don't believe multioke goldilock planets make Earth any less miraculous.

If the was only one grain of sand on every beach that gave immortal life, those grains would still be rare and special.

I kind of wish we could see other goldilock planets with life and see other ways evolution developed just to show that evolution can have countless results, not just humanoid civilization.

Although I think dinosaurs being the top animal for millions of years emphasizes this.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I love the story of Adam and Eve. It basically has 3 morals

1. Women bad

2. Knowledge evil

3. Don't question authority

this is basically how they introduce us to God as a guy who will screw you over if you do anything to question authority, or even as little as start to get a better understanding of what's going on. I am basically not buying into this fear based propaganda.

To me the hero of Adam and Eve was the snake, because unlike god he wanted people to gain knowledge instead of remaining a couple of dimwits.

Reminds me of Morpheus giving Neo the choice.

Ultimately how much did the truth (red pill) help anyone?

Once the "free minds" had the truth they couldn't really do anything with it.

The Garden of Eden or The Matrix was ignorance but it was also bliss.

Please forgive my attempt to layer the book of Genisis with a 90's action movie.

But I thought it could be a useful comparison.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

God isn't against knowledge. In the case of Adam&Eve he was trying to spare them from the knowledge of sin, pain, suffering. But they were deceived by the devil or the snake and disobeyed God, which brought sin in the world. Also, it's the arrogance of man that we should be on the same level as God and know all the things of the universe and all his reasonings. I talked to a few atheist I know and they claim that IF God is real they would ask him questions when they die and stand before him during judgement. I am like that's not an argument you will win ( to myself) . If God choose to give you all his answers and explainations for your questions or things that happened in life, you would end up looking silly for even trying to question/ argue with him.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Well I think the story of Adam and Eve is completely allegorical, the main problem with the story is everyone would be born of incest and we know if incest is rampant than serious problems arise

 

[SV Fan]

In the case of Adam&Eve he was trying to spare them from the knowledge of sin, pain, suffering.

But why even put a tree there in the first place? You don't want people eating from a stupid tree, here is an idea don't place a stupid tree there.

I am sorry but some of the stories in the bible are downright ridiculous. I will at least give the New Testament a little more credit for being somewhat believable compared to the Old Testament. All I know if I was on the First Council of Nicaea, I would have voted to completely ignore the entire Old Testament and declare Jesus was a completely different god from the OT God who just happened to be born Jewish.

From the little I know about the Gnostic Christians, I think I like there take on Jesus better then the Roman Catholic Church's version we get today.

I talked to a few atheist I know and they claim that IF God is real they would ask him questions when they die and stand before him during judgement. I am like that's not an argument you will win ( to myself)

I would probably say: Well I guess i was wrong, looks like the joke was on me, funny guy.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

Divine inspiration coincided with a time when science had no basis. An agnostic thought would be to consider that man had questions about life during the writings of the bible. We don't know how man chose to answer such questions. There was no scientific approach to explain a reason for sentient beings. Would man have simply filled the question of "How did we get here?" by use of a mystical all knowing creator: God?

Creating a God alleviated much stress of the mind. It was a way to answer how we got here, how to exist in our lives, and what happens after our lives end.

Even after science and secular thought in the natural world became important, since there was no clear answer to explain the universe, the bible was still something to fill in the blanks. This is why it has lasted for so long, even in such an ever changing secular world.

We can accept not knowing and keep searching for clues that may never solidify a true answer. Or we can rely on the bible as "words passed down to man" which is something to fill in the blanks at least. I see merits to both.

 

[Human Torch]

I am sorry but if one believes God is all powerful and created the world from scratch I don't think it's to much that he makes an appearance in public. Given the communication technology we have today he doesn't have to visit every person individually, he can just make an appearance in one place and most media will cover it.

As Shikamaru pointed out we have seen the President appear in public forms, so your analogy falls flat. I think a better analogy might be me demanding Santa Claus or the Tooth Fiery present themselves in public to me.

He did present Himself publicly several times in the Bible. Last time He was called Jesus Christ.

And sorry if you guys don't like the analogy.I don't know if it hits too close to home or whatever,by my point still stands. The Lord is not going to be put to the test on your whims any more than O is gonna stop over to hear my opinion on policy.

 

[Human Torch]

God wanted Man in His presence.That was always His plan from the beginning. Man proved unwilling to obey God's warnings about the Tree (and look where we are today).

But I've heard the atheist contention before that God was "wrong" for having the Tree before them. That's like blaming a father for having a stove in the house as the reason his 5 y/o gets burned. You can only warn the child so many times before you eventually have to turn your back and hope your child heeds the warning.

 

[PacificBoy]

God wanted Man in His presence.That was always His plan from the beginning. Man proved unwilling to obey God's warnings about the Tree (and look where we are today).

But I've heard the atheist contention before that God was "wrong" for having the Tree before them. That's like blaming a father for having a stove in the house as the reason his 5 y/o gets burned. You can only warn the child so many times before you eventually have to turn your back and hope your child heeds the warning.

I get your analogy but I would age the 5 year old to a teenager; any father who leaves his 5 year old unattended and unsupervised near a stove is quite possibly very negligent.

 

[Greens]

God isn't against knowledge. In the case of Adam&Eve he was trying to spare them from the knowledge of sin, pain, suffering. But they were deceived by the devil or the snake and disobeyed God, which brought sin in the world.

And God created pain and suffering... why? And eating from the tree brought sin into the world... why? God is not bound by anything. He does what he pleases. Eating from the tree didn't HAVE to bring sin into the world. Why was that apple evil in the first place? It's just an apple. I can imagine Adam and Eve thinking the same. Plus, wasn't everything in the garden of God? Eve probably trusted the snake for that reason. The concept of evil didn't exist to her.
A just and loving God would have evaluated his and Eve's actions beyond "You disobeyed me! You have doomed man!" Judging from this story, God is a simpleton or cruel. Or both.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

And God created pain and suffering... why? And eating from the tree brought sin into the world... why? God is not bound by anything. He does what he pleases. Eating from the tree didn't HAVE to bring sin into the world. Why was that apple evil in the first place? It's just an apple. I can imagine Adam and Eve thinking the same. Plus, wasn't everything in the garden of God? Eve probably trusted the snake for that reason. The concept of evil didn't exist to her.
A just and loving God would have evaluated his and Eve's actions beyond "You disobeyed me! You have doomed man!" Judging from this story, God is a simpleton or cruel. Or both.

God is neither stupid or cruel. That goes back to what I was saying, that people think we are on the same playing field as God and every action or reason must be explained to us or God is wrong or cruel. God's thinking and reasoning is not like a human's. A lot of non believers like to examine God as if he were just another human like them which is why they have a hard time with the whole concept of God.

God knew what Adam & Eve was gonna do and already had a counter for their downfall. That was his son Jesus who died for the sins of every person past, present and future. The gift of eternal life is open to anyone who seeks it. But he also gave us free will so he isn't gonna force himself on anyone who isn't open to him. Also , its crazy to say that God is cruel or is punishing you when something bad happens. Jesus didn't have an easy life when he was here on earth, neither did his disciples and other believers who followed God in the bible. They all faced hard times doesn't mean God hated them or was punishing them. Sometimes he allows things to happen as a test of faith. Basically he is saying Can you trust me when the world says there is no hope for you in this situation?

It rains on the just and unjust alike. If life here on earth was easy and nothing ever went wrong and nobody faced hardships them what would be the point of heaven? Why would people look to God for anything? I faced tough times and people told me there was little hope for me to overcome some issues. I remained faithful to God and not only did I over come those issues, but I came out of them better than I was before. In my early years as a Christian, I use to think like most people of the world do. God must be mad at me because X bad thing happened to me today or this week. Ultimately, I found out that wasn't the case. Sometimes its just life.

 

[SV Fan]

That goes back to what I was saying, that people think we are on the same playing field as God and every action or reason must be explained to us or God is wrong or cruel. God's thinking and reasoning is not like a human's. A lot of non believers like to examine God as if he were just another human like them which is why they have a hard time with the whole concept of God.

Yes the good old god works in mysterious ways argument, which basically states since I can't answer that question with a logical answer I will just state god works in mysterious ways beyond you and me to rectify why he does that(so I don't have to think about it).

On the subject of god working in mysterious ways. Why do we eat and breath using our mouth, if I was god I would have the 2 things completely separate to prevent people from choking. If somebody created us from scatch he used a pretty crappy design, don't you think? But hey god works in mysterious ways.

 

[Greens]

God knew what Adam & Eve was gonna do and already had a counter for their downfall. That was his son Jesus who died for the sins of every person past, present and future.

Not a very efficient plan, is it? It took him thousands of years to do something he could have done in five seconds. Before Jesus, God destroyed all of humanity, when humanity had arisen again he allowed towns to burn let rape, incest, murder and slavery run rampant. Meanwhile, he KNEW what was going to happen all that time. What was the point of any of that? Are we God's World of Warcraft? Did he purposefully drag humanity through the dirt for thousands of years?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

On the subject of god working in mysterious ways. Why do we eat and breath using our mouth, if I was god I would have the 2 things completely separate to prevent people from choking. If somebody created us from scatch he used a pretty crappy design, don't you think? But hey god works in mysterious ways.

I actually have a reason for this: using the same area for eating and breathing encourages careful eating.

You know if we had seperate tunnels for food and air, I guarantee plenty of people would just shove large chunks of food in their mouths inevitably causing food to get jammed in a their greedy food hole.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Not a very efficient plan, is it? It took him thousands of years to do something he could have done in five seconds. Before Jesus, God destroyed all of humanity, when humanity had arisen again he allowed towns to burn let rape, incest, murder and slavery run rampant. Meanwhile, he KNEW what was going to happen all that time. What was the point of any of that? Are we God's World of Warcraft? Did he purposefully drag humanity through the dirt for thousands of years?

Buddhism definitely has a better excuse for human suffering than Abrahamic religions.

I'm a deist and I personally view the suffering of innocent people as an illusion to test your true motives and convictions.

I don't buy into original sin. At face value it seems plenty of children bear a heavier cross than other, luckier children.

Again, Buddhism has a more valid justification for this discrepancy: karma from previous lives.

 

[SV Fan]

I actually have a reason for this: using the same area for eating and breathing encourages careful eating.

You know if we had seperate tunnels for food and air, I guarantee plenty of people would just shove large chunks of food in their mouths inevitably causing food to get jammed in a their greedy food hole.

Now can you explain why we pee were we have sex?

 

[Pink Ranger]

Now can you explain why we pee where we have sex?

You mean, like inside a restroom stall at Arby's?

 

[SV Fan]

You mean, like inside a restroom stall at Arby's?

Not sure I would want to do either there

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Now can you explain why we pee were we have sex?

Both are crucial functions of the human body and there are limited safe areas on our anatomy.

Plus placing both in the midesection ensures that most people will keep those functions private and hidden.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Yes the good old god works in mysterious ways argument, which basically states since I can't answer that question with a logical answer I will just state god works in mysterious ways beyond you and me to rectify why he does that(so I don't have to think about it).

On the subject of god working in mysterious ways. Why do we eat and breath using our mouth, if I was god I would have the 2 things completely separate to prevent people from choking. If somebody created us from scatch he used a pretty crappy design, don't you think? But hey god works in mysterious ways.

People can't answer the question because we aren't God. All we can do is guess based on what we do know about him. I could be like non believer and say God is evil because he didn't do what I wanted him to do so he must be stupid, cruel even though I don't have the whole picture or understand his reasoning. Something I don't understand happens means God doesn't exist or is again stupid . That's the most logical response right? But I don't think like that and I am glad I don't. God timing is different from ours and he isn't some magical figure here to serve us. Even if God came down explained everything about the universe and life in general who's to say humans are capable of processing that kind of knowledge? I would suspect most would look like deers in a headlight if something like that were to happen . Or we could have those arrogant people would corrupt that kind knowledge. I know this doesn't apply to atheist but to me as a Christian I think it's arrogant for me to even think that I am somehow smarter than the guy who created the universe and that my ways are better than his. Non believers believe in science, but yet there are still TONS of things humans have yet to figure out or fully understand in the world of science . God is kinda the same way, over time he will share his plan and reasoning with you (if your open to him of course).

 

[Shikamaru]

ShadowBoxer, I'll repeat what I said earlier. The only one claiming God thinks like a human are the religious themselves. Religion, by its nature, is an attempt at understanding God's mind and dumbing it down to that of a human in many places.

I have no problem admitting that if there's a God, I would be ignorant of how complex his mind would be. That's part of why I reject Christianity, which makes him sound like a primitive man in the way he thinks. But you on the other hand make claims about this supposed deity that you have no way of knowing. You're doing the very thing you're accusing atheists of doing.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

ShadowBoxer, I'll repeat what I said earlier. The only one claiming God thinks like a human are the religious themselves. Religion, by its nature, is an attempt at understanding God's mind and dumbing it down to that of a human in many places.

I have no problem admitting that if there's a God, I would be ignorant of how complex his mind would be. That's part of why I reject Christianity, which makes him sound like a primitive man in the way he thinks. BUt you on the other hand make claims about this supposed deity that you have no way of knowing. You're doing the very thing you're accusing atheists of doing.

Well said.

The bible specifically describe God's motives and actions.

There's no reason to assume the mortals who wrote and edited the bible had a direct line to God's activity and thought process.