The Dark Knight To Bleach or Not to Bleach? That is the Question

[ShaneHelms]

I think so. There are also two guys laughing when The Joker shoots the last goon.

Me and My Pal Marcus.

I was also being a *****bag and talking all throughout it while filming it.

Not the smartest thing.

But i've seen versions where people have cleaned it up a bit. There are at least 3 or 4 on Youtube.

 

[Solidus]

As Dirt_Like_Me said, he doesn't have to be the Joker, he isn't forced to be the Joker, he gets to be the Joker. It's who he is. He didn't decide it, he was simply "born" that way.

The man he was before is of no importance. For all intents and purposes, they were never the same person. The Joker was simply "born" like this, thrust into being as the monster he is. Thus, he is an "absolute".

With makeup, I just find it harder to get the "absolute" angle, because he's a man who makes a choice to become another person. To me, an absolute does not invent itself; it just is.

There to me is nothing hard about getting to the "absolute" angle with the scaring. After reading TKJ again a few times, it just is way more then the physical deformation that gave birth to what we now know as the Joker. Many times when he is talking to Batman during TKJ, he does claim that they are alike, and that they both had a "bad day". To me it was not just the deformation process that made him go over the edge. I think that was a part, and important part, but it showed that it was psychologically everything that created the Joker. Whether the story be a crime boss, or a failed comedian. To me TKJ showed that it truly was a bad day, he did not try to make Gordon like him in TKJ by putting him in chemicals, or physically deform him. He tried to turn Gordon like him, by psychologically scarring him.

To me it seems clear that the main thing that created the absolute of the Joker was psychological to a point. But yes there is that one side where the deformation gave him a permanent feeling of being the Joker, in his eyes. Truly anything on any level is with in the eye of the beholder. Just like the reflective processes discussed in most Sociology intro classes in College. Where a person believes how others see them, then they act accordingly, then it becomes a vicious cycle. Still he could of gotten out of the chemicals if he did not have a bad day lets just say he fell in to chemicals one day. He may have come out and just cried himself to sleep, and never left his house again. Or put regular makeup on to give him the appearance of normalcy. Or even put black on him making him look like a zebra. But the combination of what he is prior, and the one bad day that scarred him in the mind, with the cherry on top of the physical deformation that he felt was hand in hand with his bad day, created this clown persona. Either it be permawhite or scars. It still will be with him forever in his eyes, and every time he looks into the mirror.

To me the deformation is never \ the only thing that makes him absolute. It is one little thing to it, but there is so much more. To me the deformation was a painful process that just etched into his brain that he can never go back to what he was, that he forever will be the Joker. And to me being scar or permawhite achieves the same thing.

But still good post, and I still say that there would be nothing wrong with him being Permawhite at all. But to me still the scars are not a big deal, and achieve the same end and impact in my eyes.

 

[ronny]

This is my favourite look for the character of The Joker, right after Arkham Asylum and DKR. The reason? It looks good, it's twisted, I like the whole rotting effect (Which is why I love Edgar from Men in Black), it's still Jokerish, it has elements of the Hamill Joker (Racoon mask) and it further stresses the clownish overtones of the character.
In terms of bleaching, well, it would have been nice to see it more overtly, but I'm guessing that somewhere along the line this guy did have a run in with some chemicals. Look at his hands and, for what its worth, when he's dressed up as a copper I reckon he's got make-up on as well. I'm not saying he's chalk white,but in places he very well could be.
It wouldn't even bother me so much if they updated the Red Hood costume to something less Freudian.

 

[cjblair]

There to me is nothing hard about getting to the "absolute" angle with the scaring. After reading TKJ again a few times, it just is way more then the physical deformation that gave birth to what we now know as the Joker. Many times when he is talking to Batman during TKJ, he does claim that they are alike, and that they both had a "bad day". To me it was not just the deformation process that made him go over the edge. I think that was a part, and important part, but it showed that it was psychologically everything that created the Joker. Whether the story be a crime boss, or a failed comedian. To me TKJ showed that it truly was a bad day, he did not try to make Gordon like him in TKJ by putting him in chemicals, or physically deform him. He tried to turn Gordon like him, by psychologically scarring him.

To me it seems clear that the main thing that created the absolute of the Joker was psychological to a point. But yes there is that one side where the deformation gave him a permanent feeling of being the Joker, in his eyes. Truly anything on any level is with in the eye of the beholder. Just like the reflective processes discussed in most Sociology intro classes in College. Where a person believes how others see them, then they act accordingly, then it becomes a vicious cycle. Still he could of gotten out of the chemicals if he did not have a bad day lets just say he fell in to chemicals one day. He may have come out and just cried himself to sleep, and never left his house again. Or put regular makeup on to give him the appearance of normalcy. Or even put black on him making him look like a zebra. But the combination of what he is prior, and the one bad day that scarred him in the mind, with the cherry on top of the physical deformation that he felt was hand in hand with his bad day, created this clown persona. Either it be permawhite or scars. It still will be with him forever in his eyes, and every time he looks into the mirror.

To me the deformation is never \ the only thing that makes him absolute. It is one little thing to it, but there is so much more. To me the deformation was a painful process that just etched into his brain that he can never go back to what he was, that he forever will be the Joker. And to me being scar or permawhite achieves the same thing.

But still good post, and I still say that there would be nothing wrong with him being Permawhite at all. But to me still the scars are not a big deal, and achieve the same end and impact in my eyes.

Do you want an origin story? I don't he's the Joker always is always will be. The one thing I hated about Batman '89, and TKJ, is the "you made me" accusation. TKJ had just been released and was a major inspiration for '89, otherwise Burton wouldn't have had the chemical idea. I believe the Joker we'll get is the one in TLH. He comes in tries to destroy the city, Batman stops him off to Arkham he goes. No explanation for his actions simply an anarchist that is able to become powerful as the mob weakens. Just like TLH, the rogue gallery kills the mob off, led by 2face, and these lawless freaks become Batman's bread and butter.

 

[cjblair]

this is because ur a nit picking fanboy

You're just jealous that his avatar is way cooler than yours...oh wait you don't have one! lol

 

[The Joker]

Edit

 

[turtlefocker]

I still wish he was perma-white but it's not going to ruin the movie for me.

 

[Bat-Mite]

I can't believe the number of posts I've already seen from folks claiming that permawhite is unrealistic, etc. etc. I guess this comparison has to be made for the gazillionth time.

An example of a real life person who has made himself "permawhite" (amongst other things ). It could have easily worked in Nolan's world while keeping the realistic tone. Although, as I've stated before, I don't see his Batman films as being very realistic in the first place.

 

[ActuallyRobin]

My stance on this is simple:

Would I prefer if Joker was permawhite? Yes. Am I bothered that he's not going to be? No. It looks like every other element of Joker has been nailed. And in the world of comic book movies, where radical changes are always made to the source material, that is a wonderful thing.

I am completely psyched for Nolan's take on the character.

I kind of feel the same as you, I'm not amazingly bothered. Here's why. Permawhite (through some chemical accident or whatever) would seem to indicate that the Joker didn't have a choice in the matter. If he makes himself white through makeup, then that's a choice, and to me it reinforces his insanity.

Hope people can understand that!

 

[Eggyman]

My stance on this is simple:

Would I prefer if Joker was permawhite? Yes. Am I bothered that he's not going to be? No. It looks like every other element of Joker has been nailed. And in the world of comic book movies, where radical changes are always made to the source material, that is a wonderful thing.

I am completely psyched for Nolan's take on the character.

Well said, rubber ducky

At least he doesn't look like a power ranger

 

[Solidus]

Do you want an origin story? I don't he's the Joker always is always will be. The one thing I hated about Batman '89, and TKJ, is the "you made me" accusation. TKJ had just been released and was a major inspiration for '89, otherwise Burton wouldn't have had the chemical idea. I believe the Joker we'll get is the one in TLH. He comes in tries to destroy the city, Batman stops him off to Arkham he goes. No explanation for his actions simply an anarchist that is able to become powerful as the mob weakens. Just like TLH, the rogue gallery kills the mob off, led by 2face, and these lawless freaks become Batman's bread and butter.

I never said anything about an origin story. The Joker is always more then just what is at face value. Yes TDK will focus on him being a force of nature. But there will be more to him then that. I mean at the end of BB it even strait forward says that since Batman has come around, evil has escalated to his level, and then he shows him the Joker card. To me the two of them have always existed in unison, yet ying and yang at the same time.

Joker does have plans, but only he gets them or understands them. But as audiances he is more then just that. I mean Nolan said the best part is when Joker and Batman get into a verbal fight. It shows its more then just mindless action. The Joker even in the trailer states: "See to them....you're just a freak...Like Me!" In an odd way they are the same, yet different. You don't need an origin story to explain the deep meanings behind the Joker, they are just more subtle in TDK. In the prologue a line that always sticks out is: "What ever doesn't kill you....makes you.....stranger..." There is more to the Joker then what your trying to claim. No it won't have an origin visually or show what happens, but even from what little footage we have seen, and if you look beneath the superficial layers of what we know, there is quite a lot to this Joker, always has been.

Yes he will be a force of nature. But those kind of things are the most interesting and deepest things to explain.

 

[StylishHokie21]

*responding to a troll*

Did you even read the first post? If you have nothing to contribute, don't post in here.

 

[StylishHokie21]

For me, it's become less about backstory and more about aesthetics. I just dont think he looks nearly as cool with the smeared make-up as he does in those official photos where his make-up is perfect. icecsm16's avatar, and the other photos that were released with it, looked perfect. I'd love it if that's how he looked the whole movie, and if his neck, arms, hands, etc were white as well. I just think it looks better.

Addionally, that cop photo showed pretty much what I never wanted to see. A joker with normal skin and hair, who wasn't wearing make-up to look like that. I dont know if the Joker will get a trial scene in this movie, at one point the rumor was that he's the one who scars Harvey during his trial, but if it does happen, i'd rather him not look normal (albeit with scars) for that scene. Same goes for any scene of him in Arkham. I used to think it'd be awesome if the movie ends with a young, blonde psychiatric intern meeting him in his cell, but I think that scene'll be kinda lame if he just looks like he does in that cop photo.

Agreed. I mean if they at least painted his neck white I wouldn't really be bothered by it that much.

 

[ronny]

Permawhite (through some chemical accident or whatever) would seem to indicate that the Joker didn't have a choice in the matter.

That's the main problem with his origin story. He's made into this monster by forces outside his control. Which, when you consider what a controlling character he is, just doesn't work.
By choosing his path it makes his actions that more powerful.

 

[cjblair]

I can't believe the number of posts I've already seen from folks claiming that permawhite is unrealistic, etc. etc. I guess this comparison has to be made for the gazillionth time.

An example of a real life person who has made himself "permawhite" (amongst other things ). It could have easily worked in Nolan's world while keeping the realistic tone. Although, as I've stated before, I don't see his Batman films as being very realistic in the first place.

Proof that a person can have a successful decade, the '80s, and continue to live off that period for the rest of their lives. When was his last hit, I ask you.

 

[cjblair]

That's the main problem with his origin story. He's made into this monster by forces outside his control. Which, when you consider what a controlling character he is, just doesn't work.
By choosing his path it makes his actions that more powerful.

That's why he's Bat's number one enemy, both had a bad day and both took it different ways.

 

[ronny]

That's why he's Bat's number one enemy, both had a bad day and both took it different ways.

I just don't like this man being humanised, or having his actions justified because his wife died or he got forced to wear a red helmet or something.

 

[Keyser Soze]

I personally find the approach Nolan has taken to be rather interesting. Originally the make-up bothered me considerably, but I've gotten over it, mostly. The reason is basically because the look is very, very cool--I love the decaying, textured look to the Joker. I'm going to be perfectly honest, even if it means being ostracized by my fellow purists: I like the look of TDK's Joker as much as and possibly more than I like his look in the comics.

As I've explained in the past, Joker's appearance is part of a compulsion to expose undercurrents of violence in things ostensibly innocent. In the comics, he expresses this with a very clean-cut clown look, and it works. But the rotting, imploding look he has in TDK works well, too.

That said--there's no reason it needed to be this way. The idea that the classic look could not have worked is absurd, regardless of how much I like the new one. Likewise, there's no reason the look they have could not have been achieved with bleached skin. If Joker fell into a vat of chemicals and scrabbled out, that would give him a comparably uneven, blotchy look, and would be no less realistic than a magic microwave emitter.

Excellent post.

Like you, having The Joker wear white facepaint is not how I would have done it, if I was writing/directing "The Dark Knight". I would have made him permawhite. But just because Nolan's take on The Joker is not what my own would have been, doesn't mean it can't be a valid, or indeed faithful interpretation of The Joker.

 

[ronny]

I just thought. What if the discoloured look on his hands was due to him working on the Joker venom? Chemicals can leave nasty burns. Plus, it would allow them to put in the warehouse scene where Gordon finds The Joker's "experiments".
Most worryingly it seems as though he'll even tinker around with his own henchmen.
"Bright lights, like Christmas".

 

[Symbiotic]

I'd just like to give kudos to J for actually slapping on the "To Bleach Or Not To Bleach" title for this thread. (And to Solidus for coming up with it.)

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I think its a great thread title!

 

[BubbaGump]

Frankly, I don't care about the permawhite/bleach one way or the other. If that doesn't make me "a true Joker fan" so be it. I'm open to new interpretations, and this new twist Nolan has put on the Joker is a fresh new way of looking at the Crown Prince of Crime. We'll still have the comics, we'll still have B89 (hell, even Adam West's show for that matter), but just this once it's great to see a different take on the Joker's appearance. It's drastic, it's controversial, but where's the fun in playing it safe?

 

[thewhyteman]

Skin bleaching doesn't turn skin pure white, but it is achievable to get something close to it. All it takes is a stretching of the truth, much like a Microwave Emitter would never exist in that capacity, and would fry every person and explode all metal within its range. They had to stretch the truth (quite a lot, if you think about what I just mentioned) to make it seem plausible. The atmosphere of the film does the rest. When the film treats it seriously, it's easier for an audience member to take it seriously.


Oh, and about that picture:

This is someone with vitiligo. All it would take is a stretching of the truth to get an audience to believe that a skintone like that was the result of a chemical. They don't even need to go into what chemicals, because it would really only be alluded to vaguely, with comments like "Whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you stranger."

Now, of course, compromises would have to be made to adapt it into Nolan's world. I'd have liked to have seen the Joker where he was permawhite, and had the chealsea grin, and added the green hair-dye, and red/black makeup. That way, you get the grittier visual of Nolan's Joker, and the concepts behind permawhite (I'll explain those below).

By the way, if you'd like to see a more realistic interpretation of permawhite, more fully than you see in the picture above, have a look at this:

It's mean to be a corpse's hand in that picture, which I think fits the Joker perfectly: the complextion of a corpse. The skin isn't pure white, either; it's vainy and uneven, a bit darker and greyer in some places. If the Joker were to be permawhite in Nolan's world, that^ would probably be how it would look.

Well that is definitly a pretty bleached hand. The people I have seen with that had lighter spots on them. But the spots still had a deal of color to them. Ive seen many albino people too. They still had a good bit of color to them. But never the less I see your point. They could creativly fit the white skin in the movie if they wanted. I mean those guys are money. So I agree with you there. And that would be a cool line for him to say.

That's really the only difference between BB and B'89, because, on the realism scale, if you think about it, they're really about the same. The difference is, BB treated these ridiculous concepts in a serious, gritty manner, setting the film in a more familiar, truer-to-life cityscape. B'89 set itself in a more stylized world, whereby the things within are more stylized.
See, this is where I think you may be misinterpreting the character.

Are you mad? These two films are very differnt. BB had no ridiculous concepts. Everyone argues the microwave emitter. But there is no telling what technologies the military actually has. The technology exists so its at least, no more ridiculous then Perma. Heck the BB Bruce and B89 Bruce are totaly differnt. I saw little inner struggle in the B89 Bruce. Although I loved Keaton as Batman. BB Bruce Wayne is much more unstable.

The Joker is not a tragic figure, not at all. He is one of the few villains that does not regret his deformity. Instead, the Joker sees it as a gift. He views it as the Universe's great joke, and he's been given the opportunity to share the punchline with others.

As Dirt_Like_Me said, he doesn't have to be the Joker, he isn't forced to be the Joker, he gets to be the Joker. It's who he is. He didn't decide it, he was simply "born" that way.

The man he was before is of no importance. For all intents and purposes, they were never the same person. The Joker was simply "born" like this, thrust into being as the monster he is. Thus, he is an "absolute".

With makeup, I just find it harder to get the "absolute" angle, because he's a man who makes a choice to become another person. To me, an absolute does not invent itself; it just is.

Don't get me wrong. Its no misinterpretation. I wasn't arguing how the joker viewed it. And I never said anything about regret. My point, although prolly not the clearest, was more on the line of how audiences interpret him. Villians often have a chain of events that leads them to who they are. So often you can feel sympathy for them. Even B89 shows that. Joker was different after the accident. He wasn't loony before it. I mentioned "accepted burden" for that reason. Although the Joker embraces what happens with the acid its still imposed on him. You can wonder what he'd be like if it didn't happen in the first place. And that could be argued effectivly on both ends. I love the idea that he is choosing to dive deeper into his sickness. Not become a differnt person as you say. It would be no differnt than you wearing your favorite pair of jeans that you feel defines in you in some way. Thats embrassing. IF you see him choosing to be the way he is and that events in his life didnt lead to that, then its hard for a normal person to relate. There is no empathy, just an apparent madness. Hey take that guy who was obssessed with Bjork. Rodrigaz I think his name is. The guy was straight loony tunes. Theres a shot of him all painted up. You look at that and yer like, That dude is effin mad. Its all about the 3rd person perspective is what Im saying.

 

[FCEEVIPER]

What no voting pole? t:

Frankly, I don't care about the permawhite/bleach one way or the other. If that doesn't make me "a true Joker fan" so be it. I'm open to new interpretations, and this new twist Nolan has put on the Joker is a fresh new way of looking at the Crown Prince of Crime. We'll still have the comics, we'll still have B89 (hell, even Adam West's show for that matter), but just this once it's great to see a different take on the Joker's appearance. It's drastic, it's controversial, but where's the fun in playing it safe?

I agree.

 

[Drummerdude7]

Frankly, I don't care about the permawhite/bleach one way or the other. If that doesn't make me "a true Joker fan" so be it. I'm open to new interpretations, and this new twist Nolan has put on the Joker is a fresh new way of looking at the Crown Prince of Crime. We'll still have the comics, we'll still have B89 (hell, even Adam West's show for that matter), but just this once it's great to see a different take on the Joker's appearance. It's drastic, it's controversial, but where's the fun in playing it safe?

Well said Bubbat: