The Dark Knight To Bleach or Not to Bleach? That is the Question

[sad lieutenant]

This discussion needs to die in a big way. Seriously, can we not move any and all discussions about this "perma-white" nonsense to the non-spoiler/racist threads? Same with all talk of Harley Quinn, please?

 

[Joker8906]

to answer your question NO permawhite would be stupid in the Nolanverse the cop picture and the set reports from that scene make me smile seeing Heath as a non make up Joker will be awesome.

 

[Drummerdude7]

This discussion needs to die in a big way. Seriously, can we not move any and all discussions about this "perma-white" nonsense to the non-spoiler/racist threads? Same with all talk of Harley Quinn, please?

maybe you should read mr j's statement on the first page

the permawhite aspect is an important part of the character for some people, and if they want to debate about it they can, because Nolan's vision doesn't suit everyone

if you don't want to talk about it, don't come in the thread

 

[Mister J]

This discussion needs to die in a big way. Seriously, can we not move any and all discussions about this "perma-white" nonsense to the non-spoiler/racist threads? Same with all talk of Harley Quinn, please?

No, but you are free to go to another thread and allow those here to voice their opinions with others.

It's as if people don't read or somehow think their personal opinion serves at the gatekeeper for allowable discussion. The complaints of "power-hungry moderator" should be rolling in anytime now.

Seriously though, I don't remotely see how it's asking too much to have respect for other's opinions.

 

[branwen]

I don't know, I like this thread (and the old one) b/c it's not just about perma/bleaching or whatever, but is a touchstone to discussing deeper aspects of the character, and even deeper still, what makes a person tick? It's also interesting for me to read about people's various takes on what "canon" is. Lots of very fascinating, intelligent discussion going on here which I enjoy reading very much.

 

[rubyhope]

I must say I love nolan's look for joker because it gives it a more dark and down right disgusting feel. Also him without the make-up in the movie is a really good mix-up in my opinion

 

[Why Are You Crouching Spock?]

Yea. I'm very much liking the look of the joker, the picture without the makeup in the cop uniform is awesome, the picture of the joker as a nurse as awesome, along with previous pictures, no matter what Nolan does, fanboys will complain one way or the other I think.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

^ No matter what anyone does period, people are always going to complain it is the norm in our world, I for one tend to be able to ignore it pretty well.

 

[MAKIEVELLI]

Who ever else wants to use proper English.

Well in that case, it would be "whomever wants to use proper English." Check yourself before you check others, genius.

 

[Sidepocket]

I'm starting to wonder if you've ever read many comics. Batman mythology is filled with "ridiculous" but psychologically deep characters, and more importantly, it's not even remotely bound by realism. That's kinda why Batman even exists in the first place.


I ignored it the first time on purpose. It's clearly a poor delusional excuse to justify the bleached skin.

It's one thing to state that you don't like it. It's another to come up with an incredible stretch to discredit it's presence.

And what chemicals can automatically turn you into a clown?

The only way, and I mean the only way I could see it work is if chemicals unevenly bleached his skin, but like the Dark Knight Returns Joker he paints his lips red and dyes his hair green. The skin would most likely looking like he was infected with vitiligo, like Lee Thomas. (See his book "Turning White" for details.)

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/myfox/p...ale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1

I think they not only went for make up not only for the rot and smear visual, but I also think its just something they can show and not explain. Since it seems that Noland wants the Joker to be a force and not explain anything this could be part of the reason for it.

I mean if you see a man who is an uneven albino you want to wonder how the hell did his skin get like that and not telling it would be perceived as a flaw as if Noland never explained the Batsuit.

However if you see a guy who is obviously wearing make up you are just like "oh he just wears make up because he is f'ed up" and then commence viewing without the origins constantly bugging you.

Basically, I believe that if they put "chemical bath perma-white" in the movie it would have the same problems of not explaining how Venom in Spider-Man 3 knew everything about Peter Parker after he got the suit.

 

[Joker8906]

Dark is right not everyones gonna be happy.

 

[Crook]

And what chemicals can automatically turn you into a clown?

There are various skin bleaches that make your skin lighter or darker. And there's chloride, that turns your hair green.

It's not about turning someone into a clown, as much as it is altering one's appearance that it may resemble a clown. Big difference.

The only way, and I mean the only way I could see it work is if chemicals unevenly bleached his skin, but like the Dark Knight Returns Joker he paints his lips red and dyes his hair green. The skin would most likely looking like he was infected with vitiligo, like Lee Thomas. (See his book "Turning White" for details.)

And as I've already pointed out previously, most of us would've been just fine with some compromises to the entire concept, things that fit in line with what you just suggested.

Basically, I believe that if they put "chemical bath perma-white" in the movie it would have the same problems of not explaining how Venom in Spider-Man 3 knew everything about Peter Parker after he got the suit.

Those are completely unrelated things. One is a glaring PLOTHOLE, one is a subplot that is an option to use for the story, but isn't required.

 

[MAKIEVELLI]

It's funny to me how some people think that "because it's in the comics" is not a valid answer. Do you guys realize Batman is a comic book character? Disagreeing with us on the perma-white thing is one thing but discounting the comics like that is senseless and ignorant.

 

[The Guard]

PCP induces hallucinations. Nothing fear-inducing, and certainly nothing that will scare you to death. Impossible feat to accomplish? A bit.

There are chemicals out there that will send you into a serious panic attack and chemicals that will induce hallucinations. It it not outside the realm of possibility that such chemicals could be combined into a fear gas.

 

[Crook]

There are chemicals out there that will send you into a serious panic attack and chemicals that will induce hallucinations. It it not outside the realm of possibility that such chemicals could be combined into a fear gas.

I'm sure there are quite a few variables in there that would make it painstakingly difficult to manufacture such a thing. Especially on the scale used in BB.

 

[The Guard]

I'm sure there are quite a few variables in there that would make it painstakingly difficult to manufacture such a thing. Especially on the scale used in BB.

Maybe to a layman, but Crane is not generally portrayed as a layman. These things pretty much exist. You take the wrong depression medication and you will not only fall into a serious panic attack/anxiety phase, you may well hallucinate. And militaries have been utilizing chemical warfare of one kind of another for years.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

It's funny to me how some people think that "because it's in the comics" is not a valid answer. Do you guys realize Batman is a comic book character? Disagreeing with us on the perma-white thing is one thing but discounting the comics like that is senseless and ignorant.

Let them discount the comics. No one can tell you how to regard a certain character -- that is entirely up to you. It's fair to say that Nolan has created his own version of the character, and he hasn't remained 100% true to the comics. If people wish to view Nolan's Joker as the definitive Joker, which means being ignorant to the comic-book world, then fair enough. Not everyone is a comic-book lover.

Sure, these characters are entirely based on the comic-books, but it is up to the individual to decide how they wish to regard each interpretation.

 

[The Guard]

This obsession with "realism" has got to be toned down. Especially when dealing with a concept like Batman. Batman may be more realistic than most superheroes, but that's not saying much. If you are unable to suspend your disbelief for some of the mythology's elements, how do you suspend your disbelief for the character the mythology revolves around?

Permawhite skin is not an impossible concept. It is possible for people to bleach themselves, as evidenced by Michael Jackson. You can color your skin via plastic surgery, tattoing, or even skin dye, and it can be somewhat permanent.

Now, permawhite from a chemical bath may be a bit more absurd, but when you look at the kinds of things chemicals can do to skin or other material...it's just not that farfetched a concept.

Nolan used makeup. He chose to do so instead of using permawhite, just as he chose to use segmented armor instead of something a little more subtle. It's simply his choice, there is "This is why it HAS to be used in THIS franchise" argument that anyone can make. It is simply down to personal taste and a filmmaker's choice. This is a concept that any reasonable person should realize. That both "concepts" of The Joker's appearance can be rationalized in a fairly realistic manner.

The makeup is just that, makeup. It's used not because Nolan wanted to use something more realistic than permawhite, but because he felt The Joker should wear makeup. Odds are there is a reason for this, and I would imagine it's the metaphor behind it.

I like the idea of The Joker being permawhite with no explanation, or even via the chemicals. I like the idea of The Joker wearing makeup. I don't like the actual visuals they have chosen to employ in THE DARK KNIGHT. It just screams of a design team that needed The Joker to look "extreme" and couldn't be subtle about it on any level.

 

[Crook]

Maybe to a layman, but Crane is not generally portrayed as a layman.

I wasn't referring to a layman, quite the opposite. Since fear gas does not exist, and is a concept that has probably been thought of and failed to be reproduced, it's safe to say that it's probably quite hard to make it.

These things pretty much exist. You take the wrong depression medication and you will not only fall into a serious panic attack/anxiety phase, you may well hallucinate. And militaries have been utilizing chemical warfare of one kind of another for years.

And those 2 are completely independent of each other, not having much, or any relation. What does that have to do with fear gas, as one compound?

 

[The Guard]

Use your imagination. I've said it's not outside the realm of possibility, not that it is a concept that is widely utilized.

 

[Solidus]

I wasn't referring to a layman, quite the opposite. Since fear gas does not exist, and is a concept that has probably been thought of and failed to be reproduced, it's safe to say that it's probably quite hard to make it.

Fear gas does not exist? There are numerous medications that cause SEVERE anxiety. My cousin was on anti-anxiety meds, and some of the side effects can be even worse anxiety then before. And there are even more strong meds that cause worse anxiety in people. So if that is something the public has...the military I'm sure has access to chemicals that could cause hallucinations as well as severe anxiety. I don't see what is so unrealistic about fear gas, its not impossible.

 

[Mister J]

I agree with The Guard's earlier statement about the obsession with realism. There are far more fantastic elements in Begins than bleached white skin. Nolan made this choice, not because he lacked the imagination to incorporate another concept or because "it wouldn't fit", but rather because it lent itself better to what he wanted to create as an artist. It's nonsensical to perceive that this is the only choice that could have been made to represent the Joker's physical appearance or that such a decision is somehow above reproach simply because it's been selected for inclusion. Some Nolan defenders are apparently far more keen on 'realism' than the director has ever presented himself to be with this franchise.

 

[ActuallyRobin]

For a moment I thought this thread was titled 'to blend or not to blend'

 

[Solidus]

I agree with The Guard's earlier statement about the obsession with realism. There are far more fantastic elements in Begins than bleached white skin. Nolan made this choice, not because he lacked the imagination to incorporate another concept or because "it wouldn't fit", but rather because it lent itself better to what he wanted to create as an artist. It's nonsensical to perceive that this is the only choice that could have been made to represent the Joker's physical appearance or that such a decision is somehow above reproach simply because it's been selected for inclusion. Some Nolan defenders are apparently far more keen on 'realism' than the director has ever presented himself to be with this franchise.

Oh I agree, he did not do it for "realisms" sake. There is a reason he did it, artistic or other. But bleaching is not impossible at all. And that was not Nolan's reason for going with make-up. To me the make-up was definatley an artistic choice, to give him more of a "texture"

And though the Begins trilogy is aiming for "believability." The word realism is too....extreme. But the choice of make-up I believe has nothing to do with realism.

 

[The Guard]

Fear gas does not exist? There are numerous medications that cause SEVERE anxiety. My cousin was on anti-anxiety meds, and some of the side effects can be even worse anxiety then before. And there are even more strong meds that cause worse anxiety in people. So if that is something the public has...the military I'm sure has access to chemicals that could cause hallucinations as well as severe anxiety. I don't see what is so unrealistic about fear gas, its not impossible.

When I was working on the script for the fanfilm BATMAN: FEAR a few years ago (shameless plug, I hope it gets made soon), I heavily researched this. There is stuff out there. I don't know if it's gas, or powder, or what have you, but at some point, the bans on chemical warfare apparently specifically banned fear and trauma-inducing substances, which various militaries had been able to develop.