The Flash Tom Cavanaugh IS Harrison Wells/Eobard Thawne/Reverse-Flash

[Arach Knight]

It appears that my inferences have been proven false. I just read an interview with Andrew Kreisberg (executive producer on The Flash).

However, while he may be willing to kill those he's grown to love, Wells isn't necessarily evil. "He's just a guy trying to get home," Cavanagh says. "The starting point has always been he's a guy trying to get home. For me personally ... he doesn't lie. He doesn't lie to them, almost never lies."

It seems we did not have to wait until the end of the season to find out how wrong I am hahahahaha

 

[Batmannerism]

I could be wrong, and your conclusion certainly has merit. Thawne never states which version of Barry he had come to kill. It is possible that he followed Barry back to the past so that he could murder him in that time and be rid of his enemy. Of course, that would be overly elaborate as time travel would not be a neessary factor in killing adult Barry. If he is there to kill childhood Barry so as to prevent the Flash from ever existing, there is ine small bit of evidence to support that possibility but it does not explain motive: during Barry's tussle with Thawne we see young Barry carried away by a red blur. Adult Barry could have saved himself so that Thawne couldn't carry out his mission. Though, I always took it as adult Barry not wanting his childhood self to be present during his mother's murder. I suppose time will tell in a few episodes.

Dude, I suspect it is completely that way. It's pretty much the same situation as the time travel incident in the 3rd Harry Potter book (which incidentally was the only one I liked). How Harry is saved by a spell cast by a person he assumes was his father, only later to find out that it was actually a future version of himself who travelled back in time, and then casts the spell. I imagine that is how the events will play out in the Flash. That Barry ends up saving himself - and somehow his mother gets caught in the crossfire and killed.

(incidentally, if they do go for a Flashpoint type story, I hope they save it for season 2 - I like the way they're pulling out all the stops for season 1, but it would be nice to save a couple of the most epic Flash storylines for the future.
Oh man, what if they do the whole "Flash of Two Worlds" routine where Barry travels not to another time but to a parallell Earth with its own Flash..... we can only hope).

As far as being wrong about Thawne's lies, no sweat dude, this thread is all about theories. I'm basking in the warm glow of being right 100% on the RF so far.....because I've been wrong so many times about other predictions/theories I've had about other superhero tv shows/movies - it's a nice change. No doubt I'll make a big call soon, and be totally wrong, but who cares ? It's nice to get psyched up about a superhero tv show for a change, rather than watch it in the hopes it will rise to achieve at least mediocrity (which is how I felt about Smallville !)

cheers.

 

[Dark Raven]

I don't know if I'll ever stop calling him Harrison Wells now. Harrison is a much better name than Eobard.

Imagine if Indiana Jones/ Han Solo had been called Eobard. Eobard Ford.

 

[godisawesome]

I think they've based Wells and his RF after Waid's somewhat more emphatic and still no-nonsense version. Thawne's been played as a complete sociopath in the last few years, but when he showed up in Return of Barry Allen, his biggest flaw and driving motivation was his selfishness and desire to be perceived the way he wanted to be, and that latter half made him capable of impersonating Barry for an extended period.

Wells is still completely detached from compassion for other people and ruthless enough to kill, but if his goal is to return home, that still shows a certain rationality and sense of perspective. The overly obsessed RF we're used to would almost certainly focus on Barry to the exclusion of all reason.

I'm thinking that after he got his powers, this RF discovered that he was recorded as having died at Barry's hands, like he did in Return of Barry Allen, and his attack on young Barry was an attempt to circumvent that, with Nora being caught in the crossfire and only afterwards discovering the cost of arriving before Barry gets his powers. And there's a part of me that thinks that the particle accelerator actually had nothing to do with the Lightning strike and the chemicals hovering; they appear during the explosion, but also in the past when Nora dies. I think Wells made the particle accelerator and the resulting explosion in part to provide an excuse why Barry would seek him out.

And I think Wells may die at the end of this season, with someone pointing out that as a time traveler, even if his death is now assured, Barry still has a lifetime of fights with him left.

 

[Batmannerism]

I think they've based Wells and his RF after Waid's somewhat more emphatic and still no-nonsense version. Thawne's been played as a complete sociopath in the last few years, but when he showed up in Return of Barry Allen, his biggest flaw and driving motivation was his selfishness and desire to be perceived the way he wanted to be, and that latter half made him capable of impersonating Barry for an extended period.

Wells is still completely detached from compassion for other people and ruthless enough to kill, but if his goal is to return home, that still shows a certain rationality and sense of perspective. The overly obsessed RF we're used to would almost certainly focus on Barry to the exclusion of all reason.

I'm thinking that after he got his powers, this RF discovered that he was recorded as having died at Barry's hands, like he did in Return of Barry Allen, and his attack on young Barry was an attempt to circumvent that, with Nora being caught in the crossfire and only afterwards discovering the cost of arriving before Barry gets his powers. And there's a part of me that thinks that the particle accelerator actually had nothing to do with the Lightning strike and the chemicals hovering; they appear during the explosion, but also in the past when Nora dies. I think Wells made the particle accelerator and the resulting explosion in part to provide an excuse why Barry would seek him out.

And I think Wells may die at the end of this season, with someone pointing out that as a time traveler, even if his death is now assured, Barry still has a lifetime of fights with him left.

I think you're pretty close to the mark on most of that, particularly with Wells dying at Barry's hands (probably to protect Iris) - not so sure if I agree with you about the particle accelerator, I think he's become part of the causality chain, which means he had to make it, in order for there to be a Flash - as it also created plenty of other metahumans.

I do hope they incorporate ideas from Waid's terrific story -recently I found a used copy of the whole "Return of Barry Allen" story as a graphic novel. Made me a little sad that they changed Wally so much for the New 52 - he was a terrific Flash for many years, before they brought Barry back.

I totally agree that this is a very different characterization of the RF, from the comics -and to be honest I prefer it, because after a while the completely crazy and obsessed RF becomes the Joker with super-speed.
It's also made RF a lot scarier when he's in costume, because he is rational rather than just bonkers, and has a larger plan.

Cheers.

 

[Cain]

Why does it always have to be one or the other?

While I enjoy this version of Thawne to flat out say he's the Joker with super speed in the comics is highly inaccurate. If you actually read comics featuring the character outside of The Return of Barry Allen you'd actually know that.

Also frankly someone who has no issues using his powers to alter the time stream in anyway even to the point of influencing his own bloodline with his actions is just as scary as what we see here on this show. Both are unhinged and sociopathic in their actions and goals.

 

[Dark Raven]

When season 1 Wells says he's stuck in this time period, does that mean he can't travel forwards to his own time? What about travelling backwards in time though? Can he do that, since he is faster than Barry, and Barry was able to go back in time a full day?

And if he can travel back in time, could Wells not have gone back to a point before Cisco discovered his secret and prevent him from doing so, instead of killing him? Surely he must've realised afterwards that Barry and Caitlin would be onto him, and that he wouldn't be able to work with them anymore to help the Flash go even faster. And doesn't he also need Cisco's help as well for certain things? If he killed Cisco, that means he would end up alienating everyone else and would be isolated and forced to live out the rest of his days in the present time as a villain, which is not what he wants at the moment.

Maybe he killed Cisco in a moment of thoughtlessness, but if he did think it through, he might realise that it wouldn't really serve his purpose to carry out such an action.

And when Barry went back in time, did he simply change the timeline or did he create an alternate timeline, so that the one where Wells killed Cisco still exists somewhere? If that timeline does exist even though Barry has now gone back a day, what is that version of Wells supposed to do now that he's inadvertently put himself in that predicament? Also, has Barry disappeared from that timeline since he has now merged with the Barry from a day ago where the timeline in which Wells has not been discovered yet continues to operate?

And if Barry has disappeared from that timeline, is that also how he disappeared some time in the future, which is what Wells keeps seeing in his newspaper headlines? Did future Barry go back into the past and merge into his younger self?

 

[DrCosmic]

^Wells is faster than Barry was when he decided to kick it up a notch. There's no telling if Wells is faster than Barry after so much improvement on top of going even faster than he thought he could go for the tidal wave.

 

[Batmannerism]

Why does it always have to be one or the other?

While I enjoy this version of Thawne to flat out say he's the Joker with super speed in the comics is highly inaccurate. If you actually read comics featuring the character outside of The Return of Barry Allen you'd actually know that.

Really ? A comparison between Batman's nemesis (who's obsessed with him and pretty much exists to mess with him) and the Reverse Flash is highly innaccurate, if I haven't read comics outside of the Return of Barry Allen ?

Okay, so then I suppose this doesn't count.....

Or this...

Or perhaps this...

And of course the Reverse Flash murdering Iris and attempting to murder the Flash's next fiance ....

To me that looks a bit like a nemesis who is obsessed with the Flash and pretty much exists to mess with him - as such I'm more than willing to stand by my Joker comparison, although I will concede that RF is a lot less random in terms of who he kills. But of course you are free to form your own interpretation.

 

[Cain]

Semantics.

Reverse Flash/Professor Zoom

In his classic origin (The Flash vol.1 #139):

Eobard Thawne is a man with ambitions of becoming the greatest criminal of all time. He finds The Flash's speed suit in a time capsule. Takes it home sets up some lab equipment and taps into it's residual speed force wave patterns which he then amplifies so that he could have super speed whenever he wears it.

The Flash was his favorite character in history. Only because he admired his super speed. He hated him otherwise from the very beginning. Simply because The Flash stood for law and justice while Thawne would stand for the reverse.

In his most modern comic book origin (The Flash vol. 3 #8, Flashpoint: Reverse Flash)

Eobard Thawne is a student of science obsessed with finding out the secrets of time. Because he had a sibling he had to often care after thanks to the laws of his society he fell behind in his studies. He had applied to The Flash museum "to become a student of the mysterious energy source that once powered the proud legion of speedsters. The speed force."

He was rejected by The Flash museum. Without any authorization he hacked into the historical records that spoke on the speed force on his own. His kid brother who he had grown to despise had become a cop of their time. He found Eobard in the middle of his illegal acts and busted him. Later on one of the first things he did when he could finally use super speed was erase him out of existence.

Once he became an only child and redid his history he had more time to dedicate to his speed force and time obsession and studies. He dedicated his entire life to studying and earned a place among the scientific elite of The Flash museum.

He became the ultimate authority on The Flash. Then when he was beaten to the punch in finding the secrets of the speed force he took out the professor responsible for that and became the only authority on the secrets of the speed force afterward.

He finds Barry Allen's speed suit in a time capsule and then syphons residual speed force energy and recreates the accident that created The Flash. Becoming The Flash of the 25th Century.

He was someone that as The Flash of the 25th Century would do things like push a girl off a rooftop with superspeed just to "rescue her" from falling. He eventually meets and ends up despising Barry Allen who after a trip to the 25th century and seeing what Thawne was really about stopped him and handed him over to the authorities. As you can see here in this spoiler box:

Spoiler

That's when he declared revenge in reverse. However that is just another excuse for what was already pre-existing vile behavior.

When a girl rejected his advances in the past he went back in time after becoming a speedster and made her catatonic. He's a guy who is manipulative and cold. Calculating and very conniving. He's egomaniacal and sociopathic does whatever it takes to accompish his own goals and complete his selfish agenda by any means.

Those are themes replicated in his counterpart in this TV adaptation. Key word is themes so again just because the details are presented differently he's no less layered than his Dr. Wells incarnation. It's an adaptation doing what it's supposed to do remixing the fundamentals of a character and presenting them in a way that fits their own narrative.

The Joker

This is a man obsessed with crime and chaos much the same way Batman is obsessed with justice and order. He is not so much obsessed with Batman as he is with the mind games he plays with him. However all that stems from his true obsessions: crime and disorder.

In his more definitive origins whether it's Bill Finger's golden age one from Detective Comics vol. 1 #168 or his more recent one in Scott Snyder's previous Batman arc (Zero Year) he is already a man presented as being fascinated with theatricality, disorder and crime before Batman he even comes across Batman.

Yes once he finally meets Batman he ends up becoming amused and intrigued by him. However it's not to the point that he couldn't exist without him in any incarnation or will always want to keep him around for his enjoyment.

Matter of fact one of the conceits of the most recent Joker story going on right now (Endgame) is that he is tired of wasting time toying around with Batman. He's no longer amused and wants to nip their relationship in the bud once and for all.

He's a wildcard and malleable. One minute he could think Batman is dead and become sane or pose as a criminal specialist (Oberon Sexton). Or he could continue being what he is well into the future with or without a Batman to be his foil. He is random and unpredictable and very chaotic like that.

So looking at both characters fundamentally that way there is no way they could be interchangeable. Even the way the execute their menace is different let alone their entire psychology.

So to try to group them together just because they're both "obsessed" even though obsession itself is a very multifaceted concept that won't apply to 2 individuals in the same way is in my opinion selling the characters a bit short.

They have more depth than that.

 

[jrmtz543]

A question that's been bothering me:

Why did Wells kill Stagg as himself rather than the RF? Being Wells allowed him to be recorded / photographed entering the office. He could've killed Stagg quickly as RF without being seen and thereby avoiding the reporter asking questions.

 

[Batmannerism]

Semantics.

Reverse Flash/Professor Zoom

In his classic origin (The Flash vol.1 #139):

Eobard Thawne is a man with ambitions of becoming the greatest criminal of all time. He finds The Flash's speed suit in a time capsule. Takes it home sets up some lab equipment and taps into it's residual speed force wave patterns which he then amplifies so that he could have super speed whenever he wears it.

The Flash was his favorite character in history. Only because he admired his super speed. He hated him otherwise from the very beginning. Simply because The Flash stood for law and justice while Thawne would stand for the reverse.

In his most modern comic book origin (The Flash vol. 3 #8, Flashpoint: Reverse Flash)

Eobard Thawne is a student of science obsessed with finding out the secrets of time. Because he had a sibling he had to often care after thanks to the laws of his society he fell behind in his studies. He had applied to The Flash museum "to become a student of the mysterious energy source that once powered the proud legion of speedsters. The speed force."

He was rejected by The Flash museum. Without any authorization he hacked into the historical records that spoke on the speed force on his own. His kid brother who he had grown to despise had become a cop of their time. He found Eobard in the middle of his illegal acts and busted him. Later on one of the first things he did when he could finally use super speed was erase him out of existence.

Once he became an only child and redid his history he had more time to dedicate to his speed force and time obsession and studies. He dedicated his entire life to studying and earned a place among the scientific elite of The Flash museum.

He became the ultimate authority on The Flash. Then when he was beaten to the punch in finding the secrets of the speed force he took out the professor responsible for that and became the only authority on the secrets of the speed force afterward.

He finds Barry Allen's speed suit in a time capsule and then syphons residual speed force energy and recreates the accident that created The Flash. Becoming The Flash of the 25th Century.

He was someone that as The Flash of the 25th Century would do things like push a girl off a rooftop with superspeed just to "rescue her" from falling. He eventually meets and ends up despising Barry Allen who after a trip to the 25th century and seeing what Thawne was really about stopped him and handed him over to the authorities. As you can see here in this spoiler box:

Spoiler

That's when he declared revenge in reverse. However that is just another excuse for what was already pre-existing vile behavior.

When a girl rejected his advances in the past he went back in time after becoming a speedster and made her catatonic. He's a guy who is manipulative and cold. Calculating and very conniving. He's egomaniacal and sociopathic does whatever it takes to accompish his own goals and complete his selfish agenda by any means.

Those are themes replicated in his counterpart in this TV adaptation. Key word is themes so again just because the details are presented differently he's no less layered than his Dr. Wells incarnation. It's an adaptation doing what it's supposed to do remixing the fundamentals of a character and presenting them in a way that fits their own narrative.

The Joker

This is a man obsessed with crime and chaos much the same way Batman is obsessed with justice and order. He is not so much obsessed with Batman as he is with the mind games he plays with him. However all that stems from his true obsessions: crime and disorder.

In his more definitive origins whether it's Bill Finger's golden age one from Detective Comics vol. 1 #168 or his more recent one in Scott Snyder's previous Batman arc (Zero Year) he is already a man presented as being fascinated with theatricality, disorder and crime before Batman he even comes across Batman.

Yes once he finally meets Batman he ends up becoming amused and intrigued by him. However it's not to the point that he couldn't exist without him in any incarnation or will always want to keep him around for his enjoyment.

Matter of fact one of the conceits of the most recent Joker story going on right now (Endgame) is that he is tired of wasting time toying around with Batman. He's no longer amused and wants to nip their relationship in the bud once and for all.

He's a wildcard and malleable. One minute he could think Batman is dead and become sane or pose as a criminal specialist (Oberon Sexton). Or he could continue being what he is well into the future with or without a Batman to be his foil. He is random and unpredictable and very chaotic like that.

So looking at both characters fundamentally that way there is no way they could be interchangeable. Even the way the execute their menace is different let alone their entire psychology.

So to try to group them together just because they're both "obsessed" even though obsession itself is a very multifaceted concept that won't apply to 2 individuals in the same way is in my opinion selling the characters a bit short.

They have more depth than that.

Okay, if I suggested they were interchangable then I misrepresented myself - you're right you can't literally interchange RF and Joker, anymore than you could the Joker and Bizarro. And of course they're going to have a different methodology, that's kind of just stating the obvious - one relies on firearms, knives and a devious twisted cunning, whereas the other relies on incredibly versatile and subtle uses of super-speed which stretch the imagination. Both are still kind of petty though, despite all that .

I think it would be hard to find 2 villains whose very raison d'etre is so intrinsically connected to their heroic nemesis - even Lex Luthor and Sinestro have an existence that is separate from their own arch enemies - but it doesn't really seem like the Joker or RF do - and your re-telling of Thawne's origin kind actually kind of reinforces that because everything Thawne does is because of the Flash - if the Flash had never existed, then neither would RF (although I have to qualify that with what happened in Flashpoint).

I'll be honest that I haven't kept up with the Joker's latest comings and goings, and if he is tiring of his endless game with Batman well that might be a good thing.

However, I do remember this.

And the earlier panel (sorry the image won't load at present) from that story in which the Joker tells Batman that he doesn't hate him because he's crazy, he's crazy because he hates Batman - and that once Batman is dead he'll be happy to stare at the wall and drool for the rest of his days.

It's true that they manifest their obsession in different ways, but I still think it's a valid comparison, and I'm not selling either character short.

If I'd compared RF to Luthor, well that wouldn't work, Luthor sees Superman as an obstacle to his bigger plans. But RF, the only plans he seems to have either involve the Flash or being the Flash (which by definition involves the Flash) or getting rid of the Flash and to me that sounds a lot like the Joker.

What's nice about the TV version of Thawne is that so far he appears to view Barry as a means to an end, rather than an end - although we don't know his whole story yet, and specifically why he travelled back in time to kill Barry ( as that would appear to pretty much negate Thawne's RF career). I also prefer the TV version of Thawne as he seems to have at least some redeeming features, whereas RF in the comics is almost utterly detestable.

So if I gave the impression that they're interchangable, I freely admit that's obviously incorrect.

However, I maintain that an obsession-based comparison between RF and the Joker is valid. Sure they're going to have some differences but the key similarity is that without their nemeses, they wouldn't be up to much.

As I mentioned above, while it is fair to say that Lex Luthor is obsessed with destroying Superman, that obsession pales in comparison to either the Joker's or RF's both in intensity and in the length that they will go to harm/punish/mess with the objects of their obsession. Along those lines I maintain they are more than comparable.

While I respect your interpretation, I see things differently.

 

[Arach Knight]

I don't consider any form of Thawne to be a Joker substitute. The Joker doesn't have a monopoly on obsession. The Joker and Batman are two people that are on the same spectrum, just on opposite ends. Both characters are more or less cuckoo for cocoa puffs and have become absorbed by their respective id. As such, they have a rather symbiotic relationship, and the Joker is more willing to admit to this fact than The Batman is.

Conversely, Thawne is pretty much depicted as being the ultimate stalker. There is superficial similarity, but the relationship dynamic is entirely different. Thawne is not the same as Barry by any measure. Thawne has obsessed with being Barry's replacement, and later obsessed with tormenting Barry and taking revenge. I'd say Thawne's relationship to the Flash has more in common with Mr. Incredible and Syndrome than it does with Batman and The Joker.

 

[Batmannerism]

I don't consider any form of Thawne to be a Joker substitute. The Joker doesn't have a monopoly on obsession. The Joker and Batman are two people that are on the same spectrum, just on opposite ends. Both characters are more or less cuckoo for cocoa puffs and have become absorbed by their respective id. As such, they have a rather symbiotic relationship, and the Joker is more willing to admit to this fact than The Batman is.

Conversely, Thawne is pretty much depicted as being the ultimate stalker. There is superficial similarity, but the relationship dynamic is entirely different. Thawne is not the same as Barry by any measure. Thawne has obsessed with being Barry's replacement, and later obsessed with tormenting Barry and taking revenge. I'd say Thawne's relationship to the Flash has more in common with Mr. Incredible and Syndrome than it does with Batman and The Joker.

Agree to disagree, symbiosis suggests Batman needs the Joker - which i suggest he doesnt- whereas the Joker seems to need Batman - he's a parasite, which is how Superman beat him in the Emperor Joker story.

I would agree that comic book Thawne is a stalker, and I'm hoping tv Thawne is more than that. I will also agree that Flash and Thawne's relationship is a bit different to the Batman-Joker relationship (for the obvious reason that they arent Batman and the Joker). The Mr I /Syndrome isnt a bad comparison, although your comment about being opposite ends of a spectrum....well you dont get any further away from the flash than the Reverse Flash, who is his opposite in name and draws his power from the antithesis of Barry's source - and most importantly he is a complete ass hole whereas Barry is one of the nicest guys in the world.

That's how I see it, but luckily the world and this thread are clearly big enough for everyone's point of view.

 

[Brian Braddock]

A question that's been bothering me:

Why did Wells kill Stagg as himself rather than the RF? Being Wells allowed him to be recorded / photographed entering the office. He could've killed Stagg quickly as RF without being seen and thereby avoiding the reporter asking questions.

My thinking is that Wells didnt yet have the Tachyon device so although he could [obviously] walk he didnt yet have his super-speed?

 

[Nathan]

But he fought Barry as RF before he actually got his hands on the Tachyon device. I think he probably just wanted to conserve his energies. Even now that he has the Tachyon device, it's not a permanent solution for him to keep his speed.

 

[Arach Knight]

Agree to disagree, symbiosis suggests Batman needs the Joker - which i suggest he doesnt- whereas the Joker seems to need Batman - he's a parasite, which is how Superman beat him in the Emperor Joker story.

Parasitism is a form of symbiosis. Mutual benefit is not necessary in order to classify a relationship as symbiotic. Symbiosis describes long term interaction between diverse organisms that are living together. The subcategories of symbiosis are mutualism, commenalism and parasitism.

 

[Grommers]

I find it interesting - I do compare him to the joker, but not in the way that I feel a lot of people assume.

I look at him as being the flash's most iconic villain, the ying to his yang. Much like the Joker is too batman.

They are different characters, with much different personalities and drives, and characteristics, but in terms of being the number 1 villain RF sticks out with Grodd too me being a close #2, followed by the rogues gallery.

I know Batmans a little different since he's got a lot of #2s as far as I'm concerned.


Obviously their are tons of time travel issues in general, and it feels like Wells Really respects time travel given how badly his got screwed up. What are the chances we hear about Bart Allen?

 

[Batmannerism]

Parasitism is a form of symbiosis. Mutual benefit is not necessary in order to classify a relationship as symbiotic. Symbiosis describes long term interaction between diverse organisms that are living together. The subcategories of symbiosis are mutualism, commenalism and parasitism.

I stand corrected ! Biology isn't my area of expertise On that definition both RF/Flash and Joker/Batman have symbiotic relationships ( parasitic ones).

I suppose the TV show has changed the natured of the relationship between Flash and RF - in the comics the RF is really just a parasite, but in the TV show there's a very strong element of mutuality to their relationship - I like the way that they were friends....before they become enemies, rather than the comic version, where RF is essentially a jerk from day one. Makes the inevitable betrayal a bigger deal, and the subsequent battles have a little more meaning, IMO.

 

[just one thing]

I stand corrected ! Biology isn't my area of expertise On that definition both RF/Flash and Joker/Batman have symbiotic relationships ( parasitic ones).

I suppose the TV show has changed the natured of the relationship between Flash and RF - in the comics the RF is really just a parasite, but in the TV show there's a very strong element of mutuality to their relationship - I like the way that they were friends....before they become enemies, rather than the comic version, where RF is essentially a jerk from day one. Makes the inevitable betrayal a bigger deal, and the subsequent battles have a little more meaning, IMO.

Matter of perception though, one of them is a time traveler. This isn't dr wells starting point but a bit of a head recker for barry alright.

 

[jrmtz543]

But he fought Barry as RF before he actually got his hands on the Tachyon device. I think he probably just wanted to conserve his energies. Even now that he has the Tachyon device, it's not a permanent solution for him to keep his speed.

Good point. I still find it odd, though. Even if his powers were fluctuating or completely gone at that point, he could've walked into the office wearing a mask to prevent identification, then removed it to talk to and kill Stagg. Instead he wheeled in and let himself be photographed. It's sloppy for someone so cunning.

 

[Nathan]

He probably assumed that no one would actually suspect the one guy in the wheelchair.

 

[Lilbaz]

Sorry not a reader of the comics so this might be obvious. Why does the Reverse Flash go back to when Allen is a boy? If it was not to kill Barry's mum and she was an accident then was he there to kill Barry? But wouldn't that prevent him from creating the speedforce in the first place meaning that he wouldn't be able to come back. And then why is he so worried about keeping the future timeline secure (the paper).

Or maybe he didn't want to kill young Barry or his mum, but it was the fight that caused them to travel back in time and it was simply an accident that Barry's mum was killed. Wouldn't this mean that all Barry would have to do to save his mother is simply not fight the reverse flash? Although it will be another version of Wells that we haven't seen yet. A younger Wells. He could fight and kill the current Wells without any consequences.

Timetravel gives me a headache.

 

[Arach Knight]

I stand corrected ! Biology isn't my area of expertise On that definition both RF/Flash and Joker/Batman have symbiotic relationships ( parasitic ones).

I suppose the TV show has changed the natured of the relationship between Flash and RF - in the comics the RF is really just a parasite, but in the TV show there's a very strong element of mutuality to their relationship - I like the way that they were friends....before they become enemies, rather than the comic version, where RF is essentially a jerk from day one. Makes the inevitable betrayal a bigger deal, and the subsequent battles have a little more meaning, IMO.

I agree on both counts. Thawne is very much a parasite, literally so if you consider how his powers first worked, or even his need for the tachyon device in the show.

Also, the development of Wells as a "frienemy" does indeed lend itself to a bigger payoff when the situational irony comes to an end. Especially with poor Cisco.

As for the symbiotic relationship angle, what I was attempting to convey was that even with Joker being a parasite, he and Batman share a common personality type that allows them to thrive off of one another. They are both trying to disprove the other person's philosophy on life and meaning. Both characters are clinically certifiable, but Batman had direction and a mentor (Alfred), where as the Joker only ever seems to have himself. TheThae Thawne/Barry relationahip always seemed far more one sided to me, but it would also be symbiotic, just in a different manner.

 

[Batmannerism]

I agree on both counts. Thawne is very much a parasite, literally so if you consider how his powers first worked, or even his need for the tachyon device in the show.

Also, the development of Wells as a "frienemy" does indeed lend itself to a bigger payoff when the situational irony comes to an end. Especially with poor Cisco.

As for the symbiotic relationship angle, what I was attempting to convey was that even with Joker being a parasite, he and Batman share a common personality type that allows them to thrive off of one another. They are both trying to disprove the other person's philosophy on life and meaning. Both characters are clinically certifiable, but Batman had direction and a mentor (Alfred), where as the Joker only ever seems to have himself. TheThae Thawne/Barry relationahip always seemed far more one sided to me, but it would also be symbiotic, just in a different manner.

Hmmmmm..... not sure if I agree with you that Batman and the Joker have the same personality type. I don't see the Batman being anywhere as extreme as the Joker ....although that depends on the writer, Frank Miller's Batman is arguably more extreme than the Joker in some respects. I still go with Superman's statement (in Emperor Joker) that while Batman defines Joker's universe, the Joker is just an annoyance to Batman.

Where the Joker has been almost universally portrayed in the last few decades as a homicidal psychopath, who is only obsessed with messing with Batman - Batman's personality has fluctuated a bit in its intensity.
I'm not sure if Batman really is completely crazy.... but psychology isn't my area of expertise either, so I'm not remotely qualified to say that.
Might just have to agree to disagree on that one.

As for Barry/Thawne. True, even in the comics they aren't polar opposites although I always thought that Thawne's pettiness and vindictiveness was a mirror image distortion of Barry's generosity, kindness and general all-round good-guy-ness. I mean, the guy sacrificed his life (in 1985) to save the universe(s). But otherwise their goals are very different.

However, your previous symbiosis comment makes total sense -as without Barry, Thawne would just be a bitter jerk in the 25th century, but because of his obsession with Barry he's become a bitter jerk and a menace to the entire space-time continuum.

Looking forward to more "Frienemy action " from Thawne on the tv show.

Cheers.