The Flash The Flash season 2 episode 11 "The Reverse Flash Returns"

[Batmannerism]

Okay, no more *****ing about the explanation for RF's return from me. Now on to the substantive merits of the episode.

Probably the best part of the episode was the tete a tete between Barry and Thawne - nicely drawn from the Once and Future Flash classic storyline from the early 90's (my favourite Flash story of all time).

The Patty/Barry stuff I've never really found particularly convincing - she was a better love interest than Iris was last season, but still not great.

Cavanagh was definitely the best part of the episode.

I thought Barry having to choose his friend over keeping his arch-foe on ice was reasonably well done ( a little contrived, but hey most comic book plots are).

Probably the best RF episode is still "The Man in the Yellow Suit" s1 ep 9.

Still Letscher was a good RF, so I'm hoping we'll see him again this season - and I didn't mind that Barry kicked his ash, nice to see the shoe on the other foot.


All in all I give this week's show an 8/10.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Spoiler

Dude, I think your other comment about not thinking too much about the way time travel has been used in this show is the right way to go.




Let's be honest here, the explanations don't make sense - because when Eddie killed himself it's not that Eobard didn't exist anymore, it's that he NEVER existed ab initio, which pretty much meant that everything that happened in season 1, didn't happen !

This was a good try....



except of course that's exactly what happens to Thawne when Eddie kills himself.

Anyway, I think it's okay to admit that the writers have made a mess - I mean, it's a show about a guy who can supposedly move as fast as light, which is ridiculous on the face of it. But if we can let that go, well the time travel stuff we just have to shrug off.

It's a bit disappointing, because I think that there are plenty of ways the writers, with a little more thought, could have made time travel not only work consistently and in a way that makes sense (currently it seems to work whatever way suits the plot).

I mean, the first time Barry travels back in time, there's no past Barry. Yet when he travels back to save his mom, he's also there fighting RF ?

Really, the writers should watch some Dr Who, as those writers manage to do time travel in a reasonably consistent way.


Just shrugging and enjoying the show otherwise is the only way I can see forward. I'm looking forward to Flash starting up again down here, and I'll just grit my teeth and ignore the time travel stuff and enjoy the stuff that I usually do - especially Cisco's silliness.

Exactly.
I don't watch Doctor Who, so I'll just take your word for it.

 

[The Caped Knight]

This episode should've been the season premiere return episode, it hit all the right notes as opposed to potential energy which was more of a miss than a hit.

I loved all the scenes with tom cavanagh and carlos valdes their comedic interaction with each other is so on point it continues to be the strongest aspects of the series from since Season 1 as Cisco & Dr. Wells, although it in the first season it was played more father and son, this season is more Nephew and Uncle banter.

I love how The Flash just took on Reverse Flash and kicked the ever-loving crap outta him for all the pain and suffering he caused him, even if it wasn't the same version of Thawne from season one.

Name drop red-hearring I DON'T THINK SO!!!! I called it from the beginning of season 2 that tptb would have either Cavanagh or Sears revealed to be in fact HUNTER ZOLOMAN aka ZOOOM!!!!!

As for Patty and Barry split, it was inevitable Barry is destined to end up with Iris no matter what.

 

[Avenging Angel]

Barry isn't destined for Iris. There are no hints of that in the show so far that proves this.

 

[The Caped Knight]

Barry isn't destined for Iris. There are no hints of that in the show so far that proves this.

ah yeah the Newspaper from the future for starters their married, second the mythology and even the producers said he would eventually.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

Liked the episode. The explanation for the Reverse Flash showing up there sort of made sense, although I dont have enough energy right now to work through the entire thought experiment that Wells drew up. My issues were more with what was going to happen had he not been allowed to go back to his time.

Wouldn't Sisco just lose his powers if Rev Flash was unable to go back to the future? Wasnt that really his only impact on him from the particle accelerator? Why would he not exist? Would Sisco have originally died for some other reason if Thawne doesnt go back in time? And why wouldnt literally everything else that was caused by Thawne going back to kill Barry's mom have come undone as well?

 

[BestGirl]

^I can only assume that Barry's mom's death somehow brought Cisco into existence. It must be the butterfly effect playing out.

Anyway, it was a really good episode, definitely better than last week's dud. It was especially nice watching Barry beat up on RF. I still don't get why he has to break up with Patty, though. She's in no less danger not knowing the Flash's identity than she is knowing. I mean, if he tells her the truth it's not like a sign will be lit up over her head saying, "Kidnap me!" She's already been kidnapped once, for God's sake.

Also, Wally's character inconsistency is still bugging me. Now why's he mad at his mom?

 

[Wyrminarrd]

I thought that Cisco's vibe power just made him more susceptible to alterations in the time line and thus he was the first to start to fade out of existence as their time line started to become impossible. If Thawne hadn't ever gone back to the future then they all would have ceased to be, at least in the present form.

 

[Avenging Angel]

ah yeah the Newspaper from the future for starters their married, second the mythology and even the producers said he would eventually.

The producers lie all the time. The byline was erased due to Eddie's sacrifice. There's no Iris West-Allen anymore. The writers have changed a lot of things from canon. Joe West backstory being one of them. Many things were changed.

 

[Golgo-13]

The time-line that Wells explained made no sense what's so ever. They need to get Doc Brown in there and his chalk board to break it down for us, because i'm genuinely confused!

 

[Avenging Angel]

I was re-watching it again going eh? Doc Brown might improve it somewhat, but they can't copy/paste everything from Back to the Future, can they?

 

[metaphysician]

They didn't down grade RF, Barry has upped his game past RF younger self.

Well, they probably *did* downgrade him, but this only makes sense: its a younger, less experienced Thawne. He's got at least a few major encounters in his timeline before the big climactic fight when he tries to kill Baby Barry, possibly entire years.

 

[Quinnsanity]

Agree with the people who were disappointed about RF's origin. Would've been so much cooler to meet Thawne as a Flash fan boy, for Barry himself to be responsible for him turning into the RF and revealing his destiny, maybe even fighting Zoom together first. It just feels like they skipped over what could have been some GREAT development.

There is something that's kind of bugging me though, and it might explain some plot holes. Thawne didn't know what time period Barry was from. How is that possible? How could he have recreated his speed, how could he have had that newspaper from 2024, how could he have developed any sort of interest in the Flash in the first place if he didn't know when he was from? And then a solution hit me. Barry invented Gideon, Gideon says so itself. It seems as though most of Thawne's knowledge of the timeline comes from Gideon. Maybe Barry made Gideon specifically to throw off Thawne as a means of preserving the timeline. Maybe there really is no timeline in which the particle accelerator was built in 2020, but Barry programmed Gideon to tell Thawne that because he knew that that's what Thawne believed. Maybe the date on the newspaper is wrong as well. I could go on and on. But it just seems odd to me that Thawne wouldn't know what time period the Flash came from... unless the Flash himself had something to do with that. I think there's an explanation in here somewhere, maybe historical records being destroyed as part of Vandal Savage's assault on the world, with Gideon being the only surviving tool Thawne could've used to learn. I don't think I've hit the nail on the head with the details here, but I think there's a semblance of an explanation in here.

 

[metaphysician]

All speedsters that have ruptured the temporal barrier are immune to time paradoxes because at some point or other they have traveled through the speed force.

Basically, if you ever go through that 'time tunnel' that Barry runs through when he time travels you can not be erased from the timeline.

Or at least, you can't *entirely* be erased. It seems like if you're physically located in the same timeline-segment as a paradox inducing event, you can be screwed. It just doesn't propagate across to discontinuous segments.

Hmm. Maybe this is part of why Future!Barry departed from the site of his origin story: paradox was building and he needed to put the Speed Force between him and it, lest he be erased.

 

[metaphysician]

Unless they (the producers) create some kind of situation that involves another time paradox in the future, I think it's safe to say that this could have been the final episode featuring the Reverse Flash.

And given on how it's not everyday that they get to bring in the likes of the original RF, I was hoping for a more epic showdown between them in this episode. If anything, compared to other episodes, I feel like the limited budget really felt apparent in this episode given on how many effects shots of the Flash/RF they reused here.

I disagree. I'm about 90% certain this is the beginning of a sequence of events called "The Story of Eobard Thawne, Out Of Order." Maybe a few times a season, Barry is going to encounter Thawne, and every encounter is going to be ideologically painful for Barry. At the very least, I expect we'll have "The Flash first fights Thawne" and "The final battle where his mother dies". There could be any number of extra encounters beyond that. After all, they were archnemeses.

 

[Quinnsanity]

Also: just realized that I'm like 90% sure RF has something to do with Zoom now. In Barry's fight with Zoom there was this really out of place line where Barry goes "you want to be a hero? You want to be me," or something to that effect, and it just felt really weird and narcissistic at the time. Then RF basically says "I wanted to be a hero, I wanted to be you." That doesn't feel coincidental to me.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

I disagree. I'm about 90% certain this is the beginning of a sequence of events called "The Story of Eobard Thawne, Out Of Order." Maybe a few times a season, Barry is going to encounter Thawne, and every encounter is going to be ideologically painful for Barry. At the very least, I expect we'll have "The Flash first fights Thawne" and "The final battle where his mother dies". There could be any number of extra encounters beyond that. After all, they were archnemeses.

I agree. I think Barry's 'last' meeting with Thawne will be Thawne's 'first' meeting with Barry where he crushes his fanboy dreams. I suspect that everytime these two meet going forward Barry will get stronger due to experience and Thawne will get weaker due to inexperience and in turn Barry will push Thawne to get stronger to get his revenge. Basically the same thing he did for Barry in season one. These two are like an ouroboros, dichotomy, enantiomorph, ect ect.

 

[godisawesome]

I'm kind of hoping that we get to see Wally present for Eobard's descent into hatred and loathing, just because I loved the Mark Waid idea of making Wally fight arguably his predecessor's greatest nemesis to finally get out of Barry's shadow while also honoring the mantle by beating down this actual usurper.

Like, if I could plot out the way we'd see Wally, Barry, and Eobard all become the legends we expect them to be, here's how I'd want to do it:

-Wally gets super speed at the end of this season, but as a result of time travel shenanigans, so after he does act as Barry's partner for a while next season, Rip Hinter recruits him for his team in next year's LOT season. This way, we can have concurrent Flashes who can stand on their own and, using time travel and time skips, get a Wally who's Barry's equal in experience (and possibly different powers.)
-Wally, who now respects and kind of reveres Barry, ends up in a future timeline where Eobard is impersonating Barry. When Eobard inevitably slips up, Wally figures out who he is, and we get a pretty bitter fight between a Wally and Eobard who are both still learning.
-Barry ends up at the fight as well. We end up having Eobard learning how horrible his future is from Wally, while Barry crushes him in combat, but has to spare him for the timeline's sake.




- Oh, and since I can't help myself, I'd have Eobard put Wally on the ropes when Barry shows up by sneaking into the same Flahs museum he discovered who he was in and releasing a stasis frozen Hunter Zoloman.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

There is something that's kind of bugging me though, and it might explain some plot holes. Thawne didn't know what time period Barry was from. How is that possible? How could he have recreated his speed, how could he have had that newspaper from 2024, how could he have developed any sort of interest in the Flash in the first place if he didn't know when he was from? And then a solution hit me. Barry invented Gideon, Gideon says so itself. It seems as though most of Thawne's knowledge of the timeline comes from Gideon. Maybe Barry made Gideon specifically to throw off Thawne as a means of preserving the timeline. Maybe there really is no timeline in which the particle accelerator was built in 2020, but Barry programmed Gideon to tell Thawne that because he knew that that's what Thawne believed. Maybe the date on the newspaper is wrong as well. I could go on and on. But it just seems odd to me that Thawne wouldn't know what time period the Flash came from... unless the Flash himself had something to do with that. I think there's an explanation in here somewhere, maybe historical records being destroyed as part of Vandal Savage's assault on the world, with Gideon being the only surviving tool Thawne could've used to learn. I don't think I've hit the nail on the head with the details here, but I think there's a semblance of an explanation in here.

The more I thought about it, the more I come to the conclusion that the show did a poor job of explaining it but since Barry can time travel he could've theoretically existed at any point in time without necessarily originating there. So it's not like Rev Flash didnt know about the emergence of the Flash in 2015 from the media of the time, he just wasnt sure he was originally from that period of time.

Although yes, it would've been the sensible place to start searching for him. Thawne doesn't know the Flash is Barry Allen yet so it's not like he can start searching for birth certificates, etc. This seems like something he only finds out by virtue of dumb luck by running into Flash when he accidentally winds up in present day which is odd given how intelligent he is. Then again in the original timeline Flash doesnt come into existence until somewhat later, it's only when Thawne goes back to kill Barry in 2005(?) that he has to alter history to create the Flash sooner.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

Or at least, you can't *entirely* be erased. It seems like if you're physically located in the same timeline-segment as a paradox inducing event, you can be screwed. It just doesn't propagate across to discontinuous segments.

Hmm. Maybe this is part of why Future!Barry departed from the site of his origin story: paradox was building and he needed to put the Speed Force between him and it, lest he be erased.

Yeah I like this. It makes time paradoxes into a menacing force of nature that Barry should always be wary of.

 

[Mikelus]

^I can only assume that Barry's mom's death somehow brought Cisco into existence. It must be the butterfly effect playing out.

Anyway, it was a really good episode, definitely better than last week's dud. It was especially nice watching Barry beat up on RF. I still don't get why he has to break up with Patty, though. She's in no less danger not knowing the Flash's identity than she is knowing. I mean, if he tells her the truth it's not like a sign will be lit up over her head saying, "Kidnap me!" She's already been kidnapped once, for God's sake.

Also, Wally's character inconsistency is still bugging me. Now why's he mad at his mom?

Indeed, despite being a better episode than the last two, there were a couple of very annoying issues. The whole break up was very Smallvillesque, maybe even worse, because Lana didn't even know Clark's secret, here Patty knows and just because Barry didn't tell her, she leaves.
With Barry's superspeed, a long distance relationship is easier to handle, it was very poorly written and a terrible way to end Patty's arc. On Wally, his introduction has been terrible so far, Young Justice did a brilliant job with the character, here is dull and Keiynan Lonsdale's performance is not helping either, too wooden. Hopefully, they will turn it around before the season is over.

People whining about the time travel stuff are funny. Logic has never been the strong point of this show, Barry could defeat anyone in a couple of seconds by just handcuffing them, they would never see it coming (except if they're speedsters), but they dumb him down so he can struggle enough to fill the action quota, voilà! I watch it for the characters and story, not time travel logic.

 

[Batmannerism]

I'm kind of hoping that we get to see Wally present for Eobard's descent into hatred and loathing, just because I loved the Mark Waid idea of making Wally fight arguably his predecessor's greatest nemesis to finally get out of Barry's shadow while also honoring the mantle by beating down this actual usurper.

The Once and Future Flash , still my favourite Flash storyline of all time (well, okay the "Once and Future Flash" is the title of the final issue of that storyline which was entitled

Spoiler

the Return of Barry Allen

. Sorry about the Spoilers, obviously the poster I've quoted has read it, but for anyone who hasn't it's great - and was almost certainly the inspiration for a lot of episode 11.

Waid really hit it out of the park with that one - the gradual reveal of Thawne's true identity

Spoiler

who had first appeared as a resurrected Barry Allen

and of course the return of Johnny Quick, Max Mercury and Jay Garrick.

It was really Wally's finest hour as the Flash, and a turning point for him as a character - it's shows him at his lowest as well as his best.

I don't mind that it was adapted so that it's become part of Barry's story - hope they draw more inspiration from classic Flash stories.

 

[spiderman2]

I just have to say about this show and the whole patty thing that I hope either this season or next season the show can start to get better again. While I still like the show season 1 was so much better then season 2 so far and the way patty and Barry's relationship ended and also the way the ended having Barry's dad on the show and I mean has like a regular where both handeld really badly like worse then any thing in season 1.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I still don't get why he has to break up with Patty, though. She's in no less danger not knowing the Flash's identity than she is knowing. I mean, if he tells her the truth it's not like a sign will be lit up over her head saying, "Kidnap me!" She's already been kidnapped once, for God's sake.

The whole "If you knew my secret, it will put you in danger" mentality was always dumb.

 

[Avenging Angel]

Maybe for Iris since she's a sitting duck based on the next promo. Telling her was a waste. Patty could have done more.