ShadowBoxing said:
And if you had never watched the TV show you were lost. Just as if you had never read Teen Titans I doubt you'd get JUDAS CONTRACT.
Fair enough. I'm willing to bet that more people had seen the TV shows and had the toys than people who have read JUDAS CONTRACT or know about the Teen Titans as they were in the comic, and not the show. We're never going to agree to this point. You believe TRANSFORMERS THE MOVIE is the same as a JC DTV and it's really different. But we're never going to agree, and neither one of us will submit on the point.
Good thing all the DTVs are aimed at an audience of late teen to adult fans of the comic huh. Brillant how you can "market" stuff to certain "audiences".
Now you're getting snippy.
I guess I see your point. In a way, the DTV approaches to DC and Marvel are showing off their publishing ambitions now, too. Marvel still has an ear towards wanting more "mainstream appeal" and getting new fans/readers. DC, feeling that these "mainstream approaches to new fans" almost never produce substantial results, are set about bringing out products exclusively for hardcore DC fans, and everyone else is just not invited. INFINITE CRISIS relied heavilly on a reader having a very intimate knowledge of the DC Universe to get all the references and truly appreciate it. I read it and I enjoyed it, and I did some research on it, but I'm more of a Marvel fan than DC. I admit that bias. A DC product has to work harder to please me than a Marvel product because of that bias. That's probably why I almost expected perfection from later JLU episodes but can enjoy action romps like the UA films, which I never said were flawless, either.
So to that end, Marvel puts out DTV's in the hopes of trying to please hardcore fans and mainstream audiences, while DC is only interested in pleasing their fanbase, because that fanbase never leaves, and everyone else can shovel it. Both POV's have their strengths and flaws. Marvel's ambitious, but DC may be more realistic.
Ultimate Avengers adapted an existing story into a kiddie film, changed many elements. Made once three dimensional characters into two dimensional clinche's. I fail to see the comparison.
PG-13 is hardly "kiddie" unless you consider every PG-13 film every made a children's film. PG-13 nowadays can allow a lot of hardcore content and is more or less the "de facto" rating for a lot of movies because R usually spells less sales because children "technically" can't have as easy access to it. Plus, while CN doesn't have a say in these DTV's, I'm sure Arad knows they're being reaired and CN would never air an R rated cartoon film. Even Adult Swim stuff is editted.
I think agruing THE ULTIMATES would be pointless, but while I enjoyed the story, I wouldn't call all of the characters "three dimensional" as at some point they all become cliches the longer it went, especially into ULTIMATES 2. Capt. America became the embodyment of Millar's depiction of an American Soldier, which is a violent, unreasonable thug with unflinching morals or POV. Janet became a poster child for a battered wife. Hank Pym became a malicious unrootable *****ebag. Even Thor, one of the most likeable characters in the series, has fallen into a cliche of overzealous hippy/lefty stuff. And the Hulk was simply a monster on every level, with none of the semi-heroic intones that some fans of the character liked. There's nothing to root for about a guy who eats people and brags about wanting to rape someone. And I guess that's Millar's point, that in real life EVERYONE has some dark side and no one is as squeaky clean as we like to believe. But that doesn't mean we like reading about a team of people who, in one way or an other, would be called "jerks" in real life.
That said, I did like THE ULTIMATES and it had a lot of great moments, which overshadowed the flaws to me. It wasn't as politically polarizing as ULTIMATES 2 would become as Millar went into his "angry that Kerry Lost" mode, and remembered that it was still supposed to be about superheroes. Cap's WW2 sequence, his awakening, his "man out of time" aspect, reuniting with Bucky and his old war sweetheart, Stark's revealing of his fatal brain tumor, and too many more to list. There was a lot UA missed out on, but that was due to time length. No DTV, even these DC ones you are lauding so much, seem to want to commit more than 80 minutes. Heck, surpassing 75 seems to be a chore; even MASK OF THE PHANTASM, a great feature film, clocks in at 76 minutes. The question is, if DC wants to slavishly and faithfully translate these stories into DTV's, can they do it in 75 minutes or less? And if they so have to "trim the fat", will the fans they're courting still appreciate it, or feel cheated?
JLU backstories were non existent, yet no one complains. Maybe because it was good.
I see it as a double standard. The first season of JL was mediocre at best. But because it improved, no one cares. These were Marvel's FIRST DTV's. And heck, their first new animation in 2 years. It'd been more than half a decade since some of the Avengers were animated (like Iron Man, Thor, Black Panther, etc). But Marvel's not allowed a learning curve?
Star Wars was not an established franchise when it came out. However there are people who have read Teen Titans, New Frontier, Death of Superman, Ultimates, etc.
Fair point.
Animated spectrum of what exactly. It's an adaption of AN EXISTING COMIC. Go outside your house, buy it. Then you might start to understand.
I'll spell it out one last time before I give up. You seem to believe JUDAS CONTRACT is a stand alone story, that dropped out of the sky out of nowhere. It wasn't. It needed the beginning of the NEW Teen Titans (not the TT in general, the New team was made in the 80's or so) and needed some of that backhistory for the full impact and effect of the story, that a new member (that the team historically was always easy upon admitting) would so heartlessly betray them, for little motive aside for sadism & selfishness.
Look at anime. 95% of anime are comics being converted to animation, panal for panal many times. But you don't just start at the manga's high-point (and anime that does has usually been panned as confusing, even if decent). You need some context to start out with, even when anime is usually being directed at people who liked the manga.
No your first film is "I already know who the Teen Titans are because I am a comic book fan, the person this DVD is being marketed to."
I bet Star Wars fans don't pop in the NEW HOPE DVD if they want to watch EMPIRE.
They don't need too. They've already seen NEW HOPE and get the context and the build-up. But what you're saying is that because TT has a comic book history, a beginning film like NEW HOPE isn't required. I disagree, because I see comics as a serial, especially the Wolfman/Perez NEW TEEN TITANS stuff. But at this point we're both slamming our heads into walls to try to convince the other of our points.
But they did not show it, in fact they started off with a story "The Man Bat" that most bat fans were familiar with.
I don't want to niggle about B:TAS because I enjoyed it. There were few bad episodes and it springboarded some 14 years of quality continuity DC Universe with countless brilliant writers, actors, animators, episodes, and moments (that managed to please old and new fans). So I can omit and forgive, say, "I'VE GOT BATMAN IN MY BASEMENT".
I don't remember since I was young and probably did not care back then. But then they must not be that memorable.
Do I get to automatically dismiss one of your points because I "don't remember it"? My point was that a new Superman animation could have went the B:TAS route and had a pre-existing Superman and some rogues, but they started from the beginning for context, to build it up.
If this were an ongoing show like Superman your point might hold some water. But sadly, it doesn't.
Touche'. So you believe JC is not a pivotal story from a serial that had a rich context to lead up to it, and instead is a one-shot sort of deal like KINGDOME COME or NEW FRONTIER (which is also getting a DTV) or WATCHMEN. As in something you could just read and give two figs about without the build up from previous volumes.
No I hated it. It had a horrible plot. It was better when it was called Superman I.
Okay. I liked it but I can understand someone who doesn't.
MAN of STEEL by fanboy Alex Ford would have been better, BTW it did not have an origin either. But it was a revamp.
Since you dismissed my S:TAS point because "you didn't remember it, so it doesn't matter", then I'll dismiss this one because, "I have no clue who Alex Ford is, never read the script, so it does't matter". We even?
Okay great. But unlike in an ongoing series, which builds upon itself, this is a direct market to the fans. The origin story is unnecessary. BTW when are you making a NEW POINT.
Now who's
"Pontificating?
You feel its not required because the fans know the build-up and would surely hate to see the prior NEW TEEN TITANS stuff animated. I feel that as the climax of a serial run, that context is needed for the full effect. At this point you either dont understand my point, or, probably, disagree. Fine.
To someone unfamiliar. Good thing those people won't be advertised to.
And good thing the DTVs wont sell well enough for DC to commit to more of them in the long term. Yeah, Ill call it now. They wont be on the Top 10 DTV seller list for at least 2 weeks like the last batch of Marvels DTVs, flawed as they are. And Im sure a lot of people will post reviews about being confused that wont help things.
I think you miss the point of these videos now for the 10th time. They are not ongoing shows. They are adaptions of comics.
Comics are a serial medium. Without some establishment of the buildup beforehand, its worthless. Say Marvel decided to animate THE DEATH OF GWEN STACY panal by panal, word for word, not even bothering to change the dialogue to reflect modern times (i.e., no Vietnam). Perfect translation. It is going to seem jarring for people because stuff like the death of Capt. Stacy, like prior battles with the Goblin, and so forth that are key to that boiling point wont be there except for maybe a reference in dialogue or Spidey internal conflict narrative. That is why adapting these sorts of stories are better if they are adapted as part of a serial, not a one-shot movie, at least to me. Id love to see a better JC adapation than the TT show did. But start from a beginning point, build it up, do it proper.
Hence, why I am VERY excited about a DTV Spider-Man SERIES coming up from Sony and Marvel, because theyll get a chance to do a Spider-Man serial right, without having to knowtow to BS & P or a network. And they can build up to classic stories like the aforementioned one with the context sustained. But maybe Im more patient than some. Maybe thered be a million people who just want to see DEATH and so forth, but Im not one of them. The storys great because of being included in that serial, of that superhero soap, and removing it takes some of that away.
They could have tried not pirating the story.
Great then do what X-Men Evolution did and do a new story, not half a$$ an existing one.
Actually Hulk's horny nature is quiet interesting, it makes him more of a base human being rather than just a savage animal. He is Banner's inner desires embodied rather than a mere animal. I found the change interesting. And a little comedic relief is never bad. And that was funny.
Do you have any idea how many people whined and moaned about X-MEN EVOLUTION when it was around? I was there. I had to defend the show from endless hordes of people who wouldnt let the 90s series go or hated how it was kiddie. Even Marvels not been thrilled by the end product, which was why they havent fought with WB as much to release it as much as theyve fought Disney over the rights to their 80s/90s material. Which is a shame because I enjoyed it, warts and all.
You just didnt like UA 1 & 2, thats fine.
I cant believe you bought Millars baloney about there being a deeper context towards Hulk making raunchy sexual humor, and not just Millar liking that sort of thing. Ever read WANTED? That book had Millar doing what he wanted to do with no imput from an editor, nobody, just his own schtick, and that thing was a violence/profanity/raunchy parade. It was the sort of thing thats maybe amusing the first time you hear it but makes you roll your eyes upon repeat readings, sort of like a lot of the potty jokes from GOLDMEMBER. At least to me. Some people liked that Hulk was an irredemanble monster without being the least bit heroic. I, on the other hand, found that limited; okay, so he went from anti-hero to generic Mr. Hyde pariable, just with pop culture on his side. In UA, on the other hand, Hulk got to be both a hero AND a monster, like he is in the original comics, and I enjoyed it more. Although I can see how a hardcore ULTIMATES fan, used to the monstrous, crude Hulk, may have felt it was kiddified. To each their own. I always felt Millar is a great writer when he doesnt go too far off the deep end and doesnt write from an extreme, such as having a character be a cannibilizing wanna-be rapist, or another be an almost inhuman wife-beater who then sells out his entire nation to ruthless thugs. When hes not trying to be as extreme, or edgy as you later call it, like on ULTIMATE FANTASTIC FOUR, ULTIMATE X-MEN, half his ULTIMATES stuff and agrueably CIVIL WAR, hes usually more readable to me.
Right but this is not live action cinema to general audiences. again
FYI, you were the one who originally brought up LOTR.
Hollywood ideal? When do you do your stand up routines?
I meant the Hollywood cliche/ending syndrome. Every movie has to end in a triumph against adversity, etc.
Again, sigh. DTVs are not feature films. They are DTVs and thus are not subject to that general audience that all producers feel they have to ****e out to.
I just feel JUDAS would be stronger if the second part of a TT DTV series with Wolfman & Co. Why am I an idiot for wanting a great story to be stronger?
No straw man argument is arguing against distortions. Like arguing how a DTV market towards fans would not work based on Live Action "Based on a True Story" movies are made.
Touche. I give you the point.
To you. But not to Alex Ford, who was a fan who actually sold his MAN of STEEL script. All you are doing is coping out of admitting you might be mifted if someone messed around with your own intellectual property.
I wasnt copping out. I was admitting it but claiming it was an obvious, moot point. Like getting me to agree to, if I shot you, it would hurt. Well, duh. Next?
Not really, since comics too tend to return to status quos that are easily identified by readers. But I digress.
Curiously, do you think that is a bane or a boon to mainstream comics?
Not to the extent of comics. And if they do they tend to be poorly received. Like poorly adapted comic films
I think youll find that even well-recieved comic films have had to take major liberties with the source material. But theyre all movies or TV series, which youve branded as worthless. I had to use them as context because, THERE ARENT MANY DTVS TO COMPARE TO! The only DTVs that one can compare this to are invalid because they come from TV shows like B:TAS or THE BATMAN or TT or BEYOND or whatever.
Story is typically preserved to the letter. Like PASSION OF THE CHRIST, which is obviously their most successful film to date.
And people debated that one, too.
Right, but no one is talking about TV or movies aimed at general audiences or TV or movies that are condensing massive amounts of material. We are talking about adaptions of single stories into fan marketed home DVDs.
Again, I brought them up because the DTV library is limited and usually reduced to spin off films from TV shows. I know you believe UA 1 & 2 are bad, but you have to admit DCd never have announced theri new DTV ideas if UA 1 hadnt sold like gangbusters and got their attention.
Of course not, because movies and comics are different media. Things are lost in translation. But expecting 98% is not to much.
2% wiggle room is not flexible. That would be like me expecting a kid to get a 98% on every test they ever take, ever. Having standards is great, having high standards even better, but I fear too many fans go into the extreme -- Unattainable Expectations. And that is a shame. I can live with maybe 85-90%, but ONLY if whatever changes are made, for whatever reason, work in the context of the film or series as a whole. Thats a purely subjective rulestick, but most reviews are.
Easy example; in the TMNT series (the original incarnation from 2003-2006), in which their creator IS involved in the production, BTW, they had a MAJOR change regarding the Shredder; basically, instead of being a human ninja, he was an alien (or at least an alien who may have usurped a Fuedal ninjas identity). Huge change. Many people hated it. But I felt it worked for THAT series, and it opened the doors to a lot of quality stuff to explore. But if you havent watched this series, or dislike it, its a worthless point to you.
You seem like the kind of guy who would be happy with a car if it were slightly better than the last piece of crap you had. Frankly. I'd like to pay for a good product. Customers should require more than just evolution starting in the mud. At some point you have to pull your head out of the mud and do something worth while.
Pontificating...
Whats good for the goose, right?
I have high standards. I just have tried to come down from being inflexible and having unreasonable expectations. That limit is different for various people.