Ultimate Marvel

[Saved]

Yes, a picture of Captain *******, ****ty Wasp, Incest Twins, Perverted Homicidal Hulk and Drunk Ass Iron Man is the perfect rebuttal to my statement. You win at the internet.

Okay, to be fair, Tony was a major drunk in mainstream too. There's not much of a difference in his drinking tendencies.

They're not selfless though. Tony Stark isn't selfless, not by a longshot, the Incest Twins are trying to better their names, they're in it for themselves, and the others do it for the paycheck and because they have mental disorders and in the case of Cap, he doesn't know how to do anything else but be a giant prick and snap people's necks. Thor is really the only selfless one there.

And thats what makes the Ultimate universe crazy, and IMO, awesome. The whole Ultimate universe is gritty and darker.

 

[The Overlord]

One problem I have with the ultimate Universe, most of the villains are lamer then their 616 counter parts:

Ultimate Magneto is just a one dimensional psychopath.

Ultimate Gobby is too sci fi, a nut in a costume is more realistic.

The B-list villains are the worst offenders though: Ultimate Vulture and ultimate Scoropion suck, they are just throwaway characters, their 616 counter parts are so much better.

Heck most b-list villains suck in UU, they are either jokes or thorw away characters, why doesn't Electro or Sandman get their own arcs?

Heck by doesn't someone take lame villains like trapster or egghead and make them more interesting in the UU? That would be impresive.

 

[Blader5489]

The Ultimates aren't superheroes.

You're right. They're soldiers. But that just adds to, as Syn said, the more realistic atmosphere.

My point is, if the comics aren't going to take themselves seriously (re: heroes wearing their underwear outside of their pants) then they can't expect me to take them seriously either. In the case of Hawkeye, I can very much see that Ultimate Hawkeye is a badass, whereas 616 Hawkeye is a *****.

Ultimate Magneto is just a one dimensional psychopath.

Ultimate Magneto is actually someone to be feared, unlike 616 Magneto (though, to his credit, Grant Morrison did try to change that image).

 

[The Overlord]

You're right. They're soldiers. But that just adds to, as Syn said, the more realistic atmosphere.

My point is, if the comics aren't going to take themselves seriously (re: heroes wearing their underwear outside of their pants) then they can't expect me to take them seriously either. In the case of Hawkeye, I can very much see that Ultimate Hawkeye is a badass, whereas 616 Hawkeye is a *****.



Ultimate Magneto is actually someone to be feared, unlike 616 Magneto (though, to his credit, Grant Morrison did try to change that image).

Big deal, 616 Magneto has the brains and the power to be a threat without degenerating into a generic psychopath.

Meanwhile there are several questions that remain unanswered, like why is he such a dick? 616 Magneto at least has a reason for being a villain, Ultimate Magneto seems more evil for evil sakes, he comes across as about as deep as Dick Dastardly.

616 Magneto is malclom X, Ultimate Magneto is Bin Laden and Malclom X is way more interesting than bin Laden. Ultimate Magneto is an extremely poor man's Red Skull in terms of personality. Ultimate Magneto may be threatening but he lacks characterization.

Also are there B-list villains that are more threatening or interesting then their 616 counterparts, for the most part they seem lamer than better (616 Vulture and Scorpion are way better than Ultimate vulture and Ultimate scorpion).

Instead of making all the b-list villains lamer, why not make one more dangerous? I would be impressed if Ultimate Trapster was made more dangerous.

 

[DoomJester]

"Ultimates" is a great take on a great team, and it's a great book (barring Loeb's average 90s style comic run).

If the Ultimates aren't super-heroes, then no registered "hero" is a super-hero in the 616 continuity. All you've done is exchange Federal gov't for some other sort of losely defined gov't. And Starks position is extremely politically insulated there as well. I think at least in Ultimates the President assembled the team.

My point is the regs in 616 They are soldiers/cops as well, they just haven't been deployed to Iraq yet so we don't see it. But look at it this way, I don't need them to be super-heroish, fun loving adventurers or anything like that. I need them to stop Ultron, or Magneto, or the Liberators or whoever else wants to screw with my country or with reality. Luckily I live in Florida, and I guess no villains really like the sun.

 

[Blader5489]

Big deal, 616 Magneto has the brains and the power to be a threat without degenerating into a generic psychopath.

But when was the last time (ignoring Morrison's New X-Men) 616 Magneto even posed a worldwide threat? Also, I'm not sure I would characterize Ultimate Magneto as being brainless.

Meanwhile there are several questions that remain unanswered, like why is he such a dick? 616 Magneto at least has a reason for being a villain, Ultimate Magneto seems more evil for evil sakes, he comes across as about as deep as Dick Dastardly.

Being a dick is synonymous with being a jerk. 616 Magneto is a jerk, or a dick, or what have you. Ultimate Magneto isn't a jerk, he's ****ing Hitler.

616 Magneto is malclom X, Ultimate Magneto is Bin Laden and Malclom X is way more interesting than bin Laden.

But bin Laden makes for a far more compelling villain than Malcolm X. And whether you intended to or not, you actually just proved my point by saying that 616 Magneto is analogous to Malcolm X. A man who believes with his heart and soul that mutants are superior to humans and that mankind needs to be exterminated is a true villain; that is what Ultimate Magneto is. 616 Magneto may share those same aspirations, but he has rarely acted on them the way Ultimates Mags has. So yes, 616 Magneto is like a Malcolm X--neither of them are villains.

Also are there B-list villains that are more threatening or interesting then their 616 counterparts, for the most part they seem lamer than better (616 Vulture and Scorpion are way better than Ultimate vulture and Ultimate scorpion).

Instead of making all the b-list villains lamer, why not make one more dangerous? I would be impressed if Ultimate Trapster was made more dangerous.

Because Ultimate =/= 616. The B-list villains are just that: B-list. They aren't threats, they're weirdos in costumes; they're distractions. And that's the way they should be. The Ultimate universe is not meant to be a carbon copy of the MU, and whenever it tries to be is usually when it fails. If you're looking for depth in characters like the Vulture, then stick to the main MU; in the Ultimate universe, they're treated exactly the way they should be.

 

[kguillou]

I see what your saying Blader, but i still think that 616 Magneto is a way more interesting character than the straight up villain in Ultimate. One thing that i've always admired about magneto was that even though he did BAD things, he still somewhat had a good heart. He did what he did so that he could ultimately achieve peace for mutants, not war. And, eventhough he never outright admitted it, he still has a great love for his old friend Xavier. This isnt the case for Ultimate Mags. I remember one thing that shocked me was during the "Cable" arc in Ultimate X-men, when Magneto learned that Xavier had "died", he said something like " Nobody bother me, I want to enjoy the death of Xavier." 616 Magneto would never have said, in fact, i think he would be depressed if Prof X were to ever really die.

 

[moraldeficiency]

No love for Ultimate Iron Man? That's a shame, I really enjoy seeing him.

Personally I love the ultimate universe because it's just a pocket universe. It's a chance to try out anything and see what sticks and resonates without @ucking up a mainstream character. It's a giant What if? so I never get mad at any stories in it.

So when you see your favorite character getting schooled or acting completely out of character you get to say so what, it's not really them just some alternative version of them. I never really understood people getting upset about things in the ultimate line. It's not the 616, and it's made to be more gritty, real and controversial so don't be shocked when it is.

The entire universe was made to be a fun popcorn movie, and that's what I take it as. This is the place to do the things that would piss me off when done to 616 characters. The place where spidey can be single without..... now my brain hurts....

 

[IRON_Lad]

Although I haven't read Loebs run, I like the ultimates because they dealt with stuff that heros would deal with nowadays. they also dealt with it more realistically. And the last arc was brilliant because I think that woulda happend in real life. I also admire the fact that in the ultimate universe the books don't cross into eachother(continuity-wise).

Yes, a picture of Captain *******, ****ty Wasp, Incest Twins, Perverted Homicidal Hulk and Drunk Ass Iron Man is the perfect rebuttal to my statement. You win at the internet.

Darthphere why don't you try not to be a prick. I wasn't trying to "win at the internet" I was trying to show that the ultimates are as much heros as any 616 counterpart. But apparently to you, everyone has to wear underware outside their suit, wear spandex and have a villain-of-the-week to be a superhero.

 

[SuperFerret]

Eh, i guess you got me there...but come on, you havta admit that there were some truly kick ass moments in the Ultimates series.

And thats what makes the Ultimate universe crazy, and IMO, awesome. The whole Ultimate universe is gritty and darker.

That doesn't necessarily make things better in any fashion, just flashier and grittier. The flash gets the people who like explosions, and the grit gets the people who enjoy "realism" (note that realism is in quotes and therefore means "reality as imagined in Frank Miller's Sin City"). The rest of us who hope for good storytelling, or admirable heroes are spit out of luck.

Oh, and in regards to the debate on whether or not the Ultimates are heroes, I just want to say this.

616 Captain America dies, the world mourns and an inspiration figure is lost. Ultimate Captain America dies, and he's just another soldier.

 

[The Overlord]

But when was the last time (ignoring Morrison's New X-Men) 616 Magneto even posed a worldwide threat? Also, I'm not sure I would characterize Ultimate Magneto as being brainless.

I never said brainless, just generic, his personality is boring, in terms of personality he is no different from any other megalomaniac, his personality is very similar to Kleiser for example.

Being a dick is synonymous with being a jerk. 616 Magneto is a jerk, or a dick, or what have you. Ultimate Magneto isn't a jerk, he's ****ing Hitler.

So he is an extremely poor man's Red Skull, only without a real motive to explain his actions: boring. Ultimate Magneto is about as deep as silver age Magneto.

But bin Laden makes for a far more compelling villain than Malcolm X. And whether you intended to or not, you actually just proved my point by saying that 616 Magneto is analogous to Malcolm X. A man who believes with his heart and soul that mutants are superior to humans and that mankind needs to be exterminated is a true villain; that is what Ultimate Magneto is. 616 Magneto may share those same aspirations, but he has rarely acted on them the way Ultimates Mags has. So yes, 616 Magneto is like a Malcolm X--neither of them are villains.

Ultimate Magneto may be scarier per say, but he is boring as a character. Just because a villain eats puppies doesn't make them interesting. 616 magneto is a gray villain, that's what makes him interesting, you can contrast him with other villains who are pure evil, like red Skull or Apocalypse.

Ultimate Magneto you really can't contrast him with anyone, he's just an SOB and that is kinda boring for him. Where's the motive, back story or character development?

Because Ultimate =/= 616. The B-list villains are just that: B-list. They aren't threats, they're weirdos in costumes; they're distractions. And that's the way they should be. The Ultimate universe is not meant to be a carbon copy of the MU, and whenever it tries to be is usually when it fails. If you're looking for depth in characters like the Vulture, then stick to the main MU; in the Ultimate universe, they're treated exactly the way they should be.

That's the lazy man's excuse, if Bruce timm can make B-listers like Mr. Freeze interesting or even D-lister like Clock King, why can't Millar or Bendis do the same? Heck Bendis already did with Purple man in Alias, so why can't he do that in the uU.

And overexposing villains like Gobby, Ock and Kingpin is exactly what the 616 universe does, so doing it again in the ultimate Universe does make the uU look like carbon copy. Ultimate Kingpin and 616 Kingpin are exactly the same, so what's the difference between their story arcs? Why not focus on someone who doesn't get a lot coverage in the 616 universe?

Besides not all villains started off as A-list, Gobby rode a broom stick for god's sake, he developed into a A-lister later on. According to you, he should have been considered lame from the get go and never used again.

You what would be different from the 616 universe, taking a lame villain like Trapster, remaking in the Ultimate Universe (where his gimmick is death traps, like ther Jigsaw killer, instead of glue), that would be different and impressive.

 

[Blader5489]

So he is an extremely poor man's Red Skull, only without a real motive to explain his actions: boring. Ultimate Magneto is about as deep as silver age Magneto.

He has a pretty obvious motive. He sees humans as insects and thinks they deserve to be wiped off the face of the planet.

Ultimate Magneto may be scarier per say, but he is boring as a character. Just because a villain eats puppies doesn't make them interesting. 616 magneto is a gray villain, that's what makes him interesting, you can contrast him with other villains who are pure evil, like red Skull or Apocalypse.

Ultimate Magneto you really can't contrast him with anyone, he's just an SOB and that is kinda boring for him. Where's the motive, back story or character development?

I didn't say he was deep, I said he was a compelling villain, a real force to be reckoned with. He's not a poor man's anything. With Ultimate Magneto, there's an actual threat that mankind will become extinct. Can't really say the same for 616 Magneto. And that is what makes Ultimate Magneto a better villain; maybe not a better character, but a better villain for sure.

That's the lazy man's excuse, if Bruce timm can make B-listers like Mr. Freeze interesting or even D-lister like Clock King, why can't Millar or Bendis do the same? Heck Bendis already did with Purple man in Alias, so why can't he do that in the uU.

Because that's not what the Ultimate universe is about! Like moraldeficiency said, the Ultimate books are essentially big popcorn movies; a more realistic reboot of the main Marvel universe. The big name characters are the only ones who should be getting the bulk of story presence, just like you would see in a big movie franchise.

You really need to stop thinking in terms of "616 does this, so why can't Ultimate do that?" The 616 and Ultimate universes are their own separate entities.

I see what your saying Blader, but i still think that 616 Magneto is a way more interesting character than the straight up villain in Ultimate. One thing that i've always admired about magneto was that even though he did BAD things, he still somewhat had a good heart. He did what he did so that he could ultimately achieve peace for mutants, not war. And, eventhough he never outright admitted it, he still has a great love for his old friend Xavier. This isnt the case for Ultimate Mags. I remember one thing that shocked me was during the "Cable" arc in Ultimate X-men, when Magneto learned that Xavier had "died", he said something like " Nobody bother me, I want to enjoy the death of Xavier." 616 Magneto would never have said, in fact, i think he would be depressed if Prof X were to ever really die.

You're right, 616 Magneto would have never said that. That's why there's a clear distinction between 616 Magneto and Ultimate Magneto; that's what makes them two separate characters.

 

[The Overlord]

He has a pretty obvious motive. He sees humans as insects and thinks they deserve to be wiped off the face of the planet.

Ok, why he does he think that? What made him decide that was the best path?

I didn't say he was deep, I said he was a compelling villain, a real force to be reckoned with. He's not a poor man's anything. With Ultimate Magneto, there's an actual threat that mankind will become extinct. Can't really say the same for 616 Magneto. And that is what makes Ultimate Magneto a better villain; maybe not a better character, but a better villain for sure.

That makes more a plot device than a character, he is 616 Apocalypse, a generic evil overlord who is really powerful. Give me characterization and back stories over a plot device disguised as a character any day.

Doomsday is a dangerous villain, but a really boring character.

Because that's not what the Ultimate universe is about! Like moraldeficiency said, the Ultimate books are essentially big popcorn movies; a more realistic reboot of the main Marvel universe. The big name characters are the only ones who should be getting the bulk of story presence, just like you would see in a big movie franchise.

The problem with that comparison is, a movie ends after a while. With the uU, they just show the same couple of movies and over again and after the novelty wears off, it gets really boring really quickly. i'm sick of this sick, show me something different and try using narrative devices that have worked in western fiction for decades, like back stories, clear motives and characterization.

The UU needs to grow or die, because this popcorn movie has gone stale after 8 years.

You really need to stop thinking in terms of "616 does this, so why can't Ultimate do that?" The 616 and Ultimate universes are their own separate entities.

If both the UU and 616 focuses solely on the exact same overexposed characters, how are they really different in the end? seems like they are becoming carbon copies of each other.

What's the difference between a Kingpin arc in UU and the 616 MU? How is Ock that different?

 

[Blader5489]

Ok, why he does he think that? What made him decide that was the best path?

He considers human beings as the insects of the Earth. What do you do with a bug? Do you try to make friends with it and establish a peaceful coexistence with it, or do you flush it down the toilet?

That makes more a plot device than a character, he is 616 Apocalypse, a generic evil overlord who is really powerful. Give me characterization and back stories over a plot device disguised as a character any day.

Doomsday is a dangerous villain, but a really boring character.

Okay fine, he's 616 Apocalypse. He may not as deep as 616 Magneto, but Ultimate Magneto he's a far more dangerous and just flat out better villain. At this point, 616 Magneto is more of an anti-hero than anything, which in of itself has become boring.

And as far being stale goes, I ask you, what's more stilted: 8 years of tyrannical Magneto or 30+ years of neutered Magneto?

The problem with that comparison is, a movie ends after a while.

As will the Ultimate line.

If both the UU and 616 focuses solely on the exact same overexposed characters, how are they really different in the end?

Do you even read the Ultimate books? Ultimate Spidey, Ultimates 1 and 2, and the early runs of Ultimate X-Men are all pretty self-explanatory in how/why they differ from their 616 counterparts.

Now, in 2008, the Ultimate universe is largely becoming pointless (with the exception of USM). Ultimate X-Men has become exactly what it set out not to be; Ultimate Fantastic Four has been redundant from the get-go; and Ultimates 3 has succeeded in completely destroying what made the Ultimates interesting in the first place. So yes, if you're referring to the past two years or so of Ultimate books, then I would agree that the Ultimate universe has become stale and redundant. But, supposedly, that's why Ultimatum is being written.

 

[Anubis]

Your opinions are officially s**t.

 

[The Overlord]

He considers human beings as the insects of the Earth. What do you do with a bug? Do you try to make friends with it and establish a peaceful coexistence with it, or do you flush it down the toilet?

Ok, but why does he feel this way? I may be superior to mice, but I don't try to kill all of them for no reason.

Okay fine, he's 616 Apocalypse. He may not as deep as 616 Magneto, but Ultimate Magneto he's a far more dangerous and just flat out better villain. At this point, 616 Magneto is more of an anti-hero than anything, which in of itself has become boring.

So would 616 magneto have been better if just maintained his Silver age personality instead?

Was Mr. Freeze better as a sympathetic character or a generic criminal?

I mean ultimate magneto isn't a jobber, so in that regards he is better than 616, but still....

And as far being stale goes, I ask you, what's more stilted: 8 years of tyrannical Magneto or 30+ years of neutered Magneto?

Who wore out their welcome quicker?

As will the Ultimate line.

That's hasn't been confirmed, it seemed they never had a plan to end anyway, they just decided end it when they ruined it and became unpopular, that's not how a movie ends.

Do you even read the Ultimate books? Ultimate Spidey, Ultimates 1 and 2, and the early runs of Ultimate X-Men are all pretty self-explanatory in how/why they differ from their 616 counterparts..

I have and those lines are blurred considerablely in recently years, for example 616 Spidey was supposed to be responsible adult (with a wife and job) and Ultimate spidey is a goofy kid in high school, now 616 spidey is an idiot manchild, he is a teenager in a man's body at this point and ther biggesty difference, him being married has been removed.

Besides I was talking about certain characters, not the universe as a whole, how is ultimate kingpin, different from 616 Kingpin?

Frankly ultimate sinister is a better Ultimate villain then most of the people you described, their they took a character who had some problems in the 616 universe and gave him a new spin, that was actually creative.

Now, in 2008, the Ultimate universe is largely becoming pointless (with the exception of USM). Ultimate X-Men has become exactly what it set out not to be; Ultimate Fantastic Four has been redundant from the get-go; and Ultimates 3 has succeeded in completely destroying what made the Ultimates interesting in the first place. So yes, if you're referring to the past two years or so of Ultimate books, then I would agree that the Ultimate universe has become stale and redundant. But, supposedly, that's why Ultimatum is being written.

But now see that seems like it could have been avoided, with some better ediorial decisions, hiring better writers, etc. But marvel doesn't seem to care.

Here's the problem, the pacing in that universe was too fast, they tried to burn through 40 years of story telling in 8 years, so there were a lot of lame ultimatizations. The whole selling point of the UU was that first it didn't have a continuity and anyone could jump on board, now it does and that's no longer a selling point. Because the uU often didn't bother with back stories and characterization for a lot of characters, it limited the story telling potential of those characters, somethings you need a B-0list villain to take center stage to avoid having the A-listers get over exposed. That's not a matter of 616 vs. Ultimate, that's case of good writing, period. I get sick of seeing the same few villains, over and over again and you need to have someone waiting in the wings, so they can be given a rest.

Again, the problem is the UU tried to act like a movie, when that's not what they were. No movie lasts 8 years, so their not a movie. Showing the same four villains over and over again in a 8 year period, that makes the concept stale really quickly. They hardly ever off low key or off beat stories, they try to be epic all the time and so they have burned themselves out quickly.

Frankly DCUA is superior to the UU, they developed lame characters, had off beat stories and avoided the continuity mess that the UU became. Also it took 30 years to mess up 616 MU, it took only 8 to mess up the UU, that seems like a problem with the movie writing you seem to like so much.

 

[Darthphere]

Darthphere why don't you try not to be a prick. I wasn't trying to "win at the internet" I was trying to show that the ultimates are as much heros as any 616 counterpart. But apparently to you, everyone has to wear underware outside their suit, wear spandex and have a villain-of-the-week to be a superhero.

Trying to show me how? By posting a pic? What the **** does that prove?

Look, learn how to debate, and come back to me ok.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

No love for Ultimate Iron Man? That's a shame, I really enjoy seeing him.

I don't think the character has been out that long,I think a year or two..I may be a bit wrong on the date exactly.

I've actually read more Ultimate comics recently,so I know more than before..but in the end..it usually comes to this..

Ultimate Spider-Man/Ultimates (Best)
Ultimate X-Men (Average,bad)
Ultimate Fantastic Four (Bad)

I remember a comment once that the Ultimate Universe can do new stories,instead of redoing older ones..but Marvel's scared to.

 

[SonOfCthulhu]

No. I live in the universe where I like my comics more realistic than cartoony. For analogy's sake, I'm more a fan of Batman Begins than Batman & Robin.

That's a horrible analogy. Batman & Robin doesn't have any fans.

 

[IRON_Lad]

Trying to show me how? By posting a pic? What the **** does that prove?

Look, learn how to debate, and come back to me ok.

Why...Why are you being such an ass?

 

[Blader5489]

Ok, but why does he feel this way? I may be superior to mice, but I don't try to kill all of them for no reason.

It's not rocket science. What part of "genocidal tyrant" escapes your understanding?

Who wore out their welcome quicker?

616 Magneto, as he rarely does anything of interest and has been around forever. Ultimate Magneto may be a static character, but it's never boring when he makes an appearance.

Also, you make it sound like these big-time villains do the same thing over and over and are used every year, which isn't true at all. Each villain has only starred in three major stories, tops, and each time has been something different.

That's hasn't been confirmed, it seemed they never had a plan to end anyway, they just decided end it when they ruined it and became unpopular, that's not how a movie ends.

You're right that there isn't a set end date in mind (or at least none has been announced), but the Ultimate line is very much finite.

I have and those lines are blurred considerablely in recently years, for example 616 Spidey was supposed to be responsible adult (with a wife and job) and Ultimate spidey is a goofy kid in high school, now 616 spidey is an idiot manchild, he is a teenager in a man's body at this point and ther biggesty difference, him being married has been removed.

They're still two very different characters, not only defined by their personalities but by their supporting casts and the worlds they live in. Being single blurs the line about as much having brown hair does.

Besides I was talking about certain characters, not the universe as a whole, how is ultimate kingpin, different from 616 Kingpin?

Frankly ultimate sinister is a better Ultimate villain then most of the people you described, their they took a character who had some problems in the 616 universe and gave him a new spin, that was actually creative.

Kingpin isn't much different in terms of characterization, but what separates the two versions is how they're used. Ultimate Fisk is the kingpin of crime, whereas 616 Fisk has kind of lost his luster.

And..."most of the people I described?" I didn't describe anyone. But as far as B-list villains go, you have to keep in mind that the Ultimate universe is considerably smaller than the 616 line, hence why the same major villains are being reused--which, again, is the way it should be. I don't understand why you keep pushing for bigger roles from B-list villains. There's a reason they're labeled "B-list."

Here's the problem, the pacing in that universe was too fast, they tried to burn through 40 years of story telling in 8 years, so there were a lot of lame ultimatizations. The whole selling point of the UU was that first it didn't have a continuity and anyone could jump on board, now it does and that's no longer a selling point.

Yes, that's what I said in my last post.

Again, the problem is the UU tried to act like a movie, when that's not what they were. No movie lasts 8 years, so their not a movie. Showing the same four villains over and over again in a 8 year period, that makes the concept stale really quickly. They hardly ever off low key or off beat stories, they try to be epic all the time and so they have burned themselves out quickly.

Frankly DCUA is superior to the UU, they developed lame characters, had off beat stories and avoided the continuity mess that the UU became. Also it took 30 years to mess up 616 MU, it took only 8 to mess up the UU, that seems like a problem with the movie writing you seem to like so much.

You're taking the movie analogy way too seriously.

 

[Darthphere]

Why...Why are you being such an ass?

Why are you making horrible non arguments?

 

[IRON_Lad]

I'm not trying to argue.

 

[kguillou]

Originally posted by the Overlord
Here's the problem, the pacing in that universe was too fast, they tried to burn through 40 years of story telling in 8 years, so there were a lot of lame ultimatizations. The whole selling point of the UU was that first it didn't have a continuity and anyone could jump on board, now it does and that's no longer a selling point. Because the uU often didn't bother with back stories and characterization for a lot of characters, it limited the story telling potential of those characters, somethings you need a B-0list villain to take center stage to avoid having the A-listers get over exposed. That's not a matter of 616 vs. Ultimate, that's case of good writing, period. I get sick of seeing the same few villains, over and over again and you need to have someone waiting in the wings, so they can be given a rest.

Again, the problem is the UU tried to act like a movie, when that's not what they were. No movie lasts 8 years, so their not a movie. Showing the same four villains over and over again in a 8 year period, that makes the concept stale really quickly. They hardly ever off low key or off beat stories, they try to be epic all the time and so they have burned themselves out quickly.

Beautiful statement Overlord . I couldnt have said it any better. That is exactly the problem with the UU. I mean there has only been about 100 or so issues of Ultimate Spiderman and we've already been through his entire rogues gallery. Pretty soon, they're gonna run out of material to write about. The story arcs have to be much longer, and there has to be alot more sub plot developments. And yes, there needs to be more off-beat stories. Thats if they plan on maintaining the UU forever.

But the real problem with the UU right now is simply the fact that Marvel doesnt even care about it anymore. They shifted their focus completely towards the 616 universe, now that its better than ever. In fact, i think the 616 U is even more realistic and gritty than the UU is now. Marvel's put all their best writers and artists on 616 books and is leaving the UU out to rot. Plus let's face it, people are alot more interested in Secret Invasion than Ultimatum.

 

[The Overlord]

It's not rocket science. What part of "genocidal tyrant" escapes your understanding?
.

But why is he like that?

That's like when asking what character's motive and saying that the character is serial killer. Why is he a serial killer is the question.

616 Magneto, as he rarely does anything of interest and has been around forever. Ultimate Magneto may be a static character, but it's never boring when he makes an appearance..

Sez you, there tons of people on this board who think 616 Mags is a good character.

Also, you make it sound like these big-time villains do the same thing over and over and are used every year, which isn't true at all. Each villain has only starred in three major stories, tops, and each time has been something different.

Perhaps, but people get sick of seeing the same villains over and over again, especially if they are the same overexposed villains from the 616 universe. Instead of doing yet another kingpin or Ock arc, why not do a Sandman arc or something. Its little silly if Ock or Kingpin get out of prison, again, so why not use someone else as a change of pace?

Those characters are over exposed and its a bit silly they manage to keep on getting out of prison in a "realistic" universe, focusing on smaller villains gives them break.

because now that these villains are being used all the time, they are starting to decay, instead of being epic threats, they came across as the freak of the week and Ock's last appearance was pretty lame (he can control metal, that's stupid, plus getting knocked out by electro wasn't very cool.)

Having a B-list take center stage now and again helps prevent villain decay and if the villains appear less when they appear, its more of an event.

You're right that there isn't a set end date in mind (or at least none has been announced), but the Ultimate line is very much finite.

That's just pure speculation on your part, it seemed like they are just trying to clean up their own mess that this point.

They're still two very different characters, not only defined by their personalities but by their supporting casts and the worlds they live in. Being single blurs the line about as much having brown hair does.

616 Spidey becoming a man child really blurs the line, he just looks older now, after they chucked out all of his character. He is single, lives with aunt, etc. Besides the fact one goes to high school and the other doesn't, their characters are very similar.

Plus now that avengers are working for the government, aren't they Ultimates lite?

Kingpin isn't much different in terms of characterization, but what separates the two versions is how they're used. Ultimate Fisk is the kingpin of crime, whereas 616 Fisk has kind of lost his luster.

That's because 616 Kingpin has been around for 40 years, it would be unrealistic if he were still top dog after all that has happened, in that time.

Still he managed to avoid arrest more than Ultimate Fisk, who has been put in the slammer twice.

In the UU, wouldn't be unrealistic if Kingpin wasn't repalced by someone else after he got arrested again?

And..."most of the people I described?" I didn't describe anyone. But as far as B-list villains go, you have to keep in mind that the Ultimate universe is considerably smaller than the 616 line, hence why the same major villains are being reused--which, again, is the way it should be. I don't understand why you keep pushing for bigger roles from B-list villains. There's a reason they're labeled "B-list."

So what Magneto and Gobby were b-list at one point, should they have stayed that way? There are no bad characters, only bad writers.

Why should the same villains get used over and over again, to the point where it seems all they do is lose all the time and start decay, shouldn't some new blood be introduced to prevent that?

Bruce Timm is way better at writing villaisn than UU writers.

Yes, that's what I said in my last post.

Did they have any other selling points in mind, because that's gone, you seem to think motives and characterization are not needed in the UU.

You're taking the movie analogy way too seriously.

Its stupid analogy, this a serial format, movies aren't for the most part. Vol. I and II could be described as movies, the other tiles, no the analogy doesn't work at all.

My criticisms you avoided stand though, that the UU is in a state of decay because of rushed pacing (too similar to movie, if you will) and trying to fit too much stuff at once.

How come they never have off beat or low key stories in the UU? That would be an interesting change of pace.