Ultimate Marvel

[GyLocke]

616 MAgneto is a joke. Even if we don't mention the whole Xorn thing. He died so many times, turned evil, turned back good, turned into a baby, get cloned and ****, it's not even funny. In no way is he a good character anymore.
His motives have been explained as "holocaust survivor" "brain not being able to handle his awesome power" to "being a clone".
He changes his opinion, methods and moral code from issue to issue. That's not a good character. That's a plot device. Throwing "holocaust!" in a character's history doesn't make him deep, especially if it makes him want world peace one moment, and exterminate the human race another. Murder all the X-men Monday, leading them on Wednesday. I was so glad when Morrisson killed him off. Of course it didn't stick.
I'll take the larger than life charismatic, fanatical leader ultimate mags any day over him.

 

[The Overlord]

616 MAgneto is a joke. Even if we don't mention the whole Xorn thing. He died so many times, turned evil, turned back good, turned into a baby, get cloned and ****, it's not even funny. In no way is he a good character anymore.
His motives have been explained as "holocaust survivor" "brain not being able to handle his awesome power" to "being a clone".
He changes his opinion, methods and moral code from issue to issue. That's not a good character. That's a plot device. Throwing "holocaust!" in a character's history doesn't make him deep, especially if it makes him want world peace one moment, and exterminate the human race another. Murder all the X-men Monday, leading them on Wednesday. I was so glad when Morrisson killed him off. Of course it didn't stick.
I'll take the larger than life charismatic, fanatical leader ultimate mags any day over him.

At least 616 mags has a motive, Ultimate mags is just evil, but they never explain why. Why not expalin why he started as someone who who was married to a human, to a gencocidal mandman, is a back story too much to ask for?

Like I said, Ultimate mags is the poor man's red skull, only without a motive.

It took 30 years to screw up 616 Mags, but before the 90s (when everyone got screwed) he was fine.

 

[GyLocke]

Most men don't go around announcing 'I'm doing this because daddy broke my toy horse!" Comic book villains do.

Ultimate Mags mentioned his family was killed in "one of humanities periodic genocide" when he was bonding with Cyclops. He said it doesn't matter which one, since they're all the same. I agree with him there. We've seen in flashbacks how he and Xavier turned against each other slowly in the savage land, when he slowly realized there is no way to peacefully co-exist with humans. Then Sentinels sent him over the edge. There were a ****load of hints of his past. We practically saw how he turned from radical into a monster. If they went into detail about his traumatic childhood, and which genocide he lost his family in, would not only date the character (like the 616 Mags is getting unlikely old thanks to the Holocaust backstory) but would also be lame.

I'm pretty fond of 616 mags, but Millar's Magneto and how other writers handled him as a threat is just awesome.

 

[The Overlord]

Most men don't go around announcing 'I'm doing this because daddy broke my toy horse!" Comic book villains do. .

What are talking about? Go to any trial and some defense lawyer will try to to sell the jury some sob story to his client off. Sometimes their justified and other times they are excuses for psychopaths to beat the system.

Ultimate Mags mentioned his family was killed in "one of humanities periodic genocide" when he was bonding with Cyclops. He said it doesn't matter which one, since they're all the same. I agree with him there. We've seen in flashbacks how he and Xavier turned against each other slowly in the savage land, when he slowly realized there is no way to peacefully co-exist with humans. Then Sentinels sent him over the edge. There were a ****load of hints of his past. We practically saw how he turned from radical into a monster. If they went into detail about his traumatic childhood, and which genocide he lost his family in, would not only date the character (like the 616 Mags is getting unlikely old thanks to the Holocaust backstory) but would also be lame..

He was an oil baron in america and he lost his family in a genocide, how does that work?

Also going from being married to a human to wanting to kill all of them is huge leap, that needs to be addressed by something more than vague hints.

I'm pretty fond of 616 mags, but Millar's Magneto and how other writers handled him as a threat is just awesome.

Like I said Ultimate Magento is almost exactly like 616 Apocalypse (who can be boiled down to powerful and evil), only less of a jobber.

 

[Blader5489]

But why is he like that?

That's like when asking what character's motive and saying that the character is serial killer. Why is he a serial killer is the question.

GyLocke has your answer.

Sez you, there tons of people on this board who think 616 Mags is a good character.

I didn't say he was a bad character, just that Ultimate Magneto is a better villain.

Perhaps, but people get sick of seeing the same villains over and over again, especially if they are the same overexposed villains from the 616 universe. Instead of doing yet another kingpin or Ock arc, why not do a Sandman arc or something. Its little silly if Ock or Kingpin get out of prison, again, so why not use someone else as a change of pace?

Those characters are over exposed and its a bit silly they manage to keep on getting out of prison in a "realistic" universe, focusing on smaller villains gives them break.

because now that these villains are being used all the time, they are starting to decay, instead of being epic threats, they came across as the freak of the week and Ock's last appearance was pretty lame (he can control metal, that's stupid, plus getting knocked out by electro wasn't very cool.)

They may be overexposed, but the stories focused around them are always different.

Having a B-list take center stage now and again helps prevent villain decay and if the villains appear less when they appear, its more of an event.

Each of the major A-list villains have only ever had two or three major stories. You're really exaggerating the number of times these villains are used.

It's also worth mentioning that rotating between several different B-list villains really dilutes the impact a villain should have. Look at Ultimate Fantastic Four, as an example.

That's just pure speculation on your part, it seemed like they are just trying to clean up their own mess that this point.

The very fact that the Ultimate universe is not the 616 line is, in of itself, proof that the Ultimate line is finite.

616 Spidey becoming a man child really blurs the line, he just looks older now, after they chucked out all of his character. He is single, lives with aunt, etc. Besides the fact one goes to high school and the other doesn't, their characters are very similar.

There may be similarities but they really are two different books. Just the simple age gap between the two is, alone, a huge distinction between the worlds of Amazing Spider-Man and Ultimate Spider-Man.

That's because 616 Kingpin has been around for 40 years, it would be unrealistic if he were still top dog after all that has happened, in that time.

Still he managed to avoid arrest more than Ultimate Fisk, who has been put in the slammer twice.

In the UU, wouldn't be unrealistic if Kingpin wasn't repalced by someone else after he got arrested again?

That has happened. Ever read the "Warriors" arc in USM?

So what Magneto and Gobby were b-list at one point, should they have stayed that way? There are no bad characters, only bad writers.

Why should the same villains get used over and over again, to the point where it seems all they do is lose all the time and start decay, shouldn't some new blood be introduced to prevent that?

Only if you want to turn the Ultimate universe into a carbon copy of the 616 line.

The Ultimate line started out taking all of the major characters--heroes and villans--from the 616 books, and then placing them in a 21st century setting without the burden of continuity. It's supposed to be something that everyone can pick up and read. Anyone with an interest in X-Men knows that Magneto is the major threat; anyone with an interest in Spider-Man knows that the Green Goblin and Dock are the major threats in that world. That's what people come to expect when reading an Ultimate X-Men or Ultimate Spider-Man book; they expect to see Magneto or the Green Goblin creating some major havoc, not Electro. When you start focusing on lame, B-list villains like the Sandman or Vulture, you start deviating from the whole purpose of the Ultimate line. See: Kirkman's run on Ultimate X-Men. His UXM stories are proof positive of why deviating away from the major players is a bad idea for the Ultimate books.

Did they have any other selling points in mind, because that's gone, you seem to think motives and characterization are not needed in the UU.

Is that what I said? No. So stop putting words in my mouth.

Its stupid analogy, this a serial format, movies aren't for the most part. Vol. I and II could be described as movies, the other tiles, no the analogy doesn't work at all.

My criticisms you avoided stand though, that the UU is in a state of decay because of rushed pacing (too similar to movie, if you will) and trying to fit too much stuff at once.

I didn't avoid them, I ****ing said in the beginning that the Ultimate line has become too bogged down in its own continuity, and that every book but USM has deviated from their original purpose.

How come they never have off beat or low key stories in the UU? That would be an interesting change of pace.

They have plenty of those, especially in USM. Again, you're exaggerating the number of times that the major villains are used.

 

[fifthfiend]

The only thing in the Ultimate universe that I liked were Daredevil and Elektra. Everything else sucked. Hard.

I thought Ultimate Daredevil and Elektra was the most terrible waste of a comic that I've ever read. It was the polar opposite of an "ultimate" anything.

They're not selfless though. Tony Stark isn't selfless, not by a longshot, the Incest Twins are trying to better their names, they're in it for themselves, and the others do it for the paycheck and because they have mental disorders and in the case of Cap, he doesn't know how to do anything else but be a giant prick and snap people's necks. Thor is really the only selfless one there.

Marvel characters haven't ever been uniformly selfless, at least not in the way you seem to describe. Tony Stark created Iron Man to save his own life and used him to fight threats to his own company. Spider-Man fought criminals out of guilt and anger. Hank Pym developed superpowers for himself specifically to act out his own insecurities. Wanda and Pietro started out as arguably worse people in the 616 than they did in the Ultimate universe considering as they never had the Ultimate versions' years of psychological abuse from their father to explain them signing up to become terrorists. Basically every single one of the X-Men is a total headcase. The Fantastic Four haven't ever particularly given a **** about anything outside their own family dramas or wacky science adventures or whatever.

Any argument that the Ultimates "aren't superheroes" applies at least as well to the FF and the X-Men and I mean, it's not even necessarily an argument that I would disagree with, but that doesn't really translate into an argument for them being worse than any team which could be so described.

I said he was a compelling villain, a real force to be reckoned with. He's not a poor man's anything.

Could you repeat that? I couldn't hear you over Ultimate Magneto getting his guts hacked out by Wolverine and one-shotted by Cyclops.

I mean they've weak-sauced the **** out of 616 Mags over the years but there was at least a time when he was actually ****in' tough and scary and when he showed up the X-Men were actually like "Holy **** it's Magneto, we are totally ****ed." Ultimate Magneto the violent psychopath might be a little bit interesting, if he weren't Ultimate Magneto the violent psychopath who gets the **** beat out of him by pretty much everybody.

 

[Blader5489]

I have no interest in continuing these massive quote wars, so I'll just sum up my point with this post and be done with it.

Simply put, the Ultimate line is designed at targeting a mass audience. It only focuses around the same, small group of characters and builds stories around the same cast because those are the characters that the most amount of readers can identify with. What you're looking for is to expand the Ultimate universe and put the spotlight on smaller characters, and that's not what the Ultimate line is all about. It's supposed to be a small world; it's supposed to be simple; it's supposed to be like a movie, where the focus is on the major players that you already know, not the minor second-stringers.

Is the Ultimate line in a state of decay? Yes, and that's partly because some writers (like Loeb or Kirkman) are doing exactly what you want them to do, and that's focus on a wider array of characters who do not hold the kind of presence that traditional major villains like Magneto and the Green goblin do. Consequently, the Ultimate line has become too bogged down in its own continuity and its own huge casts of characters, which have made books like Ultiamte X-Men and Ultimate Fantastic Four virtually inaccessible, or Ultimates 3 which has become a carbon copy of the Avengers. Supposedly, Ultimatum is being written to give the Ultimate universe the shot in the arm it needs, but that remains to be seen.

The point is, the Ultimate line is supposed to only the biggest and most popular characters, while taking advantage of the intrinsic clean slate. And for a while (Ultimates 1 and 2, Ultimate Spider-Man, the early runs on Ultimate X-Men) it accomplished this perfectly. Now most the UU has become redundant and unreadable, and it's (not so ironically) exactly because of what you want it do: it's expanding. Focusing on a wider array of characters who do not have the popularity of the mainstream heroes and villains has become the death knell of the the Ultimate line.

Hopefully, Ultimate Origins and Ultimatum can fix this. But whether they do or not, my above point still stands, and that's all I can really say on the subject.

I'm done.

 

[The Overlord]

GyLocke has your answer.



I didn't say he was a bad character, just that Ultimate Magneto is a better villain..

Fair enough, I still think he's bland.

They may be overexposed, but the stories focused around them are always different.

They have started to run out ofideas for these guys, whicvh is way the last doc Ock arc sucked and why Gobby got killed off and why kingpin is in jail again.

Heck its pretty clear their running out of ideas on most of the ultimate books, because of their rushed pacing.

Each of the major A-list villains have only ever had two or three major stories. You're really exaggerating the number of times these villains are used.

It's also worth mentioning that rotating between several different B-list villains really dilutes the impact a villain should have. Look at Ultimate Fantastic Four, as an example..

I disagree, UFF has the best rogues gallery in the UU, I love Ultimate mole man, is goofy and dangerous. That's how you do a funny villain, not recyle the same joke over and over again, like Ultimate Shocker.

The very fact that the Ultimate universe is not the 616 line is, in of itself, proof that the Ultimate line is finite..

speculation, not fact.

There may be similarities but they really are two different books. Just the simple age gap between the two is, alone, a huge distinction between the worlds of Amazing Spider-Man and Ultimate Spider-Man...

The age gap hasd become irrelevant, 616 Parker is nothing more than a man child nowadays, he might as be someone with mind set of a high schooler in adult's body.

That has happened. Ever read the "Warriors" arc in USM?...

That was lame, hammerhead wasnothing more than a glorified mook, not a real threat.

Besides how would it be realistic if kingpin was still on top despite being arrested twice? That doesn't seem realistic.

Only if you want to turn the Ultimate universe into a carbon copy of the 616 line.

The Ultimate line started out taking all of the major characters--heroes and villans--from the 616 books, and then placing them in a 21st century setting without the burden of continuity. It's supposed to be something that everyone can pick up and read. Anyone with an interest in X-Men knows that Magneto is the major threat; anyone with an interest in Spider-Man knows that the Green Goblin and Dock are the major threats in that world. That's what people come to expect when reading an Ultimate X-Men or Ultimate Spider-Man book; they expect to see Magneto or the Green Goblin creating some major havoc, not Electro. When you start focusing on lame, B-list villains like the Sandman or Vulture, you start deviating from the whole purpose of the Ultimate line. See: Kirkman's run on Ultimate X-Men. His UXM stories are proof positive of why deviating away from the major players is a bad idea for the Ultimate books.?...

well sandman showed up in the mvoies, why not give him an arc.
DCUA focued on simialr characters and they did.

Bruce Timm is just a better writer than those guys. He made a DC universe not burden by insane continuity and made B-list and D-list villains like mad Hatter, mr. Freeze, Brainiac and Clock King more interesting, if he can do that, there is no excuse why others can't (conisdering that DCU is a way bigger continuity mess than MU.)

Is that what I said? No. So stop putting words in my mouth.

That's the impression I get.

I didn't avoid them, I ****ing said in the beginning that the Ultimate line has become too bogged down in its own continuity, and that every book but USM has deviated from their original purpose.

Seriously if that's the only selling point the uU, has then its a pretty shallow universe.

They have plenty of those, especially in USM. Again, you're exaggerating the number of times that the major villains are used.

Not enough, the pacing was too rushed again (it was really stupid using Deadpool and Omega Red in USM). Those characters were a disgrace.

They need slow down the pacing, because the UU is just burning it self out otherwise.

 

[The Overlord]

I have no interest in continuing these massive quote wars, so I'll just sum up my point with this post and be done with it.

Simply put, the Ultimate line is designed at targeting a mass audience. It only focuses around the same, small group of characters and builds stories around the same cast because those are the characters that the most amount of readers can identify with. What you're looking for is to expand the Ultimate universe and put the spotlight on smaller characters, and that's not what the Ultimate line is all about. It's supposed to be a small world; it's supposed to be simple; it's supposed to be like a movie, where the focus is on the major players that you already know, not the minor second-stringers..

That, what makes it a shallow universe and that's why DCUA is way better.

Is the Ultimate line in a state of decay? Yes, and that's partly because some writers (like Loeb or Kirkman) are doing exactly what you want them to do, and that's focus on a wider array of characters who do not hold the kind of presence that traditional major villains like Magneto and the Green goblin do. Consequently, the Ultimate line has become too bogged down in its own continuity and its own huge casts of characters, which have made books like Ultiamte X-Men and Ultimate Fantastic Four virtually inaccessible, or Ultimates 3 which has become a carbon copy of the Avengers. Supposedly, Ultimatum is being written to give the Ultimate universe the shot in the arm it needs, but that remains to be seen...

Yes, because everyone was clammering for ultimate Cable and ******ed hawkeye. way to put words into other people's mouth.

Also Bruce Timm did exactly what you said couldn't be done, is a a good writer can do it.

The point is, the Ultimate line is supposed to only the biggest and most popular characters, while taking advantage of the intrinsic clean slate. And for a while (Ultimates 1 and 2, Ultimate Spider-Man, the early runs on Ultimate X-Men) it accomplished this perfectly. Now most the UU has become redundant and unreadable, and it's (not so ironically) exactly because of what you want it do: it's expanding. Focusing on a wider array of characters who do not have the popularity of the mainstream heroes and villains has become the death knell of the the Ultimate line.
...

Bruce Timm expanded his universe with JLU, so stop hiding behind that sad excuse.

Hopefully, Ultimate Origins and Ultimatum can fix this. But whether they do or not, my above point still stands, and that's all I can really say on the subject....

Yeah because that has worked so well for DC in the past.

 

[Blader5489]

Apples and oranges. The DCUA is exactly what the Ultimate universe shouldn't be (i.e. wrapped up in its own continuity and drifting away from the major players so it can focus on B-list characters that the general public knows nothing about). Hell, the current state of the Ultimate universe is exactly what the Ultimate line shouldn't be.

You really just don't get it and there's no point in continuing this because you're so damn obstinate about comparing the Ultimate line to 616 or DC. It is not those things. Get that through your head.

 

[Artistsean]

When the Ultimates comics started it had a blank slate, no history or continuity to worry about.
When they started introducing characters in X-Men and Spider-Man they seemed new, important. I felt like I had to buy each issue.
But, with things like TV shows, movies, and comics, it was hard to keep it fresh, new, and exciting.
I don't really bother looking at any of them anymore.
While Bruce Timm did expand the JLA into the JLU it was easier for him because they only had about 2 seasons of the JLA and 3 of the JLU, and they were done after that. If they were still going on they would have problems keeping it fresh too.
Its also not fair to try and compare the DCU to Ultimates, they are different. DCU is more like the regular Marvel U than the Ultimate. The Ultimate line is more like Allstar or Elseworlds.

Also they don't have the problem the Ultimate universe has, trying to keep things small, connected, and more down to earth and realistic, while still trying to make it a great comic.
What TV shows usually do, I think, is have their show's focus evolve or grow, and not just be about one thing the entire time. Maybe the Ultimate Comics can do something like that. I don't know.

One thing I like about the Ultimate Comics is how they take small time or lame characters and can make them cooler and interesting.
I don't know if I have a specific point.

 

[The Overlord]

Apples and oranges. The DCUA is exactly what the Ultimate universe shouldn't be (i.e. wrapped up in its own continuity and drifting away from the major players so it can focus on B-list characters that the general public knows nothing about). Hell, the current state of the Ultimate universe is exactly what the Ultimate line shouldn't be.

You really just don't get it and there's no point in continuing this because you're so damn obstinate about comparing the Ultimate line to 616 or DC. It is not those things. Get that through your head.

Wrong again, BKV expanded upon B-list villains (like Sinister and Mojo) are you saying his run on UXM was bad?

The lines have blurred so completely between UU and 616 universe, that comparisons are fair at this point. Heck after Civil war, the avengers are Ultimates lite, so Marvel itself invites these comparisons.

But then by your own accounts then its a shallow universe, more obsessed with epic events and trying to top themselves by burning through 40 years of storying telling in 8 of story telling (which was why we got the ultimate clone Saga so quickly, with bad results.)

If that's the case, then the Ultimate Universe should have had a planned bending, because otherwise its so obsessed with being more like movie then comic, that gets burned out by its own pacing and becomes really shallow, really quickly.

 

[Ion Kenshin]

bad results for ult. clone saga i throughly enjoyed that arc and thought it was very well done

 

[BrianWilly]

The problem with the Ultimate universe was innately inherent within itself, its own conception, from the very beginning. So many of us have been saying this right from the outset. The notion of the Ultimate universe was to create a modernized, clean slate for iconic characters free of the continuity that often scares readers away, yes? Well there's the problem, right there in that sentence. There is physically no way for you to be free of continuity in a serialized comic. That's the whole concept of an ongoing story, that it builds on itself, that events from the past matter to events in the future. It has nothing to do with not focusing on the correct characters or adding too many characters or whatever. Unless you make the story finite, there's no way to stop continuity from accumulating.

Look at Ultimate Spider-Man; it's got something like over a hundred and twenty issues already over the course of more than eight years. Even if you view it within its own contained microcosm, it's still got more continuity and backstory within itself than can ever be casually explained to any new reader, or even most old readers. Moreover, Peter should have graduated from high school twice already in that timespan, so no longer is the comic even "modern," merely recycling elements of itself. So that's both of the goals of the Ultimate line -- continuity-free accessibility, along with modernization -- that USM could never achieve, and never could achieve in the first place, and not because if failed or anything, but because it is what it is.

Suppose we use your idea, Blader, and only focused on iconic, significant personalities of the mythos instead of cramming in more and more characters to "Ultimatize." Well, then, now we would have the Green Goblin or Dr. Octopus or Kingpin or whatever attacking Peter's school or kidnapping his friends or robbing banks...over...and over...and over...and over..and over again. The same sorts of stories about the same sorts of personalities...how many different ways can anyone come up with for the same batches of characters to do the same bunch of things to each other? And obviously it's not just a problem with the UU; mainstream cyclical comics face the same problem with every single new issue. The difference is that the Ultimate line was created for the expressed, pointed purpose of not having that problem. Which is impossible. There was no way. The whole point of the Ultimate Universe was and is to be fresher and newer and more accessible than the mainstream universe, but there's no way that anything can be always new. It literally defies the definition.

And some of us have been saying this, from day one. That the Ultimate universe has no real point, it's just some alternate universe, and it could never sustain its own steam. And it's not like some profound notion or something, it was always the case of stating the obvious. And lo and behold, here we are, eight years in...the Ultimate universe has no real point, it's no different from any other alternate universe that Exiles might visit or something, and it hasn't been sustaining its own steam.

I guess what I'm really trying to say is...is anyone actually surprised?

 

[venom892]

Great post.Really there is no point in the ultimate universe anymore.I loved it in the beginning but Ultimate X-men and Spider-man have lost a lot of steam.I dropped both quite a while ago.I haven't even tried to read Ultimates vol. 3.

 

[The Overlord]

The problem with the Ultimate universe was innately inherent within itself, its own conception, from the very beginning. So many of us have been saying this right from the outset. The notion of the Ultimate universe was to create a modernized, clean slate for iconic characters free of the continuity that often scares readers away, yes? Well there's the problem, right there in that sentence. There is physically no way for you to be free of continuity in a serialized comic. That's the whole concept of an ongoing story, that it builds on itself, that events from the past matter to events in the future. It has nothing to do with not focusing on the correct characters or adding too many characters or whatever. Unless you make the story finite, there's no way to stop continuity from accumulating.

Look at Ultimate Spider-Man; it's got something like over a hundred and twenty issues already over the course of more than eight years. Even if you view it within its own contained microcosm, it's still got more continuity and backstory within itself than can ever be casually explained to any new reader, or even most old readers. Moreover, Peter should have graduated from high school twice already in that timespan, so no longer is the comic even "modern," merely recycling elements of itself. So that's both of the goals of the Ultimate line -- continuity-free accessibility, along with modernization -- that USM could never achieve, and never could achieve in the first place, and not because if failed or anything, but because it is what it is.

Suppose we use your idea, Blader, and only focused on iconic, significant personalities of the mythos instead of cramming in more and more characters to "Ultimatize." Well, then, now we would have the Green Goblin or Dr. Octopus or Kingpin or whatever attacking Peter's school or kidnapping his friends or robbing banks...over...and over...and over...and over..and over again. The same sorts of stories about the same sorts of personalities...how many different ways can anyone come up with for the same batches of characters to do the same bunch of things to each other? And obviously it's not just a problem with the UU; mainstream cyclical comics face the same problem with every single new issue. The difference is that the Ultimate line was created for the expressed, pointed purpose of not having that problem. Which is impossible. There was no way. The whole point of the Ultimate Universe was and is to be fresher and newer and more accessible than the mainstream universe, but there's no way that anything can be always new. It literally defies the definition.

And some of us have been saying this, from day one. That the Ultimate universe has no real point, it's just some alternate universe, and it could never sustain its own steam. And it's not like some profound notion or something, it was always the case of stating the obvious. And lo and behold, here we are, eight years in...the Ultimate universe has no real point, it's no different from any other alternate universe that Exiles might visit or something, and it hasn't been sustaining its own steam.

I guess what I'm really trying to say is...is anyone actually surprised?

Exactly that's the point Blader is missing, the UU is not always going to be fresh and comparing it to a movie doesn't work, because a movie ends after a few hours, this has gone on for 8 years. It doesn't work that way.

I think the only way to have kept the UU interesting is to have had more off beat stories and give interesting spins on kinda lame characters from the 616 universe, that's what BVK did and it worked well for him.

This popcorn movie has gone stale, it should have ended long ago, so *gasp* maybe they should try things like characterization, motives and back stories with almost every chracter, not just a select few.

 

[Blader5489]

Exactly that's the point Blader is missing, the UU is not always going to be fresh and comparing it to a movie doesn't work, because a movie ends after a few hours, this has gone on for 8 years. It doesn't work that way.

How the hell am I missing that point? I've said several times now that, with the exception of USM, the Ultimate line has become exactly what it shouldn't be: a universe tangled up in its own continuity with a cast of characters constantly being bloated by new "ultimized" heroes and villains.

You read what you want to read, but I've already said a number of times that the Ultimate universe has largely become stale and redundant, so don't accuse me of being oblivious to that.

 

[The Overlord]

How the hell am I missing that point? I've said several times now that, with the exception of USM, the Ultimate line has become exactly what it shouldn't be: a universe tangled up in its own continuity with a cast of characters constantly being bloated by new "ultimized" heroes and villains.

You read what you want to read, but I've already said a number of times that the Ultimate universe has largely become stale and redundant, so don't accuse me of being oblivious to that.

You haven't acknowledged why though and its the same principal you say was what made the UU great in the first place, thus is its downfall.

You said the UU is similar to popcorn movie, the problem is then you have popcorn movie pacing on a comic book serial, those two things just don't match up.

The problem isn't that they the explored the UU to much, the problem is tried to do too many things to quickly.

If the uU is as shallow as you claimed at is (because popcorn moves are ultiamtely shallow), it should have ended in 2004 or 2006, after that it isn't a fun movie anymore, its movie that has gone on for too long and should have ended long ago.

 

[Blader5489]

You haven't acknowledged why though

I haven't?

a universe tangled up in its own continuity with a cast of characters constantly being bloated by new "ultimized" heroes and villains.

That's the "why" and I've said as much a number of times already.

and its the same principal you say was what made the UU great in the first place, thus is its downfall.

YES. That's what I SAID. The Ultimate universe has become exactly what it set out not to be (see: above). How many times do I need to repeat myself before it starts to sink in for you?

 

[fifthfiend]

I've said several times now that, with the exception of USM, the Ultimate line has become exactly what it shouldn't be: a universe tangled up in its own continuity with a cast of characters constantly being bloated by new "ultimized" heroes and villains.

That isn't at all the point, which you are still totally missing.

That's the "why" and I've said as much a number of times already.

No, it's the what. The why which explains that what is what you continue to miss.

...I mean I'm actually not trying to be a jerk here and I really don't personally care about either side on this, I'm just saying dude, BW made a particular point and you're honestly not catching it.

 

[Blader5489]

That isn't at all the point, which you are still totally missing.

Well then please enlighten me.

No, it's the what. The why which explains that what is what you continue to miss.

No, the what is that the Ultimate line has become largely redundant (gee that sounds familiar). The why is because of it's convoluted continuity and bloated cast of pointless ultimizations. <-- That is the reason, the why, for the UU's state of decline.

 

[fifthfiend]

Well then please enlighten me.

You kind of don't seem to be interested in anything anybody else has to say at this point but I'll give it a shot.

In short, BW said that what has happened to the UU - namely, its increasingly convoluted continuity etc etc - is happening for the simple reason that it is a comics universe, and continuity is inevitable in any extended comics uiniverse. It does not make sense to say "the Ultimate line has become exactly what it shouldn't be", because it is utterly impossible for it not to become that, because that is what any comic book which tells a serialized story inevitably becomes, as a result of the simple fact of its existence. The alternative is the Green goblin attacking Spider Man in every single comic, over and over again, forever.

 

[Blader5489]

You kind of don't seem to be interested in anything anybody else has to say at this point but I'll give it a shot.

If that were true, I wouldn't be posting here to begin with.

In short, BW said that what has happened to the UU - namely, its increasingly convoluted continuity etc etc - is happening for the simple reason that it is a comics universe, and continuity is inevitable in any extended comics uiniverse. It does not make sense to say "the Ultimate line has become exactly what it shouldn't be", because it is utterly impossible for it not to become that, because that is what any comic book which tells a serialized story inevitably becomes, as a result of the simple fact of its existence. The alternative is the Green goblin attacking Spider Man in every single comic, over and over again, forever.

I don't see how that's any different from what I've been saying. You're right that serialized fiction leads to continuity, which, after 8 years, has made the Ultimate line no longer as accessible as it could or should be--which is just what I've been saying. I don't see how I'm missing the point here, you're just adding something new to what we've both been saying.

 

[The Overlord]

If that were true, I wouldn't be posting here to begin with.



I don't see how that's any different from what I've been saying. You're right that serialized fiction leads to continuity, which, after 8 years, has made the Ultimate line no longer as accessible as it could or should be--which is just what I've been saying. I don't see how I'm missing the point here, you're just adding something new to what we've both been saying.

So then the only selling point of the UU was that it had no continuity, which everyone knows wouldn't have been the case in a few years, so the whole concept was doomed from the start. It seems kinda shallow to me.

If that was the case, then it should have had a planned end game. It clearly doesn't because if it did, stuff like Vol. 3 of Ultimates would have never seen the light of day.

 

[Ion Kenshin]

I dont think that the point of UU was to have no continuity at all. I read that more as them saying it was a fresh more current start for anyone trying to get into the said characters without having to know any of the backstory or continuity that came before it. Imagine a kid maybe 10 11 years old who picks up Ult Spidey #1 without even being aware or caring about regular 616 spidey, to that kid everything that happens in Ult Spidey from issue 1 onward is canon to him thats his continuity. Thats the way i took them to mean not having to worry about previous continuity.