Venom now has a stand alone film, according to the studio.

[jrd550]

Yeah I wish Venom had never been introduced in Spidey 3 - Sony probably did just so that they would have the rights..

 

[The Joker]

Well, I can think of some in my home town but not as famous ;P, though.

Seriously? You know people who blamed a complete stranger for ruining their lives?

But you have to keep in mind this is still fiction and more importantly a comic.

True. But, as far as fantasy goes, leave that to the powers, gadgets etc. Lets have characterization and emotions of characters be as real as possible.

As I mentioned before, if you're going to have a personal vendetta between two characters, have it based on something tangible. Something grounded is some kind of believability.

It makes the conflict between the two characters far more realistic. Because when they confront eachother, and Venom accuses Spider-Man of ruining his life, you know there is something in that.

Did you notice in SM-3, when Venom said to Peter "I'm thinking humiliation. Kind of like how you humiliated me. Do you remember? Do you remember what you did to me?". And, Peter had no reply to this. He couldn't. Because he did humiliate Brock. Even though Brock brought it on himself. That makes it more exciting, IMO. To know there is a basis for conflict there.

Even though we know the villain is in the wrong, there is an actual basis for hatred, and not some fabricated BS based on nothing.

That is exactly the point, to use him in such things a solo movie, you need to change the guy.

Which only proves he's not material for a solo movie if they character needs changing. That's my point.

Well I just gave you an example, have Eddie as medium for Alien to try and accomplish its own personal agenda, after all it is an alien; who knows what knowledge it possesses.

Have Eddie used as a puppet for the symbiote's own plans? You're a nice, respectful guy, AIRWOLF, so I don't mean any offence when I say that sounds terrible.

Brock reduced to a puppet for the alien symbiote? That to you is an improvement to the character?

Thank-you. Yeah, I’m hanging onto my optimism, for reasons that might allow Venom to become more than what he is. I mean even if movie manages a small success, Venom stories in comics might change for the better. If they don't, well, I just wouldn’t care anymore.

Good attitude to have.

LOL, not really…but I won’t object to it either.

That would be a drastic change to the character. Carnage is not a mastermind type villain. He's just a wild killing machine.

Mindless slaughter is his passion.

I agree, but those guys are billionaires, it wouldn’t hurt their pockets to throw Venom fans a bone now would it. the only worthwhile project I think would be next three SM movies.

I'd rather see an X-Men 4, to make up for X-Men 3.

 

[AIRWOLF]

Have Eddie used as a puppet for the symbiote's own plans? You're a nice, respectful guy, AIRWOLF, so I don't mean any offence when I say that sounds terrible.

Brock reduced to a puppet for the alien symbiote? That to you is an improvement to the character?

Well, that's not really what I meant. If you had knowledge of universe handed it to you, would you deny it? It would be kind of hard to resist now would it. So Eddie would not be just some mere puppet for an alien, rather he would accept to give it a home in return for share in power and knowledge the alien possesses. Suppose that alien never experienced hatred for anything before, he learned it from a human...from Peter Parker and then Eddie, so after being abandoned by Spider-Man, alien would also feel hatred for him, so bonding with someone who also feels the same way about Peter/Spiderman would be much more natural. Now you can argue why it has to be Eddie, well again this is a comic and to keep it close to original, so one can argue that alien took Eddie as a precaution so that it is not completely exposed. What I mean by that is, Eddie might be too blind by his lust for revenge to see that alien might not be revealing all its agendas or some hidden knowledge. So all the while, Eddie and Alien are in it togehter, but at the same time there is more going on behind the scenes.

To me that sounds acceptable, bit better than usual Venom stories. It truly sounds cosmic, because Spidey would be dealing with a being completely out of this world, literally.

I absolutely hated when they reduced that alien to mere parasite, well it was from the beginning ;P. That to me is more of insult to Venom character than anything else. When people usually talk about Aliens, its where they have come from? How advanced are they? And it wouldn't hurt to have such an enemy for Spidey, who is just not some mirror image of Spidey but an enemy highly advanced in many aspects of life.

I thank-you for your respect. You, I must confess, didn't seem like nicest of guys, at first, but later after reading your posts; I realized you were stating valid points about Venom. Because Venom is controversial villain, fans don't take too kindly to his flaws. But bashing someone is something even I am against without valid arguments. But you didn't anything like it like many say here, so, I pay my respect to you . I hope anything I said didn't seem to harsh.

 

[Visionary]

Yeah I wish Venom had never been introduced in Spidey 3 - Sony probably did just so that they would have the rights..

Yeah, now you wish, you bastards should have shut your begging ass mouths for Venom to be in SM3. Sony/Marvel did it because the majority begged for it. Besides, Sony owns all of Spider-Man characters movie rights. So Venom's movie has to be released through Sony. Just like FOX owns X-Men characters movie rights, which is why Wolverine is being released by FOX.

 

[Arcturus]

Whoa, slow down homeslice! Hit the pause button! Stop! Rewind! Whatever!

Don't apply that to all Venom fans, Visionary, I for one liked movie incarnation of Venom as stated plenty of times before.

 

[Visionary]

Did someone just call me HOMESLICE?

 

[Arcturus]

You bet!

 

[omid17]

Yeah, now you wish, you bastards should have shut your begging ass mouths for Venom to be in SM3. Sony/Marvel did it because the majority begged for it. Besides, Sony owns all of Spider-Man characters movie rights. So Venom's movie has to be released through Sony. Just like FOX owns X-Men characters movie rights, which is why Wolverine is being released by FOX.

me along with other fans that were disappointed, thought a notorious Marvel villain (Venom), would of had at least 15 minutes of screen time

 

[jrd550]

Yeah, now you wish, you bastards should have shut your begging ass mouths for Venom to be in SM3. Sony/Marvel did it because the majority begged for it. Besides, Sony owns all of Spider-Man characters movie rights. So Venom's movie has to be released through Sony. Just like FOX owns X-Men characters movie rights, which is why Wolverine is being released by FOX.

speak for yourself, I never asked for venom in SM3...

 

[Lantern Venom]

You mean the two guards he killed so he could escape to try and kill Spidey?

One was in a church but yes that's what I mean. You may not like that but it was an early signal that Venom was a different character. He was always conflicted.

He only works as an enemy to Spider-Man. That's his entire basis for being. He doesn't work solo.

Sure he does. Apart from Spidey, Venom tries to give his life meaning. He tries to realize Eddie Brock's dreams.The problem is that his ego and immaturity constantly get in the way.


Raimi made Venom more compelling than he ever was in the comic books, by giving him genuine reasons for hating Peter. Not the ludicrous crap the comic books spewed.

Raimi gave us a cookie-cutter character with no backstory. He was nothing more than a liar who threw a hissy fit when he got caught. There was no set-up for his emotional state and certainly no intimidation factor with Twig Boy involved. This was the worst gutting of a character since Schumaker destroyed Bane.


"Spider-Man caught a serial killer. And even though we never met, and he doesn't even know me, I hate him. He ruined my life. He has to die!!!!!!"

Brock had a life of constant failure that set him up for his displaced anger. The one time he thought he suceeded ( in his mind, playing by the rules ) life still beat him down. That's what makes Venom so great. Even at his worst, he still believes that he's the good guy.


Sam was spot on about Venom. Spot on. He saw the character for exactly what he is.

Blowpher Venom was weak in appearance and concept. He was doomed from the start. A Venom adapted closely from the 616 continuity would have been stellar. "I like being bad" is antithetical to everything that Venom was in the comics and it's one of the cheesiest lines I have ever heard.


Nothing. That's why I know this movie will fail. Venom's story was done and dusted in SM-3.

All this spin off is, if it even happens, is just a shameless, shallow money maker. Nothing more.

Carnage has even less dimension than Brock.So no. Two shallow characters in conflict?

Yuck.
Don't make the movie

It's ironic that you say that since Carnage is Spiderman's most Jokeresque villian. They are both mass murders who's true delight is the sheer agony of their victims. That's why Carnage sought out Joker in the 1995 crossover. Of course, Joker's sense of style got in the way but the base similarities are still there.

 

[The Joker]

One was in a church but yes that's what I mean. You may not like that but it was an early signal that Venom was a different character. He was always conflicted.

But, they never went anywhere with it. Sure he felt sorry for them. But, he still kept killing to satisfy his own petty vendetta against Spidey.

Yawn.

Sure he does. Apart from Spidey, Venom tries to give his life meaning. He tries to realize Eddie Brock's dreams.The problem is that his ego and immaturity constantly get in the way.

Trying to kill Spider-Man is giving his life meaning? Pull the other one, it's got bells on it. Venom is exactly what he is portrayed as, a loser with a chip on his shoulder who's blaming someone else for his own loserness.

Raimi gave us a cookie-cutter character with no backstory. He was nothing more than a liar who threw a hissy fit when he got caught. There was no set-up for his emotional state and certainly no intimidation factor with Twig Boy involved. This was the worst gutting of a character since Schumaker destroyed Bane.

Raimi gave us a character who was genuine in his vendetta against Spider-Man. Raimi made him a character who had a real connection to the person he hated. When two characters are in conflict against eachother, it makes it so much more satisfying when there's a real basis for that conflict.

Not some delusional BS cooked up in the mind of a pathetic loser. As for the intimidation factor, that's down to the choice of actor. The writing of the character was fine.

Brock had a life of constant failure that set him up for his displaced anger. The one time he thought he suceeded ( in his mind, playing by the rules ) life still beat him down. That's what makes Venom so great. Even at his worst, he still believes that he's the good guy.

No, that's what makes Venom so crap. His whole foundation of hatred against Spidey is absolutely and utterly baseless. Look at all the great comic book feuds. Dr Doom Vs Reed Richards. Lex Luthor vs Superman. Green Goblin vs Spidey. Batman vs Joker. Xavier vs Magneto.

None of their feuds just stemmed from nothing. They didn't develop a hatred from nothing. They were brought into conflict with eachother. Their paths crossed. They developed their feuds. Venom's was conjured up from nothing.

That's why the movie version of the character is far superior. The feud stemmed from real conflict between Peter and Brock. That's what makes good viewing. That's what makes good characters.

Blowpher Venom was weak in appearance and concept. He was doomed from the start. A Venom adapted closely from the 616 continuity would have been stellar.

No, it wouldn't. Audiences just wouldn't buy Brock developing a severe hatred like that for a total stranger out of thin air. If you're going to have a personal enemy, then have a connection with that enemy.

It's why 616 Venom is so weak. His entire foundation of hatred against Spidey is baseless. When you look at him whining about Spidey ruining his life, you're just embarrassed for him.

"I like being bad" is antithetical to everything that Venom was in the comics

Exactly. Which is why he was a superior version of the character. None of that anti-hero rubbish.

It's ironic that you say that since Carnage is Spiderman's most Jokeresque villian.

The only thing Joker and Carnage have in common is their witty dialogue. Carnage is a mindless killer who does random killing for the hell of it. It's his only goal.

Joker's murders are part of his various plans. He's a mastermind criminal. He has style, finesse, and intelligence. He has goals beyond just going around killing because it's fun. Insane goals, but goals nonetheless.

Not to mention some depth and substance to his madness. Like what was shown in The Killing Joke.

 

[Visionary]

speak for yourself, I never asked for venom in SM3...

I'm not speaking for myself, I don't even want the character in comic books. And I did say the "MAJORITY" not everyone.

me along with other fans that were disappointed, thought a notorious Marvel villain (Venom), would of had at least 15 minutes of screen time

He got the time he deserved for an overrated one trick pony villain. But hey, Marvel has always found ways to continue to make money off of him (enter the Venom movie), no matter how disappointing he is, because that's how Marvel pimp Venom.

 

[Uber Venom]

Who knows if this will even be completed. I wouldn't be shocked if it was scrapped a few months down the line.

His death in SM3 backed them into a corner, in my opinion. To have Topher back and carry the SM3 story over couldn't really work. Starting over would be the best way to go, but even that seems stupid. Who knows.

 

[Visionary]

They'll most likely do a whole new story, it'll be its own movie. Kind of like when Marvel started publishing Venom's own titles. It's like saying, let's make some more fast cash, Venom fans won't notice that we're giving them fool's gold.

 

[Cagefighterkip]

Who knows if this will even be completed. I wouldn't be shocked if it was scrapped a few months down the line.

His death in SM3 backed them into a corner, in my opinion. To have Topher back and carry the SM3 story over couldn't really work. Starting over would be the best way to go, but even that seems stupid. Who knows.

topher is NOT coming back. it'll be a new actor, he said no to a spinoff early on...

 

[The Joker]

topher is NOT coming back. it'll be a new actor, he said no to a spinoff early on...

Smart man.

Listening to him on the commentary on the DVD, you hear him and Raimi say how they concluded Venom's story nicely.

 

[Cagefighterkip]

Smart man.

Listening to him on the commentary on the DVD, you hear him and Raimi say how they concluded Venom's story nicely.

smart: YES
conclude Venom's story "nicely:" NO
they damned well concluded it, but they did not do it "nicely"

 

[The Joker]

I take it you wanted Venom to live?

 

[Cagefighterkip]

I take it you wanted Venom to live?

very much so, i was like "venom lives, carnage for part4"

 

[Lantern Venom]

But, they never went anywhere with it. Sure he felt sorry for them. But, he still kept killing to satisfy his own petty vendetta against Spidey.

Yawn.

It was the lead-in to the Lethal Protector. People who don't like that eventual transformation weren't paying attention to the subtle hints dropped in his early appearances.


Trying to kill Spider-Man is giving his life meaning? Pull the other one, it's got bells on it. Venom is exactly what he is portrayed as, a loser with a chip on his shoulder who's blaming someone else for his own loserness.

He's wanted to exorcise his demons so he could move onto something bigger. Sure, that is crazy but it makes a twisted sense.



Raimi gave us a character who was genuine in his vendetta against Spider-Man.

Raimi gave us a paper thin story point. Brock nursed his vendetta against Spidey for years in the comics. In the movie, we got the lazy fake photo story. Whoever came up with that pathetic plot point should give part of their paycheck back.


No, that's what makes Venom so crap. His whole foundation of hatred against Spidey is absolutely and utterly baseless.

Venom is so different and great because he & Spidey wasn't the classic good vs. evil clash. Venom wasn't after power or money or a killing spree. He wanted to reclaim his life. The story was as much Venom vs. Venom as it was Venom vs. Spidey. That is compelling literature.


That's why the movie version of the character is far superior. The feud stemmed from real conflict between Peter and Brock. That's what makes good viewing. That's what makes good characters.

The movie feud stemmed from a one-dimensional professional shortcut angle. That is crap. The 616 version was elaborate.

No, it wouldn't. Audiences just wouldn't buy Brock developing a severe hatred like that for a total stranger out of thin air. If you're going to have a personal enemy, then have a connection with that enemy.

Joker-Bats, Lex-Supes, Hulk-Leader are all feuds that started out as the hero getting in the way of the villian's plot and then it grew to be personal. With Venom and Spidey, it was only personal right from the start.

It's why 616 Venom is so weak. His entire foundation of hatred against Spidey is baseless. When you look at him whining about Spidey ruining his life, you're just embarrassed for him.

He is such a tragic character because he doesn't really want to be what he becomes. He's constantly at war with himself and never knows where to go or where to turn. That's not embarrassing, that's deep and sympathetic.



The only thing Joker and Carnage have in common is their witty dialogue. Carnage is a mindless killer who does random killing for the hell of it. It's his only goal.


Joker's murders are part of his various plans. He's a mastermind criminal. He has style, finesse, and intelligence. He has goals beyond just going around killing because it's fun. Insane goals, but goals nonetheless.

Not to mention some depth and substance to his madness. Like what was shown in The Killing Joke.

The Killing Joke and Mind Bomb delve into each character's psyche. Each one is a nihilistic portrait of men who can only find pleasure in the suffering of others. That's what makes them so much alike despite their different methods. They are not the same but the crux of the characters is very similar.

 

[The Joker]

very much so, i was like "venom lives, carnage for part4"

Technically, you don't need Venom to have Carnage. Just the symbiote to spawn Carnage.

It was the lead-in to the Lethal Protector. People who don't like that eventual transformation weren't paying attention to the subtle hints dropped in his early appearances.

No, they were not. He killed, when he didn't even have to. He could have just rendered the guards unconscious. But, he killed them. Second, there's a difference between feeling sorry for killing someone, and appointing yourself a protector of the people.

That came completely out of left field.

He's wanted to exorcise his demons so he could move onto something bigger. Sure, that is crazy but it makes a twisted sense.

It doesn't make any sense. Spider-Man was not an element in his life. He was a stranger. Killing him makes no sense to excercise any demons. No sense at all. Not even the twisted kind.

That's why his motivations are lame. They don't make sense even in the crazy sense.

Raimi gave us a paper thin story point. Brock nursed his vendetta against Spidey for years in the comics.

In the comics, Brock's grudge was based on NOTHING!!! The movie's Brock had a grudge based on something concrete.

Venom is so different and great because he & Spidey wasn't the classic good vs. evil clash.

Neither is Xavier and Magneto. But, unlike Venom, Magneto's feud is based on something tangible. There's real basis for it. It makes sense.

Spidey and Venom's doesn't. That's why it's lame. It's extremely poor literature. That's why none of the Venom stories are considered classics, or hallmark moments in Spidey's life. It's why Venom has never amounted to anything other than a glorified stalker.

They don't go anywhere with a paper thin character with foundations weaker than Aunt May's heart.

The movie feud stemmed from a one-dimensional professional shortcut angle. That is crap. The 616 version was elaborate.

The movie feud stemmed from something. The comic feud stemmed from nothing. Some doofus who chooses to blame a stranger on his loserness.

Compelling

Joker-Bats, Lex-Supes, Hulk-Leader are all feuds that started out as the hero getting in the way of the villian's plot and then it grew to be personal. With Venom and Spidey, it was only personal right from the start.

LOL! That's just it, it wasn't personal. Spidey never knew him. And he never knew Spidey. It wasn't personal. Brock just decided to make it personal for ludicrous reasons.

It's why their feud is so unbelievable and ridiculous. It's based on BS.

He is such a tragic character because he doesn't really want to be what he becomes.

What Venom stories have you been reading? He loves the symbiote. He loves what it does to him. It took cancer to make him want to get rid of it.

That's not embarrassing, that's deep and sympathetic.

No, it's embarrassing. No pity should be felt for a twit who can't take responsibility for his own actions, and blame his own loserness on someone else. Especially someone he's never even met. Someone who just caught a serial killer. But, in Mr Lethal Protector's eyes, he should die for that.

LOL!

The Killing Joke and Mind Bomb delve into each character's psyche.

Yes, but Joker's is a million times deeper than Kasady's ever was. Kasady is just the cliche orphan kid turned bad.

Each one is a nihilistic portrait of men who can only find pleasure in the suffering of others.

Only? No, Joker has pleasures other than causing suffering. Just look at the insane schemes he cooks up.

That's what makes them so much alike despite their different methods. They are not the same but the crux of the characters is very similar.

No, the only thing they share in common is their witty natures. By nature, Joker has actual goals. He enjoys murder, but it's usually as a means to achieve his schemes.

Carnage just enjoys the kill. That's it. No higher aspirations. Just look at Maximum Carnage. 14 issues of him going around New York randomly killing.

So shallow.

 

[Venom 1988]

very much so, i was like "venom lives, carnage for part4"

ugh

 

[AIRWOLF]

Yes, but Joker's is a million times deeper than Kasady's ever was. Kasady is just the cliche orphan kid turned bad.



Only? No, Joker has pleasures other than causing suffering. Just look at the insane schemes he cooks up.



No, the only thing they share in common is their witty natures. By nature, Joker has actual goals. He enjoys murder, but it's usually as a means to achieve his schemes.

Carnage just enjoys the kill. That's it. No higher aspirations. Just look at Maximum Carnage. 14 issues of him going around New York randomly killing.

So shallow.

- I must add to that part; he wasn't just some orphan who happen to turn bad. There were family conflicts and his bad treatment in orphanage. Even thought it's cliche, it is the only thing that gives meaning and reason to existence of Carnage. Even though Joker is a brilliant schemer , we hardly know his background; I did read Killing Joke, though, if that's his actual background than I understand.

- Yeah, that's the only thing they share. Just watch Batman Beyond: Return of Joker; simply amazing.

- Max Carnage, though fun read, was shallow as hell. I mean I enjoyed reading it cause Spidey was teaming with Venom, its funny to me, but I got so fed up of Carnage going around just killing and killing.

 

[The Joker]

- I must add to that part; he wasn't just some orphan who happen to turn bad. There were family conflicts and his bad treatment in orphanage. Even thought it's cliche, it is the only thing that gives meaning and reason to existence of Carnage.

Yeah, that's what I mean. It's a known fact that serial killers are often the product of some kind of childhood abuse or hardship.

With Carnage, they didn't do anything with him to make his background unique. To make his story stand out somewhat from most serial killers. It was just "Oh, he was an orphan who had a rough time".

Very unimaginative.

Even though Joker is a brilliant schemer , we hardly know his background; I did read Killing Joke, though, if that's his actual background than I understand.

Read my signature. That's how Joker remembers his past. There are several possible origins for him, but The Killing Joke is considered by most fans to be the canon one, as it also ties in with the Red Hood story, which debuted way back in the 50's.

- Max Carnage, though fun read, was shallow as hell. I mean I enjoyed reading it cause Spidey was teaming with Venom, its funny to me, but I got so fed up of Carnage going around just killing and killing.

It's because Carnage was merely an excuse to keep Venom around. The Spidey/Venom feud got stale because it just wasn't going anywhere. Stalk and fight, stalk and fight. The character ran out of steam back in the 80's.

So, they conjured up Carnage, someone new for Venom to fight.

 

[Uber Venom]

Eh, to be honest I don't like Venom's motivation in the movies or the comics.

I used to love the character, but as I got older I realized he's pretty mediocre.

As for Carnage....no. God no.