Villain for the Dark Knight Beyond?

[HighFivingMF]

cool. thanks for stopping by.

Heh.

 

[Asteroid-Man]

Black Mask - Mob element
Joker - A blast from the past
Freeze - Primary villain

Joker is more or less in the shadows. It's not until the end of the second act that we find out someone is pulling the strings, and mid-second act we find out it's Joker. In this way we get an almost complete third act, knowing full well who is running the show.

Joker would get away with it, leaving Batman feeling defeated, even though he's foiled the Joker's plot.

 

[MarvelKnight]

It would be nice to see Freeze in a film, done the right way.

 

[shauner111]

Hopefully we'll get Freeze in the reboot, but even a Nolanized Freeze would have been insane.

Asteroid-Man, pretty good combo! They could have pulled off an entire trilogy with Black Mask/Penguin as the freak mobsters, Riddler as a supporting villain in one and Joker pulling the strings throughout the trilogy. And Freeze as the primary villain for 1 of the films.

 

[Asteroid-Man]

Hopefully we'll get Freeze in the reboot, but even a Nolanized Freeze would have been insane.

Asteroid-Man, pretty good combo! They could have pulled off an entire trilogy with Black Mask/Penguin as the freak mobsters, Riddler as a supporting villain in one and Joker pulling the strings throughout the trilogy. And Freeze as the primary villain for 1 of the films.

That's pretty much exactly what I would want. I'd also want it to initially take place 10 years or so into the future, where Blake actually took time off to train. That way, Batman's return could ignite the flame within a whole new generation of Gothamites. If he fought crime right away, the sacrifice Batman made would have lost it's impact. So he should leave for 10 years, and during that time, a new advanced version of the mob is rising up (led by Black Mask). This could also explain Freeze's tech.

At the end of part 1, maybe don't have Bats and Joker go head to head, but have him find out he's in charge, and the plots he is foiling are the Joker's. Just don't show him.

Then have part 2 take places a few years later, and the Joker has returned. Again, his plots are foiled, maybe have Gordon be killed, and then Joker "gets away" again. Because of this, Bruce Wayne returns.

Part 3 takes place shortly after part 2 and is like our traditional Beyond story. Bruce is helping the new Bats from the cave.


Villains:
Black Mask (Part 1, let out of prison in Part 3 before being killed by Freeze for revenge on Nora)
Riddler (Part 2, out of Arkham in Part 3 before being killed by Joker to prevent him from "stealing the show")
Freeze (Part 1, in emergency cryo sleep until he is woken up in part 3 by the Joker. He saves Batman at some point to settle a debt when Batman saved Freeze from Black Mask in part 1. He dies for being out of cryo-sleep for too long)

 

[the last son]

It would have been cool to see Hush. Bale could have had his face stictched up to look like bruce wayne. He likes crazy characters. To see him playing Batman and Hush at the same time, would have been brilliant and he would have won an oscar for show

 

[66 Face]

I'll go with The Penguin and a pitted Ras w/ Talia lurking in the back ground to see just who Bruce Wayne left at the mantle. In the end we see Robin lose to the Penguin, Ras shoots him for being undeserving so Bruce Wayne comes back to help. Then we see something closer to the first comic story of Ras.

That also sets up the next movie of The Penguin going to jail and putting a bounty on Batmans head. Deadshots up and hunting Batman while Batman and Robin are fighting the Riddler. The Joker makes a cameo in a Silence of the Lambs kind of way and Catwoman is to busy to help because of her own agenda. IMO its important to establish a Gothem community of villains.

If Bales out so be it but bring back Bruce Wayne. Also with all due respect to Heath Ledger, the Joker HAS to come back. To be honest I would have a different actor play him every time and just leave it up to his level of insanity. He has a new story, a new vibe and a new manner every time you see him. There are no consistencies.

 

[deadshot daquir]

i'd like to see croc or clayface. CGI has been used in TDK for two-face's face, but it could be expanded.

also, imagine batman using more of the grappling hook with spiderman effect

 

[Picard Sisko]

I want Mr. Freeze done RIGHT. Maybe have Patrick Stewart or Sir Ben Kingsley play the villain.

 

[Octoberist]

Mr. Freeze.

 

[shauner111]

I want Mr. Freeze done RIGHT. Maybe have Patrick Stewart or Sir Ben Kingsley play the villain.

Both are too old, Freeze shouldn't be in his 70's lol. Keep Kingsley for Mandarin and Stewart as Professor X.

Freeze should be between 45 and 60.

He's definately the most anticipated villain for me. Whether in the reboot or a hypothetical sequel to Nolans trilogy. The next time that character shows up, i hope it wipes away the memory of Batman & Robin. He can be such an interesting, badass. It'll be controversial but well worth it.

As for the villains. If Nolans story were to continue i still don't think we would get any version of Clayface, Mad Hatter, Ventriloquist, Man-Bat or Calendar Man in that world. I think never before seen rogues/mobsters like Hush, Black Mask, Alberto Falcone, Tony Zucco, Harley Quinn, Hugo Strange & Killer Croc (a more realistic one) would have a huge chance of appearing. Popular rogues like Riddler/Penguin/Mr. Freeze/Poison Ivy could go either way.

 

[thorstone]

If villains are to work together-- they should be working together from the beginning. For example, Riddler could be a terrorist bomber working with Penguin to help him get elected and expand his power.

Read the last few pages or so of the JGL thread (in the TDKR forum) I completely disagree with you...there's a long argument about that lol. It's more open to just "he's Batman". He can be whatever he chooses to be.

I won't continue the argument here, but for the sake of this thread..whether it's Batman Beyond or whatever...Freeze can be done Nolan style but stretched a little bit. It shouldn't be about what the fans want. It was never that way with Nolans universe anyway. Heath's Joker and Hathaway's Catwoman was never what we wanted going into it. A lot of people loved it, some not so much. You can't please everybody, you just have to do your own interpretation sometimes.

But ya, Bane is definately dead.

I agree with you that the identity of the villain has more to do with serving the theme and metaphor of the story. I think after the terrorist act of Bane; a likely theme to rise is that of the (political) reaction, which is why I suggest Penguin as the background villain (to carry over into future sequels).

 

[BattleCat]

Mr. Freeze

 

[shauner111]

I agree with you that the identity of the villain has more to do with serving the theme and metaphor of the story. I think after the terrorist act of Bane; a likely theme to rise is that of the (political) reaction, which is why I suggest Penguin as the background villain (to carry over into future sequels).

I was thinking something along those lines, Penguin in a political position for a sequel. But not right away because i think Riddler would be a logical choice coming after Bane. Scaling it down to a detective story. This will probably happen first in the reboot but it works great with Blake too.

In MY first story (bear with me: this is a thread about villains so ill bold it when it's relevant to that subject) Blake is actually Nightwing and Fox creates the Batman Beyond suit at the end for him (as his last creation before he retires). Then we get to 2 more movies in the trilogy with him as the Batman. As each movie/story progresses, it gets more like Arkham City in tone.

It begins 1 year after the events of Rises. The city has begun to rebuild, the government is putting money into it and trying to get as many prisoners off the streets from Banes breakout, but there's the odd one that needs to be captured. Enter Blake. It starts out where he already has a job at Wayne Manor teaching/counseling or whatever for the orphaned children. He lives in a gritty apartment elsewhere but helping kids at the Manor gives him access to the cave where he stores everything. Fox tells him he has a job waiting for him anytime he wants if he ever wants to leave WM. For now he declines and stays where he is because it's easy access and is helping these kids out more than ever. Nightwing reps the bat signal and Gordon is aware of who he is. He uses bats at one point like Batman used them in Begins in Arkham, and he wears the classic blue suit but with the bat symbol on the chest. Fox has a smaller role in this one and this one only. Gordons daughter gets a couple of mentions, she'll be coming to Gotham in the sequel. It deals with Gordons lying about Dents death and whether he'll get punished or not. More cops on the scene who have transferred from various cities. Sarah Essen, Harvey Bullock are among them. Robin Blake already has the suit made and we dont see his first appearance because he's been out there a few times. It's to avoid repetition from scenes out of TDK Trilogy. Just like there will be a gap between my first and second story because before he claims the title of Batman (Beyond) he leaves for X amount of years to go train. Most likely with Bruce but i wouldnt have it shown/written in detail. It would skip all of that. A long process for electing the new Mayor would also go down. They would have to be very careful and anal with decisions like these from now on. Penguin will have to be really swift to get to power.

NOW AS FOR VILLAINS I was thinking Black Mask with Riddler sort of in the middle of him and Nightwing. Riddler knows about Sionis and his business and that something is brewing but he doesnt know every single detail. He toys with both men. Helping Nightwing with clues on catching Black mask but not giving too much away for the fun of it. Then he goes and frames Sionis just to toy with Blake. Stuff like that. Nothing but mysteries and puzzles and detective work.

Roman Sionis knew Bruce Wayne growing up, now that Bruce is "dead" he figures he can rule the business side of things in Gotham. His day-time job is one big front and at night he operates as his crimelord self. Wearing a unique black mask & white suit. Nygma is absolutely obsessed with the legend of Batman. His backstory is vague at best, the detailed origin would be saved for Penguin.

Killer Croc would have a little role like Zsasz in Begins or Scarecrow in TDK/R. A henchmen with a skin condition, one of Black Masks men. Nightwing has to go through him in one scene in order to get into Sionis' compound. Of course Roman isn't there because Nygma tipped him off. Leaving a puzzle or something for Blake inside this place. Little appearances like this would happen quite a few times in this trilogy with the minor villains. Even a name drop or a quick flash of their face in an Arkham cell. Mad Hatter, Ventriloquist, Clayface, Poison Ivy are examples of that approach. I can write in a badass Deadshot chase/fight scene in one story where he's a hired assassin/hitman from out of town. A one-shot deal to take down the Bat in a act of desperation by the newest elected Mayor: Oswald Cobblepot.

So that's just a summary of my first story. Tons of changes will be made im sure, but that's who i would have in the first one regarding the villains. Trying to make it the 'complete Batman mythos' by featuring everybody but not over-crowding. Hence the cameos. Freeze is definately saved for the third with the return of the Joker, with Harley. There's a connection and rivalry between Penguin & Black Mask that's revealed later. As well as Joker and Freeze. But Joker having connections to all of them would be really cool. As the ultimate mastermind who returns at the end of the final chapter and perhaps kills the new Batman...of course this would mean that the older Bruce would be in the last one in a role that recalls Beyond. That way he finds Blakes body like in "A Death In The Family". A flip on the end of TDK, where we saw a young Batman/Joker battle it out but it's not the final sequence, that involves the tragedy of Two-Face with Batman. This time they finish the tragic plot with Freeze and end the story with a final fight with the older Batman/Joker.

 

[Baramos]

I don't think they'll go this route, but anyway, the only one of those that hasn't been done already in a film and which I think would work in the Nolanverse would have to be Black Mask. Penguin and Riddler might work but nothing really sets them apart for me as villains, Penguin is a mobster, Riddler is kind of like the Joker was in the Dark Knight...he's just more into the clues/riddles part than the random mayhem.

 

[shauner111]

If you wanna say that Riddler was done pretty much with the Joker. And that Penguin is just another mobster, then so is Black Mask. But I dont believe that. You may be right about Riddler but that's why i wouldn't have him as the main baddie, nor would be it be with Bruce Waynes Batman. I would do little things to set him apart from Heaths Joker. I wouldnt have him as young as Heath was either.

Black Mask could be a more theatrical version of the traditional mob bosses (Falcone, Maroni) i get that...but i think Penguin is that and so much more. To me, Penguin and Freeze were two villains that Nolan could have used and made unique. They are very different from the average mobster, Joker, Catwoman, Bane/Ras/Talia and the whole threat of the League of Shadows, Scarecrow OR Two-Face.

 

[scatterax]

I young Patrick Stewart would have been perfect for freeze now that i think about it.

 

[shauner111]

a young Stewart definately. Now? Depends on when we're seeing him next. Maybe by the 3rd movie in the reboot? And that's a maybe. Right now you can say Ralph Fiennes, Bryan Cranston, Daniel Day Lewis, Daniel Craig, etc but who would suit it in 10-12 years from now?? He needs to be (in my opinion) in his early 40s to early 60s max. And in some decent shape at least.

A lot of us try to fan-cast Freeze and we go after 40 year olds or 50 year olds but maybe there's a great actor who's in his 30's right now that could play him when we land in the 2020's.

 

[Baramos]

I differentiate Black Mask from all the other mob bosses for the reason of being more of a visceral threat to whatever characters would go up against him--all the torture and such.

 

[kewlmatto]

Part of me thinks the series needs to be left alone now.

But another part of me really wants a Nightwing movie.

I'd definitely want that 'Leo Dicaprio' Riddler WB was trying to push. Considering Blake has already been more of a detective that would be great. I wouldn't want Riddler to be anything like the Joker though - I hate it when he is portrayed as a Joker clone. He needs to be more like Robin Williams in Insomnia in characterisation - obsessed with Batman. I imagine an almost Prestige like rivalry between Riddler and Batman. I think it makes sense for Riddler to be a rogue FBI agent or similar.

And Black Mask as the more 'traditional' threat.

 

[tekken]

...

I believe the ending was very explicit. Gordon finds a new Bat signal, and the final image of the movie is the "Dark Knight" rising.

Bruce Wayne says to Robin that he created Batman so that anyone could be Batman. There is no question to me that Robin will now take over as the Batman. Al Ghul Batman is immortal.

...

About the bat-signal - unlike past interpretations, Nolan used the bat-signal as a way to scare off criminals, not so much to call on Batman. I remember there being a line in the beginning of TDK where Gordon says something about Batman not really responding to the signal, but putting it up to let criminals know he's out there. I could totally see them still using the signal even after his "death" for the superstitious, cowardly lot.

Also, when Bruce said anyone could be Batman, I'm sure he meant that anyone could stand up to injustice in their own way just as he did. It's in the same vein as when he told Gordon that anyone could be hero, even something as little as putting a coat over a child to let him know the world hadn't ended.

"Batman" is Bruce Wayne's creation, derived from his own fear of bats. I thought it was clear that Bruce intended for Batman to be everlasting as a symbol, and not as a legacy. He ultimately wanted to inspire people to act, to shake them out of apathy, so he wouldn't have to be Batman anymore (not so much that someone else would be Batman in place of him). Why else would he put his trust in Harvey Dent, and not the copycats dressed as Batman?

I personally don't know what John Blake would become, but I really don't think it's Batman - it's certainly not what Bruce would have wanted. It would undermine his sacrifice that let him "die a hero," and besides...I have a feeling Blake would find an identity that links to his past, just as Bruce did with his fear of bats. I can totally see Blake finding inspiration from his real name "Robin" from the bird and Robin Hood. I know many people say that's stupid because that's his real name...but everyone knows him as John Blake, and he told Batman he wasn't afraid to show himself upon hearing the suggestion to wear a mask. Using his original name while wearing a mask would reconcile both notions. I personally thought it was genius, but I can see where that's completely ******ed too. Another thing is though, John Blake is sort of a nobody, whereas everyone knows who Bruce Wayne is.

In the end, TDKR's ending was a very good end to the series. To me, he will always be Robin, and for others he will be the next Batman or Nightwing. He's whatever SHH needs him to be. Call it in.

BUT if he's to be The Dark Knight Beyond, I'd say Black Mask and Mr. Freeze.

 

[shauner111]

About the bat-signal - unlike past interpretations, Nolan used the bat-signal as a way to scare off criminals, not so much to call on Batman. I remember there being a line in the beginning of TDK where Gordon says something about Batman not really responding to the signal, but putting it up to let criminals know he's out there. I could totally see them still using the signal even after his "death" for the superstitious, cowardly lot.

Also, when Bruce said anyone could be Batman, I'm sure he meant that anyone could stand up to injustice in their own way just as he did. It's in the same vein as when he told Gordon that anyone could be hero, even something as little as putting a coat over a child to let him know the world hadn't ended.

"Batman" is Bruce Wayne's creation, derived from his own fear of bats. I thought it was clear that Bruce intended for Batman to be everlasting as a symbol, and not as a legacy. He ultimately wanted to inspire people to act, to shake them out of apathy, so he wouldn't have to be Batman anymore (not so much that someone else would be Batman in place of him). Why else would he put his trust in Harvey Dent, and not the copycats dressed as Batman?

I personally don't know what John Blake would become, but I really don't think it's Batman - it's certainly not what Bruce would have wanted. It would undermine his sacrifice that let him "die a hero," and besides...I have a feeling Blake would find an identity that links to his past, just as Bruce did with his fear of bats. I can totally see Blake finding inspiration from his real name "Robin" from the bird and Robin Hood. I know many people say that's stupid because that's his real name...but everyone knows him as John Blake, and he told Batman he wasn't afraid to show himself upon hearing the suggestion to wear a mask. Using his original name while wearing a mask would reconcile both notions. I personally thought it was genius, but I can see where that's completely ******ed too. Another thing is though, John Blake is sort of a nobody, whereas everyone knows who Bruce Wayne is.

In the end, TDKR's ending was a very good end to the series. To me, he will always be Robin, and for others he will be the next Batman or Nightwing. He's whatever SHH needs him to be. Call it in.

BUT if he's to be The Dark Knight Beyond, I'd say Black Mask and Mr. Freeze.

 

[thorstone]

I don't get why people think that Robin can't take over as Batman (and we have a reboot within an existing universe). It's what happens in the comics. This is what is supposed to happen.

 

[shauner111]

It's not the comics.

 

[tekken]

Did my explanation not get through to you? I thought it made sense...

I didn't mean to say he can't be Batman, but that it just wouldn't the logical thing to happen considering everything else that happened in the trilogy. He most definitely could, and yeah him rising on the platform could have foreshadowed that...but to me "The Dark Knight Rises" happened when Bruce climbed out of the pit, not when Blake was on the rising platform. To me, Blake rising just meant the end of Bruce's journey.

One of the biggest things though, is that Blake just doesn't have the proper training to be Batman. He'd have to do things his own way as more of a detective than an all-out brawler. I'd much rather have him be "Robin" (Red Robin? Nightwing? anyone else?) the detective who was inspired by the acts of Batman rather than his unqualified replacement.

I could be totally wrong and biased because I'm a big Robin fan.