WarriorDreamer
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Doc Ock.
Side note: I know he's already been done, and I wouldn't want anyone to try to knock Alfred Molina off the podium, but I think Marvel has to do Doctor Octopus for the current Spider-Man movies. I realize people want to see different villains, but we'll get them. I have a feeling Holland's Spidey is going to be around for a loooong time and Feige has even indicated that the MCU's focus will be on him after Phase 3.
Besides, it looks like they're going to go the route of the Sinister 6 and you can NOT do that without Doctor Octopus.
Side note: I know he's already been done, and I wouldn't want anyone to try to knock Alfred Molina off the podium, but I think Marvel has to do Doctor Octopus for the current Spider-Man movies. I realize people want to see different villains, but we'll get them. I have a feeling Holland's Spidey is going to be around for a loooong time and Feige has even indicated that the MCU's focus will be on him after Phase 3.
Besides, it looks like they're going to go the route of the Sinister 6 and you can NOT do that without Doctor Octopus.
I did like how Peter never beat The Vulture in combat. Peter was thrown in the river and had a building fall on top of him. Peter also was beaten down in the finale - it was only that Vulture's suit was destroyed by the technology as he was flying away.
Spoilers, spoilers.I did like howPeter never beat The Vulture in combat. Peter was thrown in the river and had a building fall on top of him. Peter also was beaten down in the finale - it was only that Vulture's suit was destroyed by the technology as he was flying away.
I don't know if I would call that darkness. If I was in his shoes, I'd probably feel the same way about a project I worked hard to plan and build for a long time.Correct. Especially the bold part. When Spidey swung in at the demonstration and tried to unplug the reactor, Otto viciously smashed him into the wall hard enough to shatter the bricks. That there was the seeds of Doc Ock.
Correct. Especially the bold part. When Spidey swung in at the demonstration and tried to unplug the reactor, Otto viciously smashed him into the wall hard enough to shatter the bricks. That there was the seeds of Doc Ock.
KAW is a previously banned user; http://forums.superherohype.com/member.php?u=83813
Stupid opinions often come from PBUs.
My problem is that even though his reaction is extreme, it's still not until the AI gets to him until he hoes into Ock mode.
The fact that there is debate at all as to how much the AI influences him show's me that they didn't depict Ock correctly.
And Norman doesn't go into Goblin mode until the serum screws his brain and gives him a dual personality. Connors doesn't go into vicious Lizard mode until the reptilian DNA screws his mind etc. Most of these villains don't go nasty until their own bad science, or some sort of accident screws their brains and turns them into full on bad guys willing to go to extremes they never would have done before the accident.
Yes the A.I. is an external influence on Otto, like a devil on his shoulder, but to me it was simply preying on something that was already inside him. In this case his ruthless zeal to finish his life's work. That was clearly depicted at the demonstration scene when we saw what he did to Spidey. Compounded worse by the fact it's the only thing he has left that he cares about after his wife is killed.
Furthermore A.I. doesn't force a man to smile, laugh, and spout witty villainous one liners. Are we also expected to believe the A.I. coerced him to smoke cigars, and drink Harry's glass of booze like a slick cool bad ass, too, lol? No, why would it? That was all Otto embracing the villain side.
Obviously it's not a totally faithful adaption of the character. That's not the debate here, yet you keep consistently bringing it up. It's who came off as a better villain. And for my money that is unquestionably Doc Ock. Great as Toomes was, and he was great, Molina is still the king. Clearly the poll results here also reflect that.
If we wanted to go with who was more faithfully adapted, then Toomes would win. But then Sandman was more faithfully adapted, too, and nobody would hail him as one of the greats. In fact there's a lot of popular CBM characters who are unfaithfully adapted. Starlord in GOTG is a recent one that springs to mind. At the end of the day quality wins out. And Ock was quality. That's why he and SM-2 hold their own even 13 years later.
Even with the character change, they still successfully managed to make Otto a mirror image of Peter and his struggle in the movie. That is one of the great things about Ock. He's like the Peter Parker gone bad. In SM-2 Peter was irresponsible by giving up being Spidey to live his dream of a normal life. Otto was irresponsible by doing evil things to make his dream happen. In the end they both come full circle and accept responsibility for their actions. That's why Peter was able to repeat May's little speech to Otto, because it applied to him, too. That was one of the things I loved about SM-2's Ock. They were able to link them on a conceptual level, rather than have Otto personally connected in some significant way into Peter's personal life. He wasn't his best friend's father, or his best friend, or the killer of his uncle, or the guy he worked with at the Bugle, or his father's work colleague, or the father of the girl he's taking to prom etc. He was just a great scientist whom Peter admired.
The rest of your post is just you going on further about faithfulness of adaption. That's not the point of this thread. So I'm ignoring it.
I'm going to say equal. They both did a great job. There have been some great actors to play Spider-man villains, even in the ones that don't work out so well like Electro. Fox is a great actor, it's was just a poorly conceived rendition of the character. But Rhys Ifans, Thomas Hayden Church, even Topher Grace is a good actor he was just miscast. But clearly Keaton, Molina and Dafoe clearly separated themselves from the pack.
I like that both these guys were smart in different ways. Ock was clearly top notch in terms of scientific knowledge. He knew how to make the things he wanted and no one could say he wasn't smart. But Vulture was smart in how he organized things. He was able to be a criminal for years on years without being found out. Ock just smashed through banks and openly attacked his targets. But he could make things that Vulture had to turn to others for.Ock wins, superior intellect and his tentacles are super strong.
Don't get me wrong, Vulture is a great villain- but Doc Ock seemed to be a more challenging and engaging foe for Spider-Man that may be a bit more compelling. But I DO think Vulture is a close second.