Infinity War War Machine/Rhodey... Like or Don't Like?

[Confusion]

Well, this is a vague dialog. Stark didn't specified his question at first. So, maybe Steve didn't know it was Bucky, but knew it was HYDRA and that parents were killed, not died in a car accident.
In that case he technically didn't lie.

I thought the same thing.
Cap knew Tony's parents were murdered by Hydra, but wasn't 100% sure it was Bucky who did it.
And Tony didn't exactly say, "Did you know that Bucky murdered my parents?"
He was asking if Cap knew his parents were murdered in general.

But after watching Civil War more times than I can keep track of, I'm not sure anymore.
We know from WS that Cap knows Hydra had Tony's parents killed.
At the end of that movie, BW gives Cap Buckys file & says "You may not want to pull at that thread"(I think that was the exact wording)

So it has never been stated out loud that yes, Bucky murdered Starks parents.
But, I'm sure that information was in his file, or at the very least, with the 2 years Cap & Falcon were looking for Bucky, I'm sure they figured it out. Also, how would Zemo of known? All he had to work with was the leaked hydra/shield files BW dumped.

So yeah, Cap lied when he said he didn't know it was him. That is not a very "Cap" thing to do. I'm team Cap 100% to a fault, but that was pretty ****** of him.

 

[Capsfan]

I have to agree with this. While it's not 100% sure canon and wasn't necessary in that BW's file, but I find it highly unlikely that Cap didn't know about Bucky killing Starks after 2 years of searching for him, when Zemo had only one year.

In the end, we can only guess. It's open to different interpretations.

 

[Panacea]

[YT]UJ0ZL9s7gQw[/YT]

Just so people can see exactly what's being discussed.

For myself... I think describing it as "disgust" is pretty extreme. I think he's just showing a sanguine grappling with the fact that while the team has a proper place the truth is there are consequences to their actions. I think it's telling that the footage shows the Hulk, a thorn in the side of the military (which is dear to Rhodey's heart as an officer) and a super powered being known for large scale destruction.

To me it just looks like an expression of deep concern, and a realisation of where this is going and why. He's looking at them to exchange reactions, not to give them a dirty or accusing look or something. That's how I see it anyway.

 

[KevTravels]

Thanks for posting the scene It's a lot easier to explain something after looking at it than from memory.

I still think it came off as judgemental & unnecessary.
And it's just that one second of judgy McJudge face that I am talking about since this is a Like him or hate him thread about War Machine.
That that was the moment I realized that I'm not liking him anymore.

I always knew he would be 100% for The Accords. He's a life time Military man that of course would be for the Government. I wasn't expecting any less from him on that aspect.

I concur. It made sense Rhodes was pro-Accords. Though I'd like to see if everything is done as a pro-military stance for him. I guess that makes CA doubt of the armed forces/Accords as being too critical for him to take. Hope they continue this in Infinity War.

 

[jaqua99]

I thought the same thing.
Cap knew Tony's parents were murdered by Hydra, but wasn't 100% sure it was Bucky who did it.
And Tony didn't exactly say, "Did you know that Bucky murdered my parents?"
He was asking if Cap knew his parents were murdered in general.

But after watching Civil War more times than I can keep track of, I'm not sure anymore.
We know from WS that Cap knows Hydra had Tony's parents killed.
At the end of that movie, BW gives Cap Buckys file & says "You may not want to pull at that thread"(I think that was the exact wording)

So it has never been stated out loud that yes, Bucky murdered Starks parents.
But, I'm sure that information was in his file, or at the very least, with the 2 years Cap & Falcon were looking for Bucky, I'm sure they figured it out. Also, how would Zemo of known? All he had to work with was the leaked hydra/shield files BW dumped.

So yeah, Cap lied when he said he didn't know it was him. That is not a very "Cap" thing to do. I'm team Cap 100% to a fault, but that was pretty ****** of him.

Nah.

Their dialogue earlier in the movie showed Steve WILL lie as damage control.

"If I see a situation going south, I can't ignore it. Sometimes I wish I could"

"No you don't"

"No I don't. Sometimes-"

This scene set the tone, Tony called out Steve for lying, playfully. It was also CLEAR forshadowing.

Then the same thing happened when he saw his parents die.

"I can't ignore it, sometimes I wish I could"/"I didn't know it was him"

"No you don't"/ "don't ******** me Rogers Did you know"

"No I don't"/"yes"

The writing is on the wall, you guys are looking too hard. That interection set the standard.

Tony called Steve out for lying, which is what fueled his anger from a narrative standpoint. Steve DID lie to Tony, like it or not.

 

[Confusion]

Nah.

Their dialogue earlier in the movie showed Steve WILL lie as damage control.

"If I see a situation going south, I can't ignore it. Sometimes I wish I could"

"No you don't"

"No I don't. Sometimes-"

This scene set the tone, Tony called out Steve for lying, playfully. It was also CLEAR forshadowing.

Then the same thing happened when he saw his parents die.

"I can't ignore it, sometimes I wish I could"/"I didn't know it was him"

"No you don't"/ "don't ******** me Rogers Did you know"

"No I don't"/"yes"

The writing is on the wall, you guys are looking too hard. That interection set the standard.

Tony called Steve out for lying, which is what fueled his anger from a narrative standpoint. Steve DID lie to Tony, like it or not.

Umm, Yeah. I know. I said he lied.
1st few viewings, I was torn because I really wanted not think Cap would do that. But once you factor in everything yeah, he flat out lied to Tony about his parents & Bucky.

I knew someone would bring up that scene earlier with Tony lol.
You can take that as foreshadowing, sure. But in my opinion, it's kind of silly to do so. Those two scenes are apples & oranges.
It was on the lighthearted side, & Tony didn't even ask him a question. Cap was adding onto his statement.
I can't explain it very well typing it out. I'm not the greatest at that. But if Russos were truly TRULY using that specific moment as a foreshadow to the actual lie, then I'd be shocked. SHOCKED I tell you. because that is weak.
If that is the ONLY thing you go on that instantly says Cap lied, well, to each their own.
lol at the comment of "you're looking to hard" It's a freakin discussion board. to discuss different points in the movie. Or nah?

 

[jaqua99]

Umm, Yeah. I know. I said he lied.
1st few viewings, I was torn because I really wanted not think Cap would do that. But once you factor in everything yeah, he flat out lied to Tony about his parents & Bucky.

I knew someone would bring up that scene earlier with Tony lol.
You can take that as foreshadowing, sure. But in my opinion, it's kind of silly to do so. Those two scenes are apples & oranges.
It was on the lighthearted side, & Tony didn't even ask him a question. Cap was adding onto his statement.
I can't explain it very well typing it out. I'm not the greatest at that. But if Russos were truly TRULY using that specific moment as a foreshadow to the actual lie, then I'd be shocked. SHOCKED I tell you. because that is weak.
If that is the ONLY thing you go on that instantly says Cap lied, well, to each their own.
lol at the comment of "you're looking to hard" It's a freakin discussion board. to discuss different points in the movie. Or nah?

Haha oh come on, it was nothing personal. I overanalyze A LOT with these movies and there ain't nothing wrong with that at all! I just meant it seems like it's easier to determine Steve was lying than not lying, and that diving into context isn't necessary in this case, cause the answer is there

I missread your post in that you had a change of heart. No love lost.

While it was a ****** thing to do, it kind of makes sense with Steve's character development, especially from a psychodynamic standpoint! It's part of his character, he is now a rightous man, and doesn't want to hurt people. So, he had the best intentions, but it was ******, he realized it after. It shows he still has room to grow. It adds depth, and a psychological conflict to a character who is typically portrayed as doing everything right. I love it.

And you may be shocked

There is consistency in both those dialogues. My point is that the first scene shows Steve will lie for damage control. And he does. And it's good. It adds depth, and caring to the character. It isn't the only thing I go by, I reach that conclusion by studying psychoanalysis, human behavior, and applying it to my profession.. gives the perspective to assess portrayed characters.

 

[Confusion]

Haha oh come on, it was nothing personal. I overanalyze A LOT with these movies and there ain't nothing wrong with that at all! I just meant it seems like it's easier to determine Steve was lying than not lying, and that diving into context isn't necessary in this case, cause the answer is there

I missread your post in that you had a change of heart. No love lost.

While it was a ****** thing to do, it kind of makes sense with Steve's character development, especially from a psychodynamic standpoint! It's part of his character, he is now a rightous man, and doesn't want to hurt people. So, he had the best intentions, but it was ******, he realized it after. It shows he still has room to grow. It adds depth, and a psychological conflict to a character who is typically portrayed as doing everything right. I love it.

My bad. Sorry. In trying to explain my point of view on things, I've been misunderstood & told I read too much into movies & to chill. I reacted badly. Again, sorry!

I agree with what you just explained & you do it very well! I'm jealous

He even admits to that in the letter to Tony

I know I hurt you Tony. I guess I thought – by not telling you about your parents I was sparing you, but… I can see now I was really sparing myself. I’m sorry. Hopefully one day you can understand.

But what was he hopeful that Tony would understand one day? Why he wanted to spare him the pain of knowing? Or how he came to realize he was only sparing himself? I wish they didn't include that last line. It seems a bit off.

There is consistency in both those dialogues. My point is that the first scene shows Steve will lie for damage control. And he does. And it's good. It adds depth, and caring to the character. It isn't the only thing I go by, I reach that conclusion by studying psychoanalysis, human behavior, and applying it to my profession.. gives the perspective to assess portrayed characters.

Yes, I noticed that in TWS. He didn't straight up lie to Pierce, he withheld information. which can be viewed as the same thing but he does it for the right reasons.
Him lying to Tony, he thought he didn't do it maliciously, he did it because he thought it would save him from the pain. Which, was obviously a huge error on his part.

 

[jaqua99]

My bad. Sorry. In trying to explain my point of view on things, I've been misunderstood & told I read too much into movies & to chill. I reacted badly. Again, sorry!

I agree with what you just explained & you do it very well! I'm jealous

He even admits to that in the letter to Tony
But what was he hopeful that Tony would understand one day? Why he wanted to spare him the pain of knowing? Or how he came to realize he was only sparing himself? I wish they didn't include that last line. It seems a bit off.



Yes, I noticed that in TWS. He didn't straight up lie to Pierce, he withheld information. which can be viewed as the same thing but he does it for the right reasons.
Him lying to Tony, he thought he didn't do it maliciously, he did it because he thought it would save him from the pain. Which, was obviously a huge error on his part.

No worries. I'm probably older than you and I've had to learn how to speak and assess behavior for school/work, so I'm lucky.

But you are pretty spot on, as you answered your own question. It's the nature of the people pleaser.

"I do my best to be a good person, to keep people happy". That is sort of the outlook.

What Steve does here is actually a perfect example of behavior a complient neurotic type would make according to Karen Horney; moving "towards" people for security and distractions from deeper feelings of lonliness and isolation. Such a trend is created to avoid conflict and basic anxieties related to those feepings which results in actively maintaining positive relationships, as you see fit, as to avoid feelings of isolation, or the pain of someone you care about. Withholding potentially 'relationship damaging' information to protect the relationship fits right into this. Clingy, codependent, over the top people pleasers usually have some bit of complient neuroticism. "I'm doing this because it's best for us". When in reality, it's to avoid deeper, surpressed emotions related to the self.

There ya go, little psychology lesson there for ya Sorry, couldn't resist, love that field and love applying it.

Steve Rogers is not neurotic, at all, of course (Tony may be). But this particular behavior of lying to Tony to protect him is.
That is, he goes out of his way to avoid sharing dangerous information because:

Perhaps Steve THOUGHT letting Tony know this could
1. Jeopordize their friendship (which it does)
2. Make Himself feel guilty over simplying upsetting a friend with something so tragic and personal
3. Simply spare Tony the pain when he can keep the pain from him
4. Save himself from knowing he hurt someone (He said this much in the letter).

Steve is a very stable character, but it's awesome to see him display some traits like this, it humanizes him, a lot.

It's why I choose to believe he did lie, Steve making a decision which was ultimately to protect himself (as he says) shows that even a great character like him has flaws.

 

[Confusion]

No worries. I'm probably older than you and I've had to learn how to speak and assess behavior for school/work, so I'm lucky.

Actually, I'm probably older than you t: I have just never been very good at the whole "having conversations with other people" in the last few years


One of the many reasons I love Civil War so much is because of how they portrayed the characters. They gave them depth & a reason to really consider both sides. Yes, I'm team Cap, but I can see Tony's side more than I thought I would in regards to the Accords.
I read the Civil War story Arc a long time ago & was Team Cap then too. But Tony got pretty crazy in those so it was as easy choice.

I liked Zemo.
I figured he was going to have a generic reason for doing what he did after Cap asked if it was about Sokovia.
I was mid-eye roll when Cap said to him "So you've you lost someone"
And then my heart sank when Zemo replied "I lost everyone"

That broke my heart. I don't know why it did because if he said oh you killed my kids, or you killed my wife etc...thats what I expected! But the way he said it, the timing, I don't know, but it was not expected.

So it makes me sooooooo excited that the same people from Civil War are making IW. They are really good with most of the characters.
I have watched CW so many times & I always would find something new each time. I love that.
Since I just remembered this is a War Machine thread (Sorry! lol)
He was one of the few characters that I ended up not liking anymore after Civil War. I don't know if that was because of the writing or the acting.

 

[jaqua99]

Actually, I'm probably older than you t: I have just never been very good at the whole "having conversations with other people" in the last few years


One of the many reasons I love Civil War so much is because of how they portrayed the characters. They gave them depth & a reason to really consider both sides. Yes, I'm team Cap, but I can see Tony's side more than I thought I would in regards to the Accords.
I read the Civil War story Arc a long time ago & was Team Cap then too. But Tony got pretty crazy in those so it was as easy choice.

I liked Zemo.
I figured he was going to have a generic reason for doing what he did after Cap asked if it was about Sokovia.
I was mid-eye roll when Cap said to him "So you've you lost someone"
And then my heart sank when Zemo replied "I lost everyone"

That broke my heart. I don't know why it did because if he said oh you killed my kids, or you killed my wife etc...thats what I expected! But the way he said it, the timing, I don't know, but it was not expected.

So it makes me sooooooo excited that the same people from Civil War are making IW. They are really good with most of the characters.
I have watched CW so many times & I always would find something new each time. I love that.
Since I just remembered this is a War Machine thread (Sorry! lol)
He was one of the few characters that I ended up not liking anymore after Civil War. I don't know if that was because of the writing or the acting.

Sorry to hear that! When I was younger, I definitely was a bit socially anxious and had a hard time engaging as well. Message boards are nice outlets. I've long since outgrown that shell, but if it's any consolation, people don't care! Be yourself, and naturally, people will gravitate to you. PM if you'd like.

As far as Civil War, I agree. It was an interesting dynamic because the Villain had depth. Tony and Steve both could be looked at as an antagonist. Cap was in the right, from a narrative standpoint, but Tony's rage, and frankly, the reason for the accords were 100% valid. Vision's perspective was just so dwmn objective. He was the voice of reason.

"Oversight, that's not something that can be dismissed out of hand".

My only gripe with Zemo waa that he wasn't a mad scientist like the comics, and that he didn't get to wear that awesome suit we saw in the concept art that resembled his comic look. Maybe at some point.

 

[Capsfan]

Sorry to interfere, but I beg to disagree. Steve is as far from "people pleaser" as you are going to get. He is one of the most independent persons of the MCU. He always does what he sees fit and right for him. He doesn't care if everyone is against him.

Not to mention that he had never had any kind of close relationship with Tony to care so deeply about his feelings. I'm simply not buying it. People often forget that Howard was Steve's friend too, not only Tony's father. So to know that his best friend killed his other friend... It's pretty messed up. Add to this that he probably didn't want Tony to know and go after Bucky with all his resources. So I see it more like a selfish reason. Which is a good development for the character, showing his human and vulnerable side. No one can be selfless and perfect 24/7. Everyone has a dark side. Which is why I like this foreshadowing from AoU:
- I don't trust people without a dark side. Call me old fashioned.
- Well, maybe you just haven't seen mine yet.

 

[Confusion]

Sorry to interfere, but I beg to disagree. Steve is as far from "people pleaser" as you are going to get. He is one of the most independent persons of the MCU. He always does what he sees fit and right for him. He doesn't care if everyone is against him.

Not to mention that he had never had any kind of close relationship with Tony to care so deeply about his feelings. I'm simply not buying it. People often forget that Howard was Steve's friend too, not only Tony's father. So to know that his best friend killed his other friend... It's pretty messed up. Add to this that he probably didn't want Tony to know and go after Bucky with all his resources. So I see it more like a selfish reason. Which is a good development for the character, showing his human and vulnerable side. No one can be selfless and perfect 24/7. Everyone has a dark side. Which is why I like this foreshadowing from AoU:
- I don't trust people without a dark side. Call me old fashioned.
- Well, maybe you just haven't seen mine yet.

That's one of the things that kinda bothers me in discussions I read about the two of them.
And also every time I watch Civil War and this is said:

Cap: He's my friend
Tony: So was I

Every single time all I think is: Yeah, he hasn't been your friend since childhood! You aren't 95+ years old like he is! No comparison!

But when people go on about how Cap & Tony were great friends and Cap betrayed him etc.
95% of their shown interactions is of them either arguing or Tony making fun of Cap in a half joking/half serious way. Especially every time Cap mentions Howard. Tony is jealous of that relationship, but thats another topic lol.

I guess it goes back to Caps letter again for me. Where his apology was for Tony but for him too. If that makes any sense.

It's nice to get imput from people who don't hate Cap so all their arguments are about how Steve was an idiot & was a bad person etc etc.

 

[Capsfan]

Exactly. Tony might have considered them friends, simply because he doesn't fully understand the concept of friendship, but Steve has only three true friends: Natasha, Sam and Bucky. Heck, Thor and Steve are more friends than Tony and Steve had ever been.

Yeah, I don't understand why you would hate a character for some flaws when everyone has some. Just like I don't understand why you need to see a character as perfect unblemished angel to be called a true fan of him. Cap is my favorite character and actually I like that we've seen some questionable doings from him, it makes him even more dimensional and interesting.

And yes, agree. I see many people from team Cap hating on Tony, which upsets me. I'm team Cap without a doubt, but the beauty of CW was in all this 'nobody is right, nobody is wrong' situation. Tony definitely had his reasons to do what he did and I can't hate him even for his attempt to kill Bucky, cause I'm not sure what I would have done on his place. Now he has come back to his senses and he isn't searching for Bucky to finish him. He doesn't seek revenge. Tony is not so bad as people often see him. He just discovered the truth a the horribly wrong place and wrong time.

What I actually don't like in characters are usually not their flaws but inconsistencies in writing. Which a few of the CW's characters actually have, but Tony and Steve are not among them.

 

[jaqua99]

Sorry to interfere, but I beg to disagree. Steve is as far from "people pleaser" as you are going to get. He is one of the most independent persons of the MCU. He always does what he sees fit and right for him. He doesn't care if everyone is against him.

Not to mention that he had never had any kind of close relationship with Tony to care so deeply about his feelings. I'm simply not buying it. People often forget that Howard was Steve's friend too, not only Tony's father. So to know that his best friend killed his other friend... It's pretty messed up. Add to this that he probably didn't want Tony to know and go after Bucky with all his resources. So I see it more like a selfish reason. Which is a good development for the character, showing his human and vulnerable side. No one can be selfless and perfect 24/7. Everyone has a dark side. Which is why I like this foreshadowing from AoU:
- I don't trust people without a dark side. Call me old fashioned.
- Well, maybe you just haven't seen mine yet.

He isn't a people pleaser. I made that clear when I said he *isn't neurotic. I was just giving him a run down on neuroticism and how such people TRY to be perfect 24/7, before going out to say thie ISN'T Steve. I was just alluding to his lying and nothing more. The rest was just an fyi, but anyways, lets get back to Rhodey.

Hated him in this. Too authororitarian and pushy righteousness.

His comment about Steve's POV being dangerously arrogant was ironic.

"This isn't world security, shield, or HYDRA, its THE UNITED NATIONS." THAT comment is arrogant.

Especially in a world of super powered people. THE United Nations, more significant than all the others?

HYDRA almost took over the world by one man. Cap stopped him. Rhody is arrogantly wrong in this movie and made him unlikeable. Vision was being objective, Rhodey wasn't

 

[Confusion]

lets get back to Rhodey.

Hated him in this. Too authororitarian and pushy righteousness.

His comment about Steve's POV being dangerously arrogant was ironic.

"This isn't world security, shield, or HYDRA, its THE UNITED NATIONS." THAT comment is arrogant.

Especially in a world of super powered people. THE United Nations, more significant than all the others?

HYDRA almost took over the world by one man. Cap stopped him. Rhody is arrogantly wrong in this movie and made him unlikeable. Vision was being objective, Rhodey wasn't

THANK YOU! I agree 100%.
I know they had to make him absolutely in favor of the Accords, but I don't see how him acting like that would get anyone on his side.

So I am very curious on what his part is in IW & if he's calmed down any since being grounded.

 

[jaqua99]

THANK YOU! I agree 100%.
I know they had to make him absolutely in favor of the Accords, but I don't see how him acting like that would get anyone on his side.

So I am very curious on what his part is in IW & if he's calmed down any since being grounded.

I know he's a military man and that personality goes hand in hand with it, especially in fiction, but it seems like he wasn't that extreme in the rest of the movies.

I also love the comments about Thor and Banner, and how Ross made Thor out to be Cap's responsibility.

An Asgardian being of magic, older than civilization probably has a bit more leeway. Liked them being compared to nukes haha.

 

[KevTravels]

THANK YOU! I agree 100%.
I know they had to make him absolutely in favor of the Accords, but I don't see how him acting like that would get anyone on his side.

So I am very curious on what his part is in IW & if he's calmed down any since being grounded.

I concur. I would wager he will still be supportive of them until he realizes that they do nothing against the threat of Thanos and he changes his view.

I would figure he has a smaller role in the film, equivalent to his appearance in Ultron.

 

[Bren]

"This isn't world security, shield, or HYDRA, its THE UNITED NATIONS." THAT comment is arrogant.

I took that as more him saying that it isn't just one group of people wanting this, but a lot of countries/people/nations and that Cap can't just ignore such support.

Not saying the UN IS any better, but I took it he was saying "don't ignore the people"...

I like Rhodey so I'm happy to possibly twist what he says to my preference

 

[KevTravels]

Outside of the battle in Sokovia, Rhodes can be a bit condescending as he didn't play a role in the other attacks that had loss of life and billions of dollars in damage.

Though his comments on the previous actions of the Avengers, I wonder is he still a full time military officer while he is on Avengers missions?


BTW what are your guys fav scenes or quotes by Rhodes?

 

[Iceman]

I love his AoU cameo against the drones in midair and his reaction to Vision. Also love his story punchline that didn't work on Thor and Stark at the party, but went down well with the regular guests.

 

[Xeno]

Rhodey was an active duty officer in the US Air Force as of Iron Man 3. His armor still had military serial numbers on it in CW, IIRC. Marvel has made a mistake in having Rhodes stay static at the rank of lieutenant colonel since Iron Man. An Air Force officer would have promoted several times over nine years. Failure to earn a promotion over so many years would have ended his career in the real world. In fact, there is no reason why Rhodes wouldn't be at least a brigadier general by the time of CW, given his achievements and status as a hero.

 

[Iceman]

Yeah, would have nice to see him attain a higher rank. I hope he makes a cameo in a CM film one day (even if not the first film).

 

[Brian Braddock]

I love Cheadle as an actor and I love his Rhodey, so yeah, I'd like to see him get more to do.

I definitely prefer him over Terence Howard, who didn't seem to get that Rhodey is Tony's sidekick, although I am grateful to him as if he hadn't had that pay dispute with Marvel he most likely would have stayed in the role and we'd never have got Don.

 

[RacerX]

Like.