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Discussion in 'Captain America: Civil War' started by See Cap Run, Jun 21, 2016.
Cap is number one so he can be tony
Well, to me, no it wasn't, it bothered me on first viewing but I thought on re-watches it would bother me less, but sadly the opposite has been true. I have read through this thread hoping to find something I missed.
People say Iron Mans arm was broke, sorry I don't see that. For one, your arm being in a sling doesn't mean your arm is broke, for two, if it was broke I imagine he would have gotten a cast on it rather than just a sling. For 3 it didn't seem to bother him when ripping open the huge metal door with both hands to get into the Siberia complex or when he ***** slapped Cap.
People say Cap is the best hand to hand fighter in the MCU and that's why he could handle Iron Man. Well no, Thor would be the best hand to hand fighter in the MCU as he has a lot more years experience doing it than Cap has. And yet, Iron Man was able to go toe to toe with Thor for a while before Thor got the upper hand. Yes, he had a power boost, but he still had to show some skill in battle against Thor as he was still outmatched. He has also had his fair share of hand to hand fights in the suite so while he is no Cap in hand to hand, he is no slouch either. So the parts where he is just standing/lying there while Cap lays into him also doesn't make sense.
People say Iron Man was emotionally compromised, well yeah, anyone would be in that situation. But he has been emotional in battle before, but he still managed to beat The Mandarin after Pepper 'died' and fight the battle of New York when Coulson did also.
I have also seen people say IM's suit was damaged from the Airport battle with Ant Man, well, again, no evidence of this in the finale. As the same arm AM damaged seemed to be working fine in the finale. The repulsor light was even back on after going off in the airport battle after AM did his damage.
Also, some moments just really bother me. Yes, Cap is stronger in the movies, than he is in the comics. But him catching IM mid flight was just a step too far for me. Even before his power boost he was able to knock Thor off his feet in mid flight in Avengers and has done much more in previous movies. Cap catching him was just not a believable moment for me.
Bucky being able to hold him against a wall was another one. Again, the suit has shown multiple strength feats far beyond what Bucky has, War Machine commented in AOU his suit could lift and carry a tank, and his is less advanced than IM's. Yet Bucky can hold IM against a wall for a little while? Sorry no, that's another unbelievable moment for me.
Then there is Cap being to damage the armour, I have mentioned the damage to one of his feet thrusters previously. But Cap having the strength to break apart the helmet and and shove his shield into IM's armour to de-power it again felt a step too far. IM's suit has previously been able to take tank shells full on, a full on hit from Thor with Mjolnir, both with minimal damage, along with being able to take alien weaponry and even a trip through a leviathan with no damage at all. People say Cap held his own against Ultron, well IM didn't even get a scratch from his encounter with him, and kicked Ultron's ass pretty much. Now people might say the Extremis soldiers tore apart the armour in IM3, but it was pretty clear in the movie those suits were prototypes made when Tony was having PTSD issues.
So to sum up, sorry, no, it wasn't believable for me. It doesn't ruin the movie, but it does diminish the finale for me. I just think with better writing there would have been a more believable way around this and think it was a bit lazy on the film makers parts.
Where has it ever been shown that Thor is particularly skilled in hand to hand? Aside from Mjolnir, his main asset is his enormous strength and brute force which overpowers his enemies. He's a great warrior but he's not particularly agile or quick, he doesn't have a lot of complex moves and he is certainly not the tactical genius that Steve is. Also let's recall that many complained Thor was nerfed in that fight to make IM look better.
Steve was able to damage a quinjet with his shield in TWS and he was able to damage Ultron so he does have the strength to damage the suit. And the shield is certainly able to deflect blows or pulsor shots from Iron Man and we've seen it before.
The suit was damaged pre final fight - as was his body - when Wanda and Clint dropped all those cars on him and then Scott messed around with his circuitry. His suit isn't shrugging off one or two blows or even half a dozen but repeated blows which are also buffeting around the man inside and in the end the only thing that disables it is still Steve destroying the arc reactor.
Considering the confines of the fight area Tony also couldn't blast off at full force or even near when he tried to take flight like he could outside vs Thor. Steve disabling his thruster is quite believable.
As for hand to hand fighting, in the suit since when? The suit is not agile like the human body. Even out of the suit while he's capable fighter but he wouldn't be able to beat Hawkeye let alone come near Steve's skill.
Tony again was not trying to kill Steve (at least at first), he was trying to get past him to Bucky and in the words of the director commentary tear Bucky apart close up and personal. He didn't want a quick death for Bucky.
Tony didn't defeat the Mandarin after Pepper died, Pepper did when she un-died.
Yeah it was believable because Cap is such a good hand to hand fighter (I assume he learned during that period in the first Cap movie where they're just montaging through stuff)
That's why when Iron Man was able to analyze his fight pattern that Cap got his ass handed to him.
Skill can beat strength many times.
Thor has been fighting hand to hand for hundreds if not thousands of years, you telling me he hasn't had plenty of practice in that time?
Damaging the suit with the shield I didn't have that much of a problem with, though I still think Steve isn't strong enough to put the shield straight into the chest plate. Which has taken Tank shells and Mjolnir full on in the past. As well as breaking a wing off a jet.
The suit was damaged in the previous fight yes, but looked in full working order in the finale. Hence IM being able to shoot repulsor Rays from it again, and being able to tear open a huge metal door. He could also fly fine, his suit showed no ill effects so quite easily could have been repaired in the meantime.
Yes they were in a short space, IM was still quick enough to grab Bucky and fly him against the wall though. Steve disabling the thruster I didn't have a problem with, but Steve catching IM mid flight with one and being able to hold him there? That is just not believable to me.
IM has fought Thor, Whiplash (twice), War Machine, and Extrmemis soldiers as well as The Mandarin hand to hand in the suit. Throw Hulk and Ultron in as well. So, in answer to your question, he has fought hand to hand in the suit plenty of times, throw in a few more from this movie also.
Tony did defeat The Mandarin after Pepper died, Pepper just finished him off when he was healing. He could barely even walk at the time.
Just curious though, the points you didn't refute, did you agree with them?
Tony fighting hand to hand many times in the MCU doesn't make him a good fighter. That's why Cap had him against the wall beating the **** out of him. Even when he "supposedly fights hand to hand", it's not even comparable to when Steve fights. Tony relies on his repulsors and weapons a lot more than he does Hand to to hand. Even when he fought Killian, he was still getting his ass kicked throughout the fight. Same with Whiplash, Stane and Thor. Watch the fights and see he relies more on his repulsors than actually engaging hand to hand.
True, but Tony not lifting a finger when Cap had him against the wall doesn't make any sense. All I was saying is it's not like Tony has never been in a fight, why wasn't he fighting back?
We haven't seen any evidence of it in the movies and he's never had to rely on those kind of skill sets because of his strength. He fights like a Viking Beserker which is very fitting for the kind of warrior he is. It's like asking why doesn't the Hulk learn Tae Kwon Do - why would he?
Just because it could still perform some takes does not mean its in full working order or that the suit's metal platting is at full integrity. We also saw that Tony sustains damage when in his suit. He had multiple contusions on top of his already damaged arm when the car park fell on him.
He had no time to repair it from the events of the airport and showing up at the end. The suit wasn't received a few blows but a flurry of them in that last fight and inside Tony was taking on more damage.. We saw Steve throw and then drive the shield into a quinjet and damage it, we've also seen him rip the top off of tanks and submarines and lift a muti ton beam off of Bucky. Even so the suit was only defeated when Steve was able to disable the arc reactor.
He's not going to be able to fly with any speed or power lest he also smash himself into the wall. The limitations of the space hurt his mobility and ability to use flight with significant power.
That is not any high level skill of hand to hand. Those fights are mostly dependent on the strength of the suit and except for Killian he's also fighting against strength more than skill
Yes Tony could barely walk so if Mandarin had time to heal he would have been toast without Pepper.
Not that I recall, I was mostly just trying to keep it brief (I failed) and not do the entire multi quote thing. t:
Ever watch a boxing match? Steve was giving him no chance to fight back. I was actually surprised how fast Steve was pummeling Tony. It just showed how much of a skilled fighter Steve is. That's why FRIDAY told him he couldn't beat Steve hand to hand.
We saw plenty of evidence of it in Thor 1, vs the Frost Giants, then the SHIELD guys when he has no powers, and against The Destroyer. Brute strength wasn't his only asset in those fights. He showed skill also.
Well that's another gripe, cars damaged the armour but Mjolnir couldn't? Not to mention there was no talk or indication in the finale his suit wasn't in full working order. He was able to perform every task with no issues. He had no trouble with arm in the final scene with Rhodey either even out of the armour.
He had enough time to get a sling on his arm and fly to the raft. You telling me also there was no time between the airport scene and the Avengers being put in the raft? Were they just teleported there?
And yet in the movie you see him flying quickly before Steve unrealistically catches him with one arm.
I never said Tony is has a high skill level, just that he has some experience in fighting. You also see him fight training in IM2. He is no amateur.
But despite being emotionally compromised he was still able to think straight enough to do plenty of damage and nearly finish Mandarin, that was my point.
As for your last paragraph, fair enough .
I have done boxing training, not extensively, but you get your hands up to protect yourself at least, not just stand there. And at least try and throw a punch back.
Did u not see how fast Cap was moving though? I get what you're saying but everything was happening fast in that fight. Watch it again. There was even a blink and you miss it moment where Cap was even using his shield to hold Tony against the wall. And Stark is in suit of armour. I don't think he really needs to put his arms up though. The shield wasn't doing any damage to him. Steve was just pummeling him. I used the boxing analogy because I sometimes see fighter backed into a corner where they can't fight back because they're opponent doesn't give them the chance to.
Thor's skill set is not Steve's sill set. They just aren't comparable. There is no sign of the dexterity, innovation and quickness that Steve shows in a multitude of fight scenes. Again, why should there be? Thor has other strengths and advantages Steve doesn't.
Tony's not an amateur but he's fighting against someone who is the best of the best. The skill levels are just not comparable when it comes hand to hand even if the suit is not the ideal attire for hand to hand.
Tony isn't flying that quickly, if he was he'd have exploded out of that bunker and into and through the roof. He might be going as fast as a car - that Steve is capable of chasing down. Steve can run at 60mph and possesses excellent reflexes.
Tony took Rhodey to the hospital while the others were rounded up and taken to the Raft. Then Tony had to go to the Raft to talk to Sam and then he left. Meanwhile Steve and Bucky are just arriving at the Bunker via Quinjet. The question is how he gets there so quickly and has time to even do that and not why he also doesn't have time to fix his suit.
Sure it did. When Thor lights Tony up there's a sizeable break in IM's armor in the exact location where Uru earlier met titanium alloy. It's awfully hard to miss.
Ok. Seeing those panels you posted, you convinced me.
Being fair, Thor comes off, to me, as highly skilled. Its just that his fighting style gives much more emphasis to striking single decisive blows, and parrying/avoiding the same while ignoring the rest. Thor reasonably expects that, against almost all foes he fights, one good blow is enough, so rather than dilly dallying with lots of rapid light attacks, just go for that one blow, only stopping to block if there's an attack he can't just shrug off.
Note, by contrast, how much dodging, attacking, and parring there is when he fights Loki, an opponent who can both largely match him, and where he *doesn't* want to make single decisive strikes.
who said it is the same suit?
Yeah the break is near the arc reactor.
I know the crack is there, it's from when Thor shoots Tony with lightning and it's on the chest plate, but I am talking at the end of the fight when Cap intervenes, Tony's armour takes a full on physical hit from Mjolnir and has no damage after it or the explosion after. But Steve can damage it with a metal shield and his bare hands? Not for me.
Exactly, you don't fight for thousands of years without having some significant skill. He is a prince of a warrior race of Gods. Thor also did a lot more dodging against Hulk than other enemy's. He adapts his style when there is someone he can't beat with just physical prowess. That shows how much skill he has.
This might be the nittiest of nitpicks. I truly don't see how this could bother anyone that much.
I mean you don't see anyone complaining Batman being able to survive being thrown through walls and walking away unscathed to battle a room full of guys with no injuries. Kryptonite or not, even with a suit of armour. The BvS fight shouldn't have lasted that long.
I had no problem with the 3 way fight. Sure IM was slightly under powered But they gave me enough reason to believe that two super soldiers can take on IM. They did a great job of setting it up. Especially Cap through out the MCU. If it was just after TFA, I would have called bs on the fight. But after TWS and AoU? Yeah I believe Cap can take on Stark. Even then, Cap and Bucky were down and IM was still standing towards the end of the fight.
This never happened. Any damage Steve did to the armour was with the use of his shield. You know, the strongest metal in the MCU.
And Steve's punches' main purpose was to keep Tony off-balance so he couldn't retaliate. Now, to be fair, Tony should be able to anchor himself so that he'll become unmovable when dealing with Cap, but that can be chalked up to Tony's irrational state.
Well this was my main issue, with better writing they could have got around this to the point where people wouldn't question it. I love the before and after of that scene, but during the fight it bothers me that IM is nerfed just so Cap can win. Take a few scenes out like Bucky holding IM against a wall and Cap catching IM in mid air and I would have less of a problem with it.
As for Batman, his armoured suit designed to take on people too strong for him took the main brunt of the damage. But that's a different argument and it amazes me how many MCU fans bring that movie up in defence of MCU.
As for it being a nitpick, it seems for some posters every complaint about the MCU is a nitpick.
Strongest metal in the MCU I will give you, but again, a full hit from Mjolnir or a tank shell can't damage the armour, but Cap can? With or without a Vibranium shield that's a stretch.