Was Cap being able to hold his own in battle against Iron Man believable to you?

Discussion in 'Captain America: Civil War' started by See Cap Run, Jun 21, 2016.

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Was it believable to you that Cap could hold his own in battle against Iron Man?

  1. Yes

  2. No

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  1. TeeKay Registered

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    Here I admitted to IM being depowered. The reason I brought Bvs up is because the two fight are comperarble. Its two less powerful characters taking more powerful characters. We have to suspend out disbelief because both fights could have ended in less than a minute if the more powerful characters wanted it. I actually had no problem with that fight from Hero vs Hero standpoint. I brought it.


    Not really a stretch, Cap directly targeted the arc reactor. Which is by far one of the weakest parts of Starks suit. If you wanna beat you every, you exploit their weaknesses.
     
  2. Ms. Marvel Screwed up Avenger

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  3. OcStat Registered

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    I think Captain America by himself could probably beat Iron Man if he really had to/wanted to. This was two super soldiers fighting Iron Man. And the movie made it apparent that it was not an easy task, at all. Both Cap and Bucky could barely stand afterwards, as it should be.

    It's the most brutal MCU beat down since Hulk vs. Abomination. I don't think the movie strained credibility with this fight.
     
  4. AVEITWITHJAMON Darksider

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    Yeah IM being de powered was my main problem though. They overpowered him in AOU, but if you make him that powerful keep him there, that's my view, I like consistency.

    As for Batman, he had Kryptonite and his armour was a mess by the end even still. We saw him in pain at points also. BvS also clearly showed Batman was out of his league and needed careful planning to beat his opponent. Had Bucky/Cap done something to Tony's armour at the start of the fight to make it weaker, I could have accepted how the rest of the fight went. Or perhaps if Tony was in his suitcase armour from IM2


    He broke apart IM's helmet before that, which has also took serious damage without breaking apart previously.
     
  5. Doctor Octopus Registered

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    How was Iron Man over powered in Age of ultron?
     
  6. TheVileOne Registered

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    Mjolnir. You don't say?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    There is no over-powering. When Thor and Iron Man fought Thor did do significant damage to the armor. However, the lightning energy was somehow absorbed by Iron Man and somehow gave him a power-up too.

    However, Iron Man's suit was still clearly left damaged from the fight as well.

    [YT]Y1g-B8BJzwc[/YT]
     
    #81 TheVileOne, Sep 22, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
  7. TeeKay Registered

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    I never felt he was OP in AoU. If they kept him there as you say, then we'd know the outcome of the final fight in CW.

    Yes I saw all that in BvS. How Bruce managed to walk away from that fight unscathed and go and beat up a bunch of thugs in the warehouse fight was questionable though. Thats like Cap walking away from his brutal fught with IM and beat up a bunch of dudes like he did as if he wasbt in a fught before. But you know BatGod. In regards to CW, His armour was compromised though in the airport right and throughout the fight FRIDAY keeps mentioning its been damaged. Power consistency will always vary in Superhero movies no matter what. It takes a damn good writer to make sure said powerful characters stay consistent ad possible or write around situations like that. Characters like Thor, Superman, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel,Drax etc are all powered down in some way or form when facing less powerful forces given the context of the story. Inconsistencies are more noticeable when they directly affect the plot and story of the film. Especially when films established rules and bend said rules for plot reasons which is the case of bad writing. IMO the Three way fight worked for me. If Cap or Bucky walked away unscathed I'd have called bs. Everyone knew that IM was going to be underpowered in CW or else the fight wouldn't have happened at all. Its a nitpick at best. You enjoyed it less. That's cool. But for some of us we were more engaged in the emotional aspect of the fight rather than the technicalities of it.

    By continously bashing it while Starks head was lying under concrete. The face plate can be damaged. Stark was able to tear off War Machines with ease after Rhodes went down. When did the helmet take serious damage without breaking apart in the film?:huh:

    Because he knocked out Hulk. :yuk::o
     
    #82 TeeKay, Sep 22, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
  8. OcStat Registered

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    Varying power levels has always been a thing in comics; and with writers that have spent way wore time with these characters than the writers for the movies. It's totally a non-issue. I'd say it's inevitable.
     
  9. Wildcard Cataclysmic Titan

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    I did find it believable considering Captain America has been portrayed as more and more of an outright superhuman instead of his capabilities being the "peak" for a normal human.

    Iron Man's suit, while powerful, doesn't really grant him an invulnerability card. So with someone like Cap who has so much experience, resourcefulness and tactical skill, it's 100% believable for him to be able to throw down with Iron Man.

    This is the same man that, by and large, was able to fight pretty evenly with Loki. So it's not a stretch at all for him to do the same (or even better) with Iron Man.
     
  10. KRYPTON INC. Incorporated Kryptonian

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    Are Caps or Bucky's punches more powerful than a shell fired from a tank? No? Well... There's my answer.

    [YT]3o2ACEr9NmQ[/YT]

    It's a good film, and the drama of that conflict was THE high point of the film for me... But even under the umbrella of suspension of disbelief it in no way passes the smell test, sorry.

    This in general is a problem some writers/creators/film makers seem to have in regards to these characters interacting far too often. Are all of these characters ideally equal in heroism? Absolutely. On the battlefield though, making them equal in outcomes is pretty silly. You see this a lot in toons, especially AVENGERS ASSEMBLED.

    Gamma powered monster that lifts hundreds of tons, Asgardian god, espionage agent, archer and super soldier... Eh, all the same thing, right? The worst was in AGE OF ULTRON. Look... These characters are all extraordinary in many ways and as I said, should be presented as equal in heroism... But it's silly to have Cap, Widow and Hawkeye one shotting metal drones shown to be tough enough to dig themselves out from under solid concrete with no damage. There shouldn't have been a CAP 3 cuz honestly, Ultron should have made him a red, white and blue paste on top of that truck, shield or no shield the way that was written. It's fine to show the ingenuity of a character as they confront more powerful foes. But that's usually not what we get. It makes little sense actually when you think about it.

    Now... Did that ruin the film for me? No. But I know it's total plot armor BS and have no problem admitting it.
     
  11. TeeKay Registered

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    Plot amour will always exist between these characters. There's no way around it. In AoU the Avengers were OP for thematic reasons. The film set that up in the opening scene. Obviously if we're going to talk technicalities of the fight then yes, its unbelievable. It shouldn't have lasted as long as it did.
     
  12. KRYPTON INC. Incorporated Kryptonian

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    As I stated... I accept that it is plot armor BS. I admit it is so and in the big picture it doesn't ruin CW. As I said, DRAMATICALLY it is the high point of the film for me... But it's nonsense, even operating under suspension of disbelief rules as I see it. I wish others would too when these debates come up but people choose to see what they want it seems.
     
  13. TeeKay Registered

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    IM was underpowered as I said so in this thread. There was no way else the fight could have happened if Starks armour was the way it has been portrayed in other films. The film went out of its way to make sure we believe that two super solidiers can take on IM. I don't really see how else the Russos with M&M could have written it tbh. When it was announced that it was going to be CE, I'm sure everyone expected IM to be nerfed a lil bit to allow the fight to happen. It's fine if people don't accept it but it is what it is I guess.
     
  14. Doctor Octopus Registered

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    Agreed but I think he talking about Age of ultron.
     
  15. Zarex Registered

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    The tank shell was a one-time hit that impacted the strongest section of the IM armor while he was in flight. The punches were delivered multiple times by two extremely powerful and skilled combatants and directed at the weaker sections of the armor whilst grounded. Now can I get my No-Prize?

    The tissue-bots were a poor choice, especially in light of Whedon featuring the similarly inept Chituari a few years prior. I would have went with fewer, specialized Ultrons. Hulk, Iron Man and Thor take on a Giant Man sized monstrosity, a homage to the comic version of Ultron-7. Cap, Hawkeye and Widow would fight a heavily weaponized version reminiscent of Ultron-6. And the Vision and the twins would battle Ultron Prime.
     
  16. That9neGuy Registered

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    Then you also have IM 3 where the armor was torn apart like a piñata so it's not like the power level has been consistent
     
  17. TheVileOne Registered

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    Except the people tearing apart the armor in Iron Man 3 were superhumans who had explosive heat powers that could break and melt the armor.

    Plus, the Mark 42 was only a prototype armor anyway meant to have all those different pieces. It clearly had a lot of bugs and vulnerabilities.
     
  18. TheVileOne Registered

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    Captain America needed less than a minute to take down a Quinjet.

    [YT]txDqjuqRK5s[/YT]

    He was able to pull down a helicopter from taking off.

    [YT]1ccey7IJLCM[/YT]

    Let's stop pretending he doesn't have bigger than normal strength.
     
    #93 TheVileOne, Sep 23, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
  19. AVEITWITHJAMON Darksider

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    OP maybe not, but he was definitely overpowered for me, and for more reasons than you list at the bottom of your post :cwink:.



    That's my issue though, I loved the emotions aspects of the fight. But the technicalities bring it down for me, with better writing this wouldn't have been an issue though. IMs armour showed no damage from the airport fight. There is nothing even to say it's the same suit. The repulsor light was back on on the hand, IM was able to fly there no problems, and proceeded to rip apart a huge metal door that the 2 super soldiers had to walk through.

    Have Cap or Bucky have something on them that weakens the armour, or have IM get there with the suitcase armour from IM2 and explain it was the only functioning armour he had. There were certainly other ways around it apart from under powering IM.

    As for Bats, he isn't the only human hero who shows no ill effects from a huge beating or doing things a human shouldn't be able to do. Plus as I said his armour in the fight took the brunt of the damage.



    Concrete hadn't been a problem in the past, Stark's house fell on the Mark. 42 with a direct hit on the head from a huge concrete slab in IM3. The same armour then crash landed head first at high speed with no damage to it. The same armour was broken apart by a high speed truck but the helmet pretty much stayed intact and had no damage. And that was just a prototype. Thor also got some good hits on IMs helmet in Avengers without any damage being done to it. Thor head butted IM hard enough to send him flying back, yet the helmet had no damage to it after. Not to mention the fall after taking the tank shell in IM1. Those are multiple examples of the helmet surviving heavy hits without breaking apart or being damaged.



    Good one, but there was more than that :woot:.

    Cap fought pretty evenly with Loki? Loki wiped the floor with him, Caps punches were shown to have little to no effect and Loki was toying with him before IM showed up.

    Spot on :up:. Though for me, it does bring the final fight down a little bit. I think really the question isn't if it was believable, because it wasn't IMO. But whether it bothers you in the fight or not. It does bother me and brings the fight down a little.
     
    #94 AVEITWITHJAMON, Sep 24, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016
  20. Havok83 Registered

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    Yes. Iron Man isnt a god and the movie handled the fight well
     
  21. TeeKay Registered

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    So you're telling me Stark has two versions of the exact same suit?:huh: And I didn't mention any damage from the airport fight. I was talking about damage happening during his fight with Bucky and Steve.

    What exactly did you have in mind that would weaken Starks armour. And no he doesn't own the suitcase armour anymore. That was destroyed in IM3 I think.

    Yeah after being thrown through walls and fighting a God? No. Even Stark in his armour still takes damage. Bruises and and cuts.

    That was actually on his chest and not head and you can see the damage (near the chest arc reactor) after the house attack.

    [​IMG]

    Yes and it was also a prehensile suit. Heck even after his nightmare, Stark hit it once and fell apart.

    Nope. That's inaccurate. When Thor head butts him, there's a dent on the face plate. Watch it again.

    :up:
     
  22. AVEITWITHJAMON Darksider

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    Ah okay I misunderstood. But the damage they did in the final battle they shouldn't have been able to do in my eyes. Especially Cap catching IM mid flight and Bucky holding him against the wall.



    They could have used a variety of things, as far as I remember it's what Caps side does in the comics CW as the first time they fight Cap is shown to be not in the same league as IM. As for the suitcase armour, they could have just explained he rebuilt it. Not hard. Heck, Black Panther could have even intervened after subduing Zemo as the fight still went on after that moment.



    Batmans armour looked well capable of surviving being thrown through a wall, even then a weakened Superman was able to do damage to it. How do you know Batman didn't have cuts and bruises? We only see his face for the rest of the movie. Plus he gets shot and stabbed in the warehouse fight which may have been down to him being tired from the previous fight.



    He was also buried under the house rubble which would have been on the helmet also. The suit was also blown into a wall with Pepper inside and survived fine, with her even having rubble fall on the back of the suit, helmet included. Yes it was a prehensile suit, but still crash landed head first with no damage to the helmet and survived plenty more. And that was just a prototype.



    So a head butt from a God can dent the armour, yet Cap can smash it to pieces? This is just another inaccuracy in that final fight. There were other ways they could have done it.
     
  23. TeeKay Registered

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    Widow was keeping up with Iron Man mid flight during their charging scene. When Cap caught him, he wasn't even flying fast enough to drag Cap with him. Otherwise he'd have went straight through the wall.


    Why would Stark use arguably his weakest armour to battle super soldiers. He's not dumb. That's like bring a knife to a gun battle.

    Are you actually serious?:huh: T'Challa had just completed his arc about vengeance and you want him to go and try and intervene in a death match between IM, Bucky and Cap? He has no stake in that fight anymore. Why would he go and try and prevent it? IM is fighting for the exact same reason that T'Challa was before realising Bucky was framed.

    My point was that he just got up after fighting Superman who he had trouble with and straight into fighting thugs with no ease. I called bs on that. It don't ruin the awesome fight but I was like yeah no whatever, I'll roll with it. What happened in the warehouse fight doesn't invalidate point earlier. It's irrelevant because I'm not talking about the ware house fight but rather him getting up from his fight with a God to straight out beating the **** out of thugs.


    I don't get your point with Pepper. Being blown to the wall and catching bits of rubble is not the same as having an entire house fall on you. It's irrelevant really. It's like saying Iron Monger slammed Stark to the ground helmet included and he was fine.:huh: Okay? But Cao specifically hit the helmet using his own raw strength. A guy who can stop a helicopter from taking off ( which is by far his biggest fear of strength), a guy who can throw a motorbike and can take down a fighter jet using nothing but skill and strength.

    Cap didn't smash it to pieces. You're exaggerating. He hit it twice and it got loose and he removed it. You can still see it when Stark tells Cap that the shield doesn't belong to him. In the movies, Cap is more powerful. People keep forgetting this. The other side of the argument is IM this, IM that while completely ignoring the feats Cap has in the MCU. He's not weak. If Cap can jam his shield into a wing of a jet with using raw strength (during his escape from Shield in TWS), how could he not do the same to IM's face plate. I already said it, IM was nerfed but even then, Cap and Bucky still struggled to beat him. Well just agree to disagree.
     
    #98 TeeKay, Sep 24, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016
  24. metaphysician Not a Side-Kick

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    Honestly, I don't even think Iron Man was nerfed. His armors have always been somewhat susceptible to accumulated damage hurting their capacity, and the environment of the battle played against all his strengths that would have made the point moot. So, poor environment, terrible state of mind, two to one odds. . . and he still almost beat them both.
     
  25. Zarex Registered

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    If you can swallow an un-enhanced middle-aged man suffering no apparent injuries after a battle with a space-god that included being thrown through a brick building, buying into the outcome of the Bucky-Cap-Tony battle should be a frickin' walk in the park.
     

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