"Wasted Motion"

[bosef982]

Did you even watch the movie?

Beast: "How long will you keep the boy here?"
Dr. Rao: "Until we can fully map his DNA, we can replicate it, but we cannot generate it."

Without the boy, and his DNA, they cannot make the cure. Therefore they cannot continue to produce it. Therefore, simply supply and demand dictates that it will eventually run out. Therefore, there will eventually be no more cure.






The Phoenix doesn't want to be locked up again. Anyone that is a threat to that, Xavier, soldiers, and she even toyed with Magneto a bit, she will off. But you think that after that, she's just going to be all nice and peachy? Did you not listen to the Professor?

"A creature full of desire, joy, andRAGE"

You do know that more than one thing can piss someone off, right? And you do realize that when Phoenix was pissed off, people paid, right?

THOSE were the stakes. The kind of damage that could happen if she was left alone, and not destroyed. The killing of Cyclops, Xavier, and all those soldiers on Alcatraz show just how real those stakes were. And it's not like it'd just end at Alcatraz.



Magneto destroying the source of the cure would have destroyed the cure. They would not be able to create it anymore. And they would run out. They would no longer have cure weapons anymore to use against mutants. They'd no longer have cure clinics to cure the mutants. It would be GONE.

I need to think about it? I think YOU do. You're totally ignoring the pieces of the puzzle the movie flat out told you. You think that just because the cure has been distributed, that it is now an infinate source and they can just make it whenever they want. But they can't. Yes the cure has been distributed, and yes mutants have been cured, but by destroying the cure, the cure will eventually run out, no more will be made, and the humans won't have their weapons against the mutants. And then, nothing CAN stop them...



Because he needed to destroy the cure first, to destroy the weapon the humans had against them.

If destroying the cure was the final goal of the Brotherhood, and of Magneto, he would not have said "And then, NOTHING CAN STOP US!" But the fact that he did, shows that he has bigger plans beyond just Alcatraz. They weren't explicitly stated, but since they aren't a direct part of the plot, it doesn't need to be. It just needs to be known that once Magneto destroys the cure, the humans won't have much of a defense against him when he continues his march, and the X-Men must stand against him now.



Watch the scene again. He is blatantly looking up. It's not even in question. Anyone who thinks he's actually in pain in that scene, and not recovering, has comprehension issues.

I'll more than admit that I missed that part in X3. Nevertheless, the point is limited in the contridiction of Leech. So, the cure had been mass distributed. This much is patently clear -- Rogue gets cured WHILE the final battle happens. So there is still a stockpile left over to be used -- so, still, Magneto's plan is half-baked. A lot of this has to do with execution of the plot elemenet. The X-Men and Beast are okay with having Leech contained at Alcatraz. However, Leech is then taken with the X-Men. Now, logically, doesn't it make sense that Leech will be handed back over to the authorities, where the cure will again be restarted and then we're back at the beginning of the movie, aren't we? I'm sure you'll say, "The X_Men won't do that!" But well then, why the hell were the X-Men so okay with him being detained for the other 1 hour and 20 minutes of the film, so much so that they come to the DEFENSE of the people making the cure?

It's called...poor execution and inconsitent character handling. Nothing makes sense at the end of the day in X-Men. No more than it makes sense to appoint a mutant UN ambassador after a mutant nearly destroys San Francisco (presumably) and causes the death of hundreds. Again, no point in history have we seen a violent protest in civil rights actually produce warmness and sympathy in society. So, just from a logical standpoint, mutants should be hated even MORE by the end of X3. Instead, everything's okay...why? Oh, because this was the last one and we needed it that way.

And, back to X2....you need to back up and realize that you are completely wrong -- just plain dead wrong -- on the President. Watch the ****ing scene...and learn some of those comprehension skills I apparently lack when I noticed the below:

The machine is activated, we get a swirling shot through Cerebro of all the millinos screaming and shouting in pain (whcih obviously wasn't high enough stakes for you) and then we zoom in on a body guard in the fetal position, then the President, gawking up in pain...

Furthermore, it would be impossible for him to be "awakening" from pain since the very next scene the X-Men are still OUTSIDE of Cerebro debating how to get inside and stop the machine.

So tell me, Nell, how is it possible for McKenna to "wake up" from pain when its just begun in that scene?

Secondly, so wow..she kills people? She doesn't want to be controlled? And that's interesting because....? That's pertinent because...? How was this executed and resolved?

And Magneto had bigger plans that weren't stated in this movie. Okay...so, at least you're admitting we got half a movie. This is the equivelant of Magneto saying "I'm making this machine that can mutate humans." "What for," asks the X-Men. Magneto: "oh, we're not covering that in this movie, we just need to have a reason for special FX." I mean, seriously, what kind of **** is that poor excuse -- "he needed to destroy the cure so the could do other things to humanity that were not explicitly or even implicity stated in the plot." Then I'll skip this movie and watch the next where something actually hAPPENS. And humanity will have no defense against Magneto???? I don't know, between Senator Kelly and William Stryker, humans weren't exactly "losing" the war against mutation. So I'm going to have to go here on record and say, cure or no cure, they would've had something else. Say, oh...some sort of virus...


And please, put your cross down Nell. Anyone stating either a positive or negative view on X3 will get strong responses in OPPOSITION to said view regardless. And any poster should expect that. Period. If you have problem wtih that, don't post.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I'll more than admit that I missed that part in X3. Nevertheless, the point is limited in the contridiction of Leech. So, the cure had been mass distributed. This much is patently clear -- Rogue gets cured WHILE the final battle happens. So there is still a stockpile left over to be used -- so, still, Magneto's plan is half-baked. A lot of this has to do with execution of the plot elemenet. The X-Men and Beast are okay with having Leech contained at Alcatraz. However, Leech is then taken with the X-Men. Now, logically, doesn't it make sense that Leech will be handed back over to the authorities, where the cure will again be restarted and then we're back at the beginning of the movie, aren't we? I'm sure you'll say, "The X_Men won't do that!" But well then, why the hell were the X-Men so okay with him being detained for the other 1 hour and 20 minutes of the film, so much so that they come to the DEFENSE of the people making the cure?

Well let's see...

Beast DID show concern regarding Leech's containment of the boy. But Worthington Labs followed all regulations, whatever those might have been. And I'm sure those regulations are more regarding experimentation with mutants, rather than detaining a young boy. And when you see Leech, it doesn't appear that he's being kept against his will. He's sitting in his room, playing video games, and appears to be enjoying himself. So either A. His family was okay with him being kept at the labs, or B. since it's Leech, who's a Morlock in the source material, he may very well not have a family, and this is actually the safest place for him.

After Magneto's assault on Alcatraz, the labs are destroyed. So even with Leech, there won't be much cure making anymore. And now that they have Leech, they take him back to the mansion, where he can be safe, and be amongst people like himself... you know, the whole purpose of the school.

It's called...poor execution and inconsitent character handling. Nothing makes sense at the end of the day in X-Men. No more than it makes sense to appoint a mutant UN ambassador after a mutant nearly destroys San Francisco (presumably) and causes the death of hundreds. Again, no point in history have we seen a violent protest in civil rights actually produce warmness and sympathy in society. So, just from a logical standpoint, mutants should be hated even MORE by the end of X3. Instead, everything's okay...why? Oh, because this was the last one and we needed it that way.

I'll admit that having Beast go to the UN was the wrong conclussion, he should have stayed at the school, and helped Storm to restart it.

But it also shows that the President realizes the error of his ways. He turned the cure into a weapon because "those mutants were a real threat." but by seeing mutants actually fight and defend the humans on Alcatraz, the President learned that not all mutants were bad, and to make up for his error regarding the cure, he appointed Beast as the ambassador to the UN... an acceptance of mutants, that not all mutants are extreme terrorists like Magneto, and that perhaps through diplomacy, and tolerance, perhaps mutants and humans CAN get along, and you can try to diminish future "Magnetos" from rising and plotting attacks.

And, back to X2....you need to back up and realize that you are completely wrong -- just plain dead wrong -- on the President. Watch the ****ing scene...and learn some of those comprehension skills I apparently lack when I noticed the below:

The machine is activated, we get a swirling shot through Cerebro of all the millinos screaming and shouting in pain (whcih obviously wasn't high enough stakes for you) and then we zoom in on a body guard in the fetal position, then the President, gawking up in pain...

Furthermore, it would be impossible for him to be "awakening" from pain since the very next scene the X-Men are still OUTSIDE of Cerebro debating how to get inside and stop the machine.

So tell me, Nell, how is it possible for McKenna to "wake up" from pain when its just begun in that scene?

Easy, the President is a mutant.

If you actually watch the scene, you'll see that he's waking up, he's regaining his composure. I've watched the scene a bazillion times, and I know what I saw. McKenna was recovering, not being effected.

Secondly, so wow..she kills people? She doesn't want to be controlled? And that's interesting because....? That's pertinent because...? How was this executed and resolved?

So in your mind, a mutant that kills people, that has the potential to destroy entire cities, and is mentally unstable, shouldn't be stopped?

Xavier isn't around anymore. He's not going to be able to put those mental blocks anymore. And the X-Men don't exactly have time to sit around and see if there's another telepath strong enough to put the same kind of blocks into Jean's mind.

Jean has TOTALLY lost control by this point. It's obvious that she cannot control the Phoenix persona. Yes, there are some bits where Jean comes out, but she can't take control. Phoenix has totally taken control, and something so mentally unstable, with so much potential for destruction, and so full of rage, obviously must be stopped. I mean, I don't even understand what you're arguing anymore.

And Magneto had bigger plans that weren't stated in this movie. Okay...so, at least you're admitting we got half a movie. This is the equivelant of Magneto saying "I'm making this machine that can mutate humans." "What for," asks the X-Men. Magneto: "oh, we're not covering that in this movie, we just need to have a reason for special FX." I mean, seriously, what kind of **** is that poor excuse -- "he needed to destroy the cure so the could do other things to humanity that were not explicitly or even implicity stated in the plot." Then I'll skip this movie and watch the next where something actually hAPPENS. And humanity will have no defense against Magneto???? I don't know, between Senator Kelly and William Stryker, humans weren't exactly "losing" the war against mutation. So I'm going to have to go here on record and say, cure or no cure, they would've had something else. Say, oh...some sort of virus...

The reason why they weren't explicitly stated is because 1. At the time, nobody knew what Magneto's next move might be and 2. Because they needed to stop Magneto then and there.

But it was pretty clear that Magneto's war would not stop at Alcatraz. That he would continue to wage his war against humans after he got ahold of the cure. But, it's 1 step at a time there buddy. It wasn't stated, because the plot entailed Magneto being defeated at Alcatraz.

Perhaps if he actually won his battle at Alcatraz, then the next movie could handle his next moves. But he was defeated, so whatever his next moves were didn't matter.

The movie did exactly what it should have; explained that there would be severe consequences if Magneto was not stopped, but not introduce yet another story arc that would never even be touched upon.

Seriously...

Magneto: "We're going to march on Alcatraz and destroy the cure! Then after the cure, we'll go to Washington and blow up the White House! And then after that we'll..."

*Magneto defeated at Alcatraz*

*Audience: What about all that stuff that was set up about Washington?*

And please, put your cross down Nell. Anyone stating either a positive or negative view on X3 will get strong responses in OPPOSITION to said view regardless. And any poster should expect that. Period. If you have problem wtih that, don't post.

I don't care about views in opposition to mine.

What I don't appreciate is your "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality. Trying to PROVE me wrong. Trying to TELL me that this movie sucked, and that it failed.

Guess what? You can't "prove" anything. That the movie sucked is YOUR opinion, one I don't share. The movie DIDN'T fail, not for me, so I don't appreciate you telling me that MY views are wrong because the movie failed, when it's obvious that I don't think this movie did.

Settle down and actually argue my points. Don't come up with **** to try to prove that your opinion is right and mine is wrong. That's not what this thread is here for.

If I had problems with opposing views, I'd be in heated debate with just about EVERYONE in this thread, because not many people seem to share my views (and 90% of them misinterpret my views to think that I mean character development and non-action moments = "wasted motion")

It's the way you present your views that I take exception too, especially when I already have instances of you exclaiming that personal opinion doesn't play a factor in what does or doesn't make a good movie.

I don't want to change your view of the movie. If you didn't like it, well, that sucks, because as X-Men fans, I wish we could all have something that we enjoy from these movies. But if you don't like it, that's your own personal opinion, and I don't wish to change it.

Just don't try to change mine, and try to "show" that I'm wrong for my view of the film.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I have a question for you Nell. I remember you being an X3 hater after the first time you saw the film. Could you please explain to me what was it about that second viewing that caused you to make a 180 degree turn in opinion because my opinion went down even more after my second viewing?

Sure, no problem.

The first time I went in, I didn't go in with an open mind, so to speak.

1. I was pissed off at the notion of Cyclops dying.
2. From all of the promotional material (trailers, TV spots, etc...) and the discussions with Kinberg and Penn over on X-Verse, I was expecting a totally different movie. The promotional material made this film out to be a Return of the King style epic.
3. The movie missed the heavy doses of character moments that Bryan Singer's X-Men and X2 contained, and also had a much faster pace that didn't allow things to breathe the way Singer's films did. I was caught off guard.
4. Despite not reading the initial AICN script review, I knew everything about the movie from my time spent on this forum for a year prior to the movie's release. So absolutley nothing about the movie surprised me the way it should have. I knew everything that was coming, when it was coming. Things that I would have highly enjoyed, such as the Danger Room, Sentinel, Moira McTaggert, and such, were all ruined because I knew they were coming.
5. Cyclops did get killed, and Rogue did get cured.

I ruined the film for myself, because of my time spent on this forum. If I never came to this forum, I guarantee that I would have loved this film upon first viewing. But I knew everything. All the good stuff to expect, I knew about. So when I saw it, I wasn't thrilled by it. It was "okay, knew this was coming, NEXT!" and I didn't give myself a chance to truly appreciate the film.

Upon second viewing, and even further (I saw it 7 times total in theatres, a few times on bootleg waiting for the DVD, and a bunch of times now that I have the DVD), this movie continues to get better and better. Because now, I have all that hype from a year on this forum out of my head. And I can watch it with a much more open mind now, and looking back, I can appreciate these things more.

Are there things about the movie I dislike? Absolutley.

But there are things that I dislike about X2 also. But that is still an amazing film.

The lack of character development doesn't bother me too much, because I've had 2 movies of that already. I know who these characters are, and why I love them so much. I know why it means so much for Wolverine to fight for Jean (even though it should be Cyclops, but whatever). I know why it's such an impact for Jean to destroy Xavier. I know why Magneto is fighting his war. I know these characters from 2 movies already. And where character development was needed, I feel it was there. I got a sense of who Beast was. Did I learn everything about him? No, but we didn't need to. He's a supporting character, and we don't need to learn as much about him as we do for Wolverine, or Jean, or Xavier, or Magneto... characters who were all developed in the two previous movies. And we are told enough about Beast to know who he is and why he's fighting.

Cyclops dying and Rogue being cured are extreme deviations from the source material, deviations that do bother me. And they are much worse than my previous "big" complaint of the franchise, regarding the lack of connection between Wolverine and Lady Deathstrike, and the lack of ANY character what so ever for Lady Deathstrike.

But the movie as a whole is a good movie to me, and so I deal with those changes, even if I don't like nor agree with them. But it still does bug me, just as much as it bugs me that Lady Deathstrike is a mutant who needs to be controlled in order to fight Wolverine, instead of being a woman so hellbent on revenge that she'd have her physical being altered to be able to destroy Wolverine. But do I let that ruin X2 for me? No. Because besides that drastic deviation from the source material of a character I am particularly fond of, the movie as a whole is excellent, an excellent adaptation of these characters I love so much.

I see X-Men: The Last Stand in the same light. Some errors? Yes. Even big ones. But on the whole, it's an excellent movie, and an excellent adaptation of these characters I love so much.

I just wasn't in the right frame of mind to appreciate that the first time that I saw the movie.

 

[gambitfire]

So what, are you trying to say that I purposefully was looking for trouble with this thread?

Are you saying that we can't start a positive thread about X3 without it meaning we're "looking for trouble"?

I wasn't looking for trouble. There's been so much negativity regarding X3 around here, and I wanted to provide a more positive opinion. This was something that's been on my mind for awhile, it's something that I feel X3 did better than X2. It's not to bash X2. It's to point out something that I feel X3 has an advantage in.

To say that I was looking for trouble is ridiculous, and only implies that any posting of a positive opinion is just looking for trouble...

Sorry it's just that when you set up the wasted motion you basically said X2 had a lot of it, and you know alot of ppl disagree with that. Wheather it was an attack or not it was an opinion and there is a thread already out there with that opinion.

I mean was the thread overall really necessary there was another positive review thread created recently, couldn't it just have been another topic under that.

So far the so called "negative Threads" arn't really negative but for other things like the Bryan Singers view, I won't fend for the Colossus ones though.

It's all im saying, sorry if i offended you.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Perhaps "wasted motion" isn't the proper term to use.

But I think my point is similar to all the Storm fans who say that Storm didn't have anything to do in X2...

What did we see the X-Men do in X2? A lot of flying the X-Jet. And then in Stryker's base, a lot of running around. Except for a couple instances, we don't really seeing them using their powers in combat. There is no combat.

The threat, is Xavier, sitting in a wheelchair, caught in a trance.

Wolverine fights Lady Deathstrike and then does a lot of running around. Storm, Jean, Nightcrawler, Magneto, Mystique, they all do a lot of walking around.

We see a brief confrontation between Jean and Cyclops. Magneto pulls the pins out of some grenades and realigns Cerebro. Storm creates a blizzard.

It's the same as people saying Storm didn't really do anything except fly the X-Jet. And complain that, despite her massive uses of power, all she actually does is have her eyes turn white.

I guess for me, it's the same thing with X2. The climax of X-Men: The Last Stand just totally butchers the climax of X2, in my opinion, because we're actually seeing these characters do something.

We don't see much conflict or confrontation through a lot of X2, but it's more than made up for with great character moments. But by the time they get to Stryker's base, there's not much character development left (except for Stryker's talks with Wolverine, which are rather nice), and the action is very subpar.

So despite X2 being a great movie, I feel a period where it tends to drag a bit (and perhaps another factor to that is the fact that I've seen X2 a bazillion times as well), where as X-Men: The Last Stand doesn't really have that.

So maybe "wasted motion" isn't the proper term, because I suppose, looking back at it, that there isn't really much that doesn't push the plot.

I watched the film again today on my drive back from Reno (PSP babay!!!), and I think I realized that's more or less that I'm talking about.

And bosef, I'll conceed one point to you:

You're right. The stakes in X2 aren't piddly ass. Watching it again, I realized the error in my thinking there. I should have known better, after how much I've watched the film.

The President is still waking up though.

But seeing the movie again, I think that's more or less what I was thinking of... was the just kind of standing around, not doing much, during the climax of the film.

And just before this gets misinterpreted, I am not saying it's BAD, or BORING, or anything. X2 is a great film. But I feel it's at it's best BEFORE they enter Stryker's base, and AFTER they leave, when the dam is about to burst, and the whole Jean sequence occurs. Meanwhile, I don't really feel that X-Men: The Last Stand has a period like that.

Doesn't make 1 film better than the other. I love both (and I think I like them equally). It's just my opinion of 1 advantage one of the 2 films has over the other.

 

[Theweepeople]

Well let's see...

Beast DID show concern regarding Leech's containment of the boy. But Worthington Labs followed all regulations, whatever those might have been. And I'm sure those regulations are more regarding experimentation with mutants, rather than detaining a young boy. And when you see Leech, it doesn't appear that he's being kept against his will. He's sitting in his room, playing video games, and appears to be enjoying himself. So either A. His family was okay with him being kept at the labs, or B. since it's Leech, who's a Morlock in the source material, he may very well not have a family, and this is actually the safest place for him.

You thought Leech was enjoying himself? I don't remember him smiling in any of the scenes in the film. Also, you forgot to add C. His family forced him to stay at labs against his will.

After Magneto's assault on Alcatraz, the labs are destroyed. So even with Leech, there won't be much cure making anymore. And now that they have Leech, they take him back to the mansion, where he can be safe, and be amongst people like himself... you know, the whole purpose of the school.

You are making this way to simple Nell. Just because the labs are destroyed does not mean the labs can't be rebuilt and leech can't be used again to manufacture the cure. Are you trying to convince us that all the technology that was used to make the cure was at Alcatraz. I guess if the U.S. was run by a bunch of morons than that would make sense. But, in reality it would make sense for the government to have their own special underground labs in case the labs at Al-catraz were destroyed.

Leech being allowed to stay with the X-Men does not make sense either because the outcome of what happened on Al-catraz did not get rid of the demand for the cure by mutants who wanted to get rid of their condition and what about all the other mutant terrorists in the US and the rest of the world that would be needed to be dealt with by using the cure.

I'll admit that having Beast go to the UN was the wrong conclussion, he should have stayed at the school, and helped Storm to restart it.

But it also shows that the President realizes the error of his ways. He turned the cure into a weapon because "those mutants were a real threat." but by seeing mutants actually fight and defend the humans on Alcatraz, the President learned that not all mutants were bad, and to make up for his error regarding the cure, he appointed Beast as the ambassador to the UN... an acceptance of mutants, that not all mutants are extreme terrorists like Magneto, and that perhaps through diplomacy, and tolerance, perhaps mutants and humans CAN get along, and you can try to diminish future "Magnetos" from rising and plotting attacks.

You are making way too many assumptions again and are trying to simply something that is very complex. After seeing the destruction caused by these mutants on Al-Catraz the president could have taken an opposite stance and ordered an increase in the production of the mutant cure. If he really made the decision that you are convinced he made the movie did a poor job of showing it.

Easy, the President is a mutant.

If you actually watch the scene, you'll see that he's waking up, he's regaining his composure. I've watched the scene a bazillion times, and I know what I saw. McKenna was recovering, not being effected.

This is downright silly Nell. I did not expect this from you.

The reason why they weren't explicitly stated is because 1. At the time, nobody knew what Magneto's next move might be and 2. Because they needed to stop Magneto then and there.

But it was pretty clear that Magneto's war would not stop at Alcatraz. That he would continue to wage his war against humans after he got ahold of the cure. But, it's 1 step at a time there buddy. It wasn't stated, because the plot entailed Magneto being defeated at Alcatraz.

Perhaps if he actually won his battle at Alcatraz, then the next movie could handle his next moves. But he was defeated, so whatever his next moves were didn't matter.

Here is where I completely agree with you Nell. Magneto's plan is so flawed in this film the only conclusion I can come to is his senility is setting in. No military general who knows the exact location of an enemy force would let his army undergo severe casualties when a bomb could obliterate the enemy. In Magneto's case he, Jean, or both of them could hover over the Al-catraz buildings at night and cause the buildings to crumble. No more leech. No brotherhood mutant casualties. On to Washington D.C. Of course this could cause more problems for the brotherhood which is why I thought capturing Leech and heading towards Washington with him would have made more sense.

The movie did exactly what it should have; explained that there would be severe consequences if Magneto was not stopped, but not introduce yet another story arc that would never even be touched upon.

The movie already suffered from two many story arcs in a 104 minute. I don't think another one could have made it much worse. At least another one could have given me a better idea about what the heck Magneto thinking.

 

[bosef982]

Perhaps "wasted motion" isn't the proper term to use.

But I think my point is similar to all the Storm fans who say that Storm didn't have anything to do in X2...

What did we see the X-Men do in X2? A lot of flying the X-Jet. And then in Stryker's base, a lot of running around. Except for a couple instances, we don't really seeing them using their powers in combat. There is no combat.

The threat, is Xavier, sitting in a wheelchair, caught in a trance.

Wolverine fights Lady Deathstrike and then does a lot of running around. Storm, Jean, Nightcrawler, Magneto, Mystique, they all do a lot of walking around.

We see a brief confrontation between Jean and Cyclops. Magneto pulls the pins out of some grenades and realigns Cerebro. Storm creates a blizzard.

It's the same as people saying Storm didn't really do anything except fly the X-Jet. And complain that, despite her massive uses of power, all she actually does is have her eyes turn white.

I guess for me, it's the same thing with X2. The climax of X-Men: The Last Stand just totally butchers the climax of X2, in my opinion, because we're actually seeing these characters do something.

We don't see much conflict or confrontation through a lot of X2, but it's more than made up for with great character moments. But by the time they get to Stryker's base, there's not much character development left (except for Stryker's talks with Wolverine, which are rather nice), and the action is very subpar.

So despite X2 being a great movie, I feel a period where it tends to drag a bit (and perhaps another factor to that is the fact that I've seen X2 a bazillion times as well), where as X-Men: The Last Stand doesn't really have that.

So maybe "wasted motion" isn't the proper term, because I suppose, looking back at it, that there isn't really much that doesn't push the plot.

I watched the film again today on my drive back from Reno (PSP babay!!!), and I think I realized that's more or less that I'm talking about.

And bosef, I'll conceed one point to you:

You're right. The stakes in X2 aren't piddly ass. Watching it again, I realized the error in my thinking there. I should have known better, after how much I've watched the film.

The President is still waking up though.

But seeing the movie again, I think that's more or less what I was thinking of... was the just kind of standing around, not doing much, during the climax of the film.

And just before this gets misinterpreted, I am not saying it's BAD, or BORING, or anything. X2 is a great film. But I feel it's at it's best BEFORE they enter Stryker's base, and AFTER they leave, when the dam is about to burst, and the whole Jean sequence occurs. Meanwhile, I don't really feel that X-Men: The Last Stand has a period like that.

Doesn't make 1 film better than the other. I love both (and I think I like them equally). It's just my opinion of 1 advantage one of the 2 films has over the other.

I've heard the idea of "The President is a mutant..." and I find that just plain ludicrous. There is NOTHING in this film that sets that up as an idea; the novelization presented his BODYGUARD as a mutant, but not him. So, that's not flying...and you still need to explain the guard curled up on the floor who is in pain, unless he's a mutant too.

So, again...The President is not waking up. Plus, the mutants had already been out of the Cerebro Effect for a substantial amount of time (Magneto had restarted Cerebro, Storm and Nightcrawler and Jean and Cyclops had reconvened before Cerebro, Logan had attacked and strung up Stryker, and Magneto had made it out to Stryker...). For the President to just be waking up would be silly. Ther'es not a lot of proof here to back what you're saying Nell, actually, there's little at all...

 

[Theweepeople]

Nell I don't want you or the other X3 lovers to leave. Without you guys I won't have anyone to debate.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Whatever. I know what I saw. Blinking a couple of times, and looking at the ceiling does not indicate pain. Not when we see EVERYONE ELSE dropping to the floor clutching their heads. And I could give a **** what the novelization says. The novelization is NOT the movie. Gambit is in the X3 novelization... I guess that means he was in the movie too, right?

As for the rest of it, I'm through arguing with you.

I'm not going to defend myself against you trying to "prove me wrong". The movie is to me what it is to me. And you're not going to convince me otherwise.

I'm tired of being backed up against the ropes by you and everyone else who didn't like the film.

I like the film. And I've explained why. I'm not going to sit here and argue every little ****ing detail of the movie, because you're so hell bent on proving me wrong, on proving that what I saw was inaccurate, and that your interpretation is right, and I need to follow it. Just like the X2 President, I know what I saw. I'm not going to let you question every little detail of my interpretation so you can try to prove me wrong. I'm sick of this ****.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Whatever. I know what I saw. Blinking a couple of times, and looking at the ceiling does not indicate pain. Not when we see EVERYONE ELSE dropping to the floor clutching their heads. And I could give a **** what the novelization says. The novelization is NOT the movie. Gambit is in the X3 novelization... I guess that means he was in the movie too, right?

As for the rest of it, I'm through arguing with you.

I'm not going to defend myself against you trying to "prove me wrong". The movie is to me what it is to me. And you're not going to convince me otherwise.

I'm tired of being backed up against the ropes by you and everyone else who didn't like the film.

I like the film. And I've explained why. I'm not going to sit here and argue every little ****ing detail of the movie, because you're so hell bent on proving me wrong, on proving that what I saw was inaccurate, and that your interpretation is right, and I need to follow it. Just like the X2 President, I know what I saw. I'm not going to let you question every little detail of my interpretation so you can try to prove me wrong. I'm sick of this ****.

Dude, calm down. It's not that big of a deal. Why get so defensive over someone asking a question? I do disagree with your view about the President being a mutant.

It's quite obvious he was being affected by Cerebro. However, some people react to pain differently than most. I can tell you that if I go to the doctor and have a needle inserted into my skin/vein, most people will scream, cry, wince, and sometimes look up at the ceiling blinking while trying not to think of the pain.

In MY opinion the President was simply reacting to the pain in a different fashion or maybe the actor playing the President was bad at reacting to pain, who knows. In the end it's clearly established that the President was affected by Cerebro.

 

[kg576094]

Isn't the entire bridge sequence in x3 a "wasted motion" or unnecessary action? Who would have thought that Magneto had to spend half a day to send that bridge across to Alcatraz Island? By the time Magneto reached Alcatraz Island, why didn't the military fire a few plastic bombs with the cure at the incoming threat or move Leech to a safer location like they do with every other movies

 

[Theweepeople]

Sure, no problem.

The first time I went in, I didn't go in with an open mind, so to speak.

1. I was pissed off at the notion of Cyclops dying.
2. From all of the promotional material (trailers, TV spots, etc...) and the discussions with Kinberg and Penn over on X-Verse, I was expecting a totally different movie. The promotional material made this film out to be a Return of the King style epic.

I was suspicious about everything Kinberg and Penn said which is why I knew there was no way this film was going to be on the level on Return of the King. However, I did not expect for so many things they talked about to be false.

3. The movie missed the heavy doses of character moments that Bryan Singer's X-Men and X2 contained, and also had a much faster pace that didn't allow things to breathe the way Singer's films did. I was caught off guard.

There was no excuse for all of this. In other trilogies the characters in the previous films evolve. Not the opposite(Cyclops, Storm, Xavier, Jean, Magneto, and Logan).

4. Despite not reading the initial AICN script review, I knew everything about the movie from my time spent on this forum for a year prior to the movie's release. So absolutley nothing about the movie surprised me the way it should have. I knew everything that was coming, when it was coming. Things that I would have highly enjoyed, such as the Danger Room, Sentinel, Moira McTaggert, and such, were all ruined because I knew they were coming.
5. Cyclops did get killed, and Rogue did get cured.

I didn't know all of these and I still thought the movie was terrible.

I ruined the film for myself, because of my time spent on this forum. If I never came to this forum, I guarantee that I would have loved this film upon first viewing. But I knew everything. All the good stuff to expect, I knew about. So when I saw it, I wasn't thrilled by it. It was "okay, knew this was coming, NEXT!" and I didn't give myself a chance to truly appreciate the film.

You are being way too hard on yourself. I knew everything that was going to take place in the Lord of the Rings films and that turned out to be my favorite trilogy of all time. I knew almost everything that was going to take place in Revenge of the Sith and it ended up being my favorite Star Wars film out of 1, 2, and 3.

Upon second viewing, and even further (I saw it 7 times total in theatres, a few times on bootleg waiting for the DVD, and a bunch of times now that I have the DVD), this movie continues to get better and better. Because now, I have all that hype from a year on this forum out of my head. And I can watch it with a much more open mind now, and looking back, I can appreciate these things more.

Nell, I thought you were vehemently against bootlegging because you losed a job as a result of it?

The lack of character development doesn't bother me too much, because I've had 2 movies of that already. I know who these characters are, and why I love them so much. I know why it means so much for Wolverine to fight for Jean (even though it should be Cyclops, but whatever). I know why it's such an impact for Jean to destroy Xavier. I know why Magneto is fighting his war. I know these characters from 2 movies already. And where character development was needed, I feel it was there. I got a sense of who Beast was. Did I learn everything about him? No, but we didn't need to. He's a supporting character, and we don't need to learn as much about him as we do for Wolverine, or Jean, or Xavier, or Magneto... characters who were all developed in the two previous movies. And we are told enough about Beast to know who he is and why he's fighting.

As I said before it does not make sense to continue a story without furthering the development of characters. The same standards that work in books should be applied to films.

Cyclops dying and Rogue being cured are extreme deviations from the source material, deviations that do bother me. And they are much worse than my previous "big" complaint of the franchise, regarding the lack of connection between Wolverine and Lady Deathstrike, and the lack of ANY character what so ever for Lady Deathstrike.

Since Singer was not allowed to make X3 and X4 we won't find out about the connection between Wolverine and Lady Deathstrike. I'm sure Brian would have explained it in one of those films.

But the movie as a whole is a good movie to me, and so I deal with those changes, even if I don't like nor agree with them. But it still does bug me, just as much as it bugs me that Lady Deathstrike is a mutant who needs to be controlled in order to fight Wolverine, instead of being a woman so hellbent on revenge that she'd have her physical being altered to be able to destroy Wolverine. But do I let that ruin X2 for me? No. Because besides that drastic deviation from the source material of a character I am particularly fond of, the movie as a whole is excellent, an excellent adaptation of these characters I love so much.

I can except deviations that serve a purpose. Many of the deviations in X3 served no purpose in pushing the film along(Cyclop's death and Rogue being cured are examples). Lady Deathstrike's purpose was to be Stryker's bodyguard, collect information on mutants, and capture mutants. She performed two of these objectives with effeciency and almost excelled at being a bodyguard but was killed by Wolverine.

I just wasn't in the right frame of mind to appreciate that the first time that I saw the movie.

By this logic the movies I mentioned above could have had the same effect on me but, they didn't.

 

[La_She-Beast]

Sure, no problem.

The first time I went in, I didn't go in with an open mind, so to speak.

1. I was pissed off at the notion of Cyclops dying.
2. From all of the promotional material (trailers, TV spots, etc...) and the discussions with Kinberg and Penn over on X-Verse, I was expecting a totally different movie. The promotional material made this film out to be a Return of the King style epic.
3. The movie missed the heavy doses of character moments that Bryan Singer's X-Men and X2 contained, and also had a much faster pace that didn't allow things to breathe the way Singer's films did. I was caught off guard.
4. Despite not reading the initial AICN script review, I knew everything about the movie from my time spent on this forum for a year prior to the movie's release. So absolutley nothing about the movie surprised me the way it should have. I knew everything that was coming, when it was coming. Things that I would have highly enjoyed, such as the Danger Room, Sentinel, Moira McTaggert, and such, were all ruined because I knew they were coming.
5. Cyclops did get killed, and Rogue did get cured.

I ruined the film for myself, because of my time spent on this forum. If I never came to this forum, I guarantee that I would have loved this film upon first viewing. But I knew everything. All the good stuff to expect, I knew about. So when I saw it, I wasn't thrilled by it. It was "okay, knew this was coming, NEXT!" and I didn't give myself a chance to truly appreciate the film.

Upon second viewing, and even further (I saw it 7 times total in theatres, a few times on bootleg waiting for the DVD, and a bunch of times now that I have the DVD), this movie continues to get better and better. Because now, I have all that hype from a year on this forum out of my head. And I can watch it with a much more open mind now, and looking back, I can appreciate these things more.

Are there things about the movie I dislike? Absolutley.

But there are things that I dislike about X2 also. But that is still an amazing film.

The lack of character development doesn't bother me too much, because I've had 2 movies of that already. I know who these characters are, and why I love them so much. I know why it means so much for Wolverine to fight for Jean (even though it should be Cyclops, but whatever). I know why it's such an impact for Jean to destroy Xavier. I know why Magneto is fighting his war. I know these characters from 2 movies already. And where character development was needed, I feel it was there. I got a sense of who Beast was. Did I learn everything about him? No, but we didn't need to. He's a supporting character, and we don't need to learn as much about him as we do for Wolverine, or Jean, or Xavier, or Magneto... characters who were all developed in the two previous movies. And we are told enough about Beast to know who he is and why he's fighting.

Cyclops dying and Rogue being cured are extreme deviations from the source material, deviations that do bother me. And they are much worse than my previous "big" complaint of the franchise, regarding the lack of connection between Wolverine and Lady Deathstrike, and the lack of ANY character what so ever for Lady Deathstrike.

But the movie as a whole is a good movie to me, and so I deal with those changes, even if I don't like nor agree with them. But it still does bug me, just as much as it bugs me that Lady Deathstrike is a mutant who needs to be controlled in order to fight Wolverine, instead of being a woman so hellbent on revenge that she'd have her physical being altered to be able to destroy Wolverine. But do I let that ruin X2 for me? No. Because besides that drastic deviation from the source material of a character I am particularly fond of, the movie as a whole is excellent, an excellent adaptation of these characters I love so much.

I see X-Men: The Last Stand in the same light. Some errors? Yes. Even big ones. But on the whole, it's an excellent movie, and an excellent adaptation of these characters I love so much.

I just wasn't in the right frame of mind to appreciate that the first time that I saw the movie.

Really Nell, like I told you before, I think you're having too much pity on the movie. Can I ask you... you liked the movie because we saw lotsa things from the comics... but as a whole (not as a CBM), you think it's an excellent movie too?
And those 'wasted motions' you named above for X2, were details that enriched the movie. In X3, the scenes are slapped, and stuck with superglue. They don't flow at all. All just checked in the list

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I was suspicious about everything Kinberg and Penn said which is why I knew there was no way this film was going to be on the level on Return of the King. However, I did not expect for so many things they talked about to be false.

Yea, we all got taken for a loop. I really should have known better, after the whole Gambit fiasco. But alas...

There was no excuse for all of this. In other trilogies the characters in the previous films evolve. Not the opposite(Cyclops, Storm, Xavier, Jean, Magneto, and Logan).

Would more character development have helped? Absolutley! However, I don't think character development was the priority of this film. But this time, we should know these characters already. And I also don't feel this movie was void of character development. It wasn't as dominating as Singer's films, but being the 3rd film, I don't think it needed to be.

I didn't know all of these and I still thought the movie was terrible.

I never even thought it was terrible. It wasn't what I expected it to be, and I let that sour me. But upon second viewing, I came to the conclussion that it was a good movie. And that conclussion has held everytime I've seen the movie since. My opinion of the movie has even grown to a point where I personally feel it's on par with X2. It excells in certain points, where X2 excells in others. They are both my favorite for different reasons. Perhaps an edge to X-Men: The Last Stand because it's the climax, and it's a bit more epic in scope. But there are moments in X2 that nothing in X-Men: The Last Stand can compare to. So it's hard.

You are being way too hard on yourself. I knew everything that was going to take place in the Lord of the Rings films and that turned out to be my favorite trilogy of all time. I knew almost everything that was going to take place in Revenge of the Sith and it ended up being my favorite Star Wars film out of 1, 2, and 3.

I guess different strokes for different folks?

And Lord of the Rings is just, in my opinion, the single greatest series of movies ever. NOTHING can compare. I love the X-Men, and I absolutley adore the trilogy, but god damn those Lord of the Rings movies are some of the most powerful movies ever.

Nell, I thought you were vehemently against bootlegging because you losed a job as a result of it?

I'm against downloading in place of buying CD's / DVD's. I'm not anti downloading period. I often use downloading as a measure of if I want to purchase a movie or not. I never download movies, X-Men: The Last Stand being the exception (after it was in theatres), because I didn't want to wait. I still purchased the DVD the day it came out (actually, the night before), and bought myself a 2nd copy for UMD.

As I said before it does not make sense to continue a story without furthering the development of characters. The same standards that work in books should be applied to films.

Then you and I have different standards in that department. I think they did what they needed to do. You don't.

Since Singer was not allowed to make X3 and X4 we won't find out about the connection between Wolverine and Lady Deathstrike. I'm sure Brian would have explained it in one of those films.

I don't know about that... Lady Deathstrike was dead.

It's not like Singer brought back Sabretooth and explained their connection. And Sabretooth is the trademark rival for Wolverine.

Lady Deathstrike was dead. When it comes to the secondary villians like that (not a main character like Magneto), I wouldn't want the movies to rehash villians anyways.

I can except deviations that serve a purpose. Many of the deviations in X3 served no purpose in pushing the film along(Cyclop's death and Rogue being cured are examples). Lady Deathstrike's purpose was to be Stryker's bodyguard, collect information on mutants, and capture mutants. She performed two of these objectives with effeciency and almost excelled at being a bodyguard but was killed by Wolverine.

Well, the death of Cyclops and the curing of Rogue were the wrong directions to take, plain and simple. But they did push the plot forward, as shotty as it may have been.

In the grand scheme of things, the movie as a whole works, and works well. So with that, I can deal with Cyclops dying and Rogue taking the cure. I don't like it. I don't agree with it. But I can deal.

By this logic the movies I mentioned above could have had the same effect on me but, they didn't.

Again, just different strokes for different folks.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Really Nell, like I told you before, I think you're having too much pity on the movie. Can I ask you... you liked the movie because we saw lotsa things from the comics... but as a whole (not as a CBM), you think it's an excellent movie too?
And those 'wasted motions' you named above for X2, were details that enriched the movie. In X3, the scenes are slapped, and stuck with superglue. They don't flow at all. All just checked in the list

Read my most recent post on the "wasted motion"

I think that was the wrong term to use.

And despite popular misconception, my idea of "wasted motion" isn't slower, character driven moments. Those are what power X2 and make it such a great movie for me.

It's when we're done with the character development, and delving into the climactic "final battle", and the threat is a guy in a wheelchair in a trance by some other guy in a wheelchair, and everyone is just running around trying to get to Cerebro to turn it off. Sure there's a couple things here or there; a Wolverine vs. Lady Deathstrike fight (which I don't think is all that great), Jean vs. Cyclops, and Magneto pulling pins out of guards grenades, and realligning Cerebro, but overall, the climax doesn't really have a lot going on except for one guy in a wheelchair making another guy in a wheelchair make everyone else in the world keel over in pain.

It's not bad, but X-Men: The Last Stand offers me a much better, and much more exciting climax than X2 does.

I think that X-Men: The Last Stand is a good movie, because of the previous 2 movies.

What I mean by that is that X-Men and X2 established these characters, to set up the payoff for this film.

If this film were the first film, and in charge of establishing these characters, then the method of character development would hinder this film.

But because it's the 3rd, where I don't think character development should be neglected, I don't believe it's any longer the priority. And I don't think character development was neglected. I think it was there when it needed to be.

Sure, some parts could have used some more (I.E. Phoenix), but the explanation was there, and worked. More would have helped.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Dude, calm down. It's not that big of a deal. Why get so defensive over someone asking a question? I do disagree with your view about the President being a mutant.

It's quite obvious he was being affected by Cerebro. However, some people react to pain differently than most. I can tell you that if I go to the doctor and have a needle inserted into my skin/vein, most people will scream, cry, wince, and sometimes look up at the ceiling blinking while trying not to think of the pain.

In MY opinion the President was simply reacting to the pain in a different fashion or maybe the actor playing the President was bad at reacting to pain, who knows. In the end it's clearly established that the President was affected by Cerebro.

Dude, you use to get mad because us X3 lovers didn't understand why the X3 bashers were upset with the film, because we didn't get why you didn't like it.

That's what I'm getting here.

I make a simple thread, explaining one thing that I think X3 did better than X2. There's a whole slew of negativity for X3 around here... I make one thread to put a little positive light on the film, and I get people coming around trying to prove me wrong, and show me that my opinion is wrong, that they are right, and try to counter every little point I make about what I think went right.

It's one thing to have debate with someone over a difference of opinion. But is it really neccesary to come into this thread, and try to PROVE me wrong?!

 

[Jennifer Walters]

I love X3, but it really did need some wasted motion to make it longer and add more depth.

 

[Seen]

That's so weird Nell that you said President McKenna was a mutant, because after X2 came out on DVD I saw it with a friend who hadn't seen it and the first thing he said during that bit was, "So the President's a mutant?".

I didn't realize it, or thought about it 'til then, but he and Nell have a good point. McKenna was certainly acting nonpain-like during his pain scene and perhaps he even is a mutant. If he was, I think it would've been a superb plot point to explore in Singer's X3 and I think he would've explored it -- a mutant president? That definitely makes things interesting.

 

[bosef982]

Yea, we all got taken for a loop. I really should have known better, after the whole Gambit fiasco. But alas...



Would more character development have helped? Absolutley! However, I don't think character development was the priority of this film. But this time, we should know these characters already. And I also don't feel this movie was void of character development. It wasn't as dominating as Singer's films, but being the 3rd film, I don't think it needed to be.



I never even thought it was terrible. It wasn't what I expected it to be, and I let that sour me. But upon second viewing, I came to the conclussion that it was a good movie. And that conclussion has held everytime I've seen the movie since. My opinion of the movie has even grown to a point where I personally feel it's on par with X2. It excells in certain points, where X2 excells in others. They are both my favorite for different reasons. Perhaps an edge to X-Men: The Last Stand because it's the climax, and it's a bit more epic in scope. But there are moments in X2 that nothing in X-Men: The Last Stand can compare to. So it's hard.



I guess different strokes for different folks?

And Lord of the Rings is just, in my opinion, the single greatest series of movies ever. NOTHING can compare. I love the X-Men, and I absolutley adore the trilogy, but god damn those Lord of the Rings movies are some of the most powerful movies ever.



I'm against downloading in place of buying CD's / DVD's. I'm not anti downloading period. I often use downloading as a measure of if I want to purchase a movie or not. I never download movies, X-Men: The Last Stand being the exception (after it was in theatres), because I didn't want to wait. I still purchased the DVD the day it came out (actually, the night before), and bought myself a 2nd copy for UMD.



Then you and I have different standards in that department. I think they did what they needed to do. You don't.



I don't know about that... Lady Deathstrike was dead.

It's not like Singer brought back Sabretooth and explained their connection. And Sabretooth is the trademark rival for Wolverine.

Lady Deathstrike was dead. When it comes to the secondary villians like that (not a main character like Magneto), I wouldn't want the movies to rehash villians anyways.



Well, the death of Cyclops and the curing of Rogue were the wrong directions to take, plain and simple. But they did push the plot forward, as shotty as it may have been.

In the grand scheme of things, the movie as a whole works, and works well. So with that, I can deal with Cyclops dying and Rogue taking the cure. I don't like it. I don't agree with it. But I can deal.



Again, just different strokes for different folks.

Nell, look at ANY book on film, ANY book on writing film, ANY book on anything doing with anything involving story and it says, without dispute, conjecture, or qualification that a STORY MUST SHOW A PROTAGONIST CHANGING AND DEVELOPING.

You have freely admitted that in X3 character development was not a priority. That says it all right there. No amount of action, comic homages, or clever FX is going to change the fact that we are seeing no character development, or better yet -- experiencing character development.

If this were a James Bond film, I'd be a bit more forgiving. But even those showcase a degree of character development (OHMSS, LTK, LD, TND, TWINE). And, as Die Another Day showed -- and their recent reboot shows -- audiences are become wearier of films -- action or not -- that do not have character development and moving characters.

A film without any character development is a bad movie. It may be a fun film, but it is a bad film as judge by its medium.

X3 doesn't simply get to waive the right to character development because two movies came before it. I've seen many trilogies and I can't really think of one that didn't show MORe and MORE character development as the sequels came out. So, just because Ratner "didn't want to" doesn't mean it's okay to.

What's funny is this, and this isn't neccessarily you: X-fans like X-Maniac for example, will come out and say that X1 and X2 are horrible films and betrayed the X-legacy and had horrible character portrayls of the X-Men. Then, when someone blasts X3 about character development, they'll state that we alreayd got to know them in X1 and X2, thus its not needed, all the while supporting characters that two premises earlier they were saying were ill-portrayed and horrible.

It. Never. Makes. Sense.

It's because people who support X3 so vehemently do so while accepting the flaws that eventually showcase the contridictoins of their self-denial.

 

[bosef982]

It's when we're done with the character development, and delving into the climactic "final battle", and the threat is a guy in a wheelchair in a trance by some other guy in a wheelchair, and everyone is just running around trying to get to Cerebro to turn it off. Sure there's a couple things here or there; a Wolverine vs. Lady Deathstrike fight (which I don't think is all that great), Jean vs. Cyclops, and Magneto pulling pins out of guards grenades, and realligning Cerebro, but overall, the climax doesn't really have a lot going on except for one guy in a wheelchair making another guy in a wheelchair make everyone else in the world keel over in pain.

It's not bad, but X-Men: The Last Stand offers me a much better, and much more exciting climax than X2 does.

I think that X-Men: The Last Stand is a good movie, because of the previous 2 movies.

What I mean by that is that X-Men and X2 established these characters, to set up the payoff for this film.

If this film were the first film, and in charge of establishing these characters, then the method of character development would hinder this film.

But because it's the 3rd, where I don't think character development should be neglected, I don't believe it's any longer the priority. And I don't think character development was neglected. I think it was there when it needed to be.

Sure, some parts could have used some more (I.E. Phoenix), but the explanation was there, and worked. More would have helped.

X3, literaly Nell, just had more explosions. There is nothing suspensful at all about the ending, that's for sure. And it's not all that amazingly concieved.

I love though your woeful understating of X2's climax which, for someone who insists that they dont' use X2 to make X3 better, is sort of ironic. The X-Men were not "running around" trying to save a man in a wheelchair (becuase i guess people in wheelchairs aren't interesting).

And I love ..." except for one guy making another guy cause everyone else in the world to kneel over in pain." LOL!!! Are you ****ing serious? Yes, it's so pitiful and boring to watch someone killing the entire world....come on. This is just getting ridiculous. You want to oversimplfy to scavenge for some point, fine Nell, do it. But between your President Mutant McKenna and "X2's climax is just a bunch of people running around with a guy in a wheelchair killing the world and thus is boring" you've lost pretty much all of my respect.

And about 3rd act character development, are you kidding? Didn't you say somewhere else that you're a writer? Apparently, not a good one. So, in the third act character development is no longer a priority?????

Dude, you need to go take a class or read a book. The 3rd Act is the most crucial point for character development. It's is the "climax" that externally represents the resolution of the struggle occuring within the main characters.

In Spider-Man 2, the 3rd Act climax occurs and showcases Peter using his new knowledge of responsiblity to talk Otto Octavious out of the tentacles control. In Spider-man 1, Spider-Man during the climax chooses the path of both his lives -- the girl or the children. He gets both, effectively finding a balance between the two. These are all action beats, yes, but they are intense character moments that are brought about by the development of the characters.

In Batman Begins, the 3rd Act begins at Wayne's birthday party. We get massive development as he decides to put the suit back on, decides to save Gotham, decides to out himself to Rachel and shows he's learned what she was saying, and then allows Ra's to die without killing him himself.

In Superman Returns, the 3rd Act is just rife with character development. Superman returns to save Richard and then endorses his relationship by Lois by "pointing them in the right direction." Lois finally forgives Superman and pushes Richard to go back, and Richard realizing how she really feels, does so and resigns to the fact that she is still in love. Superman, hurt and injured, realizes that he has a duty and must go back, has to leave Lois who is not of his life, but does not forget to say "Goodbye, Lois" this time -- a great character beat. These are all in the 3rd act.

In X1, Logan accepts that he must join with the X-MEn and, in a major character moment, the selfish loner sacrifices his life to save Rogue.

In X2, Logan again during the 3rd act, tempted with leaving Stryker and findin the answers he's been looking for forever, decides to go back and save the X-Men. Jean finally decides to overcome the fear of her powers and use them in an amazing display. Pyro finally shows his true colors and decides he's had enough. Rogue steps up to plate. All in the 3rd Act.

If you're a writer and believe that character development is no longer a priority in the 3rd act, I'd hate to read your work. Seriously. The 3rd act is the most crucial aspect to any character arch. WHen the character arc ends the movie ends, thus the 3rd act must be the place of resolution, where the decisions and desires the character has had and purused the entire film are eventually resolved for better or for worse.

The third act is not important for character development....Good God, please. I just...this is just beyond me at this point. The fastousness is just beyond me.

 

[gambitfire]

poor Nell his thread go hijacked.

Should of known better than too tamper with opinion and expression when it comes between X2 and X3.

sorry.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

You're right bosef, because there is absolutley no character development at all in X-Men: The Last Stand. We see no character development whatsoever in that 3rd act.

We don't see Wolverine realizing that this isn't a game anymore. We don't see him finally settling down and actually becoming part of a family. We don't see him realizing that he can't do this on his own, and he needs to step up and actually take a stand for something.

We don't see Iceman stepping up, and becoming a member of the X-Men, and fighting for the dream of Xavier and Scott Summers. We don't see Iceman, Kitty Pryde, and Colossus overcoming their fears, and fighting for something they believe in.

You're right, bosef, this movie has absolutley no character development what so ever. Geez, I am so blind. What was I thinking? I am wrong. You've proven your ****ing point. X3 is horrible. X-Men and X2 are absolutley flawless. Bryan Singer can do no wrong. Superman is superior to X3. There is absolutley nothing boring about X2. I am a horrible writer. Thank you, bosef, thank you for showing me the light.

 

[bosef982]

You're right bosef, because there is absolutley no character development at all in X-Men: The Last Stand. We see no character development whatsoever in that 3rd act.

We don't see Wolverine realizing that this isn't a game anymore. We don't see him finally settling down and actually becoming part of a family. We don't see him realizing that he can't do this on his own, and he needs to step up and actually take a stand for something.

We don't see Iceman stepping up, and becoming a member of the X-Men, and fighting for the dream of Xavier and Scott Summers. We don't see Iceman, Kitty Pryde, and Colossus overcoming their fears, and fighting for something they believe in.

You're right, bosef, this movie has absolutley no character development what so ever. Geez, I am so blind. What was I thinking? I am wrong. You've proven your ****ing point. X3 is horrible. X-Men and X2 are absolutley flawless. Bryan Singer can do no wrong. Superman is superior to X3. There is absolutley nothing boring about X2. I am a horrible writer. Thank you, bosef, thank you for showing me the light.

Um...Bobby, Colossus, or Kitty ever DOUBTING their roles or their powers is never really touched upon in X3 -- especially not Colossus. So, there is no development there.

Logan, yes, does step up for a few moments. So we have some character development there, although it completely goes against the grain of the previous films.

That's about it.

Never said Singer did anyt wrong.

Also note, I wasn't saying X3's climax had any. I just made the point that the 3rd act is the most critical point for character development.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Um...Bobby, Colossus, or Kitty ever DOUBTING their roles or their powers is never really touched upon in X3 -- especially not Colossus. So, there is no development there.

Logan, yes, does step up for a few moments. So we have some character development there, although it completely goes against the grain of the previous films.

That's about it.

Never said Singer did anyt wrong.

Also note, I wasn't saying X3's climax had any. I just made the point that the 3rd act is the most critical point for character development.

Actually, I like to point out that the President being a mutant is really wrong too. It's a brief shot but you also notice his hair turning grey during the attack by Dark Cerebro.

Character development is important with every film. Imagine if Lord of the Rings had no development? Every film had characters being developed, going through different conflicts, and ultimately either accepting their fate or standing up to do what is right for the good of the world.

X3 didn't have that. Those moments were too rushed in my opinion and weren't allowed to have an impact. In the end all it comes down to is a matter of opinion. Some love X3 and some hate it, some like it and some dislike, some don't care either way about the content because it's the X-Men and as long as they're getting an X-Men film, that's the only thing that's important to some people you know?

But to Nell's credit, he does agree that Rogue and Cyclops were screwed over development.

X3 to me is the Terminator 3 of the trilogy. It's not horrible and it's not the worst film ever made, but due to the potential it could've been so much better than it was.

 

[TKing]

X3 to me is the Terminator 3 of the trilogy. It's not horrible and it's not the worst film ever made, but due to the potential it could've been so much better than it was.

I think that's the perfect way to end this incessant debating.