"Wasted Motion"

[The Guard]

No! Don't end the debate! Back with more soon.

 

[chaseter]

How many of you are sports fans?

How many of you are familiar with the term "wasted motion"?

Well, to me, I think this is one of the things that I enjoy about X-Men: The Last Stand over X2... it doesn't have any "wasted motion".

What I mean by this is that, in X-Men: The Last Stand, every scene counts. In X2, I feel there are some scenes that are just... not as neccesary.

Example: Nightcrawler. He has a great set up (White House attack), and a great character establishment (his talk to Storm and Jean at the church), and then except for a talk about faith to Storm in the X-Jet, really does nothing and is just there.

X-Men: The Last Stand doesn't have any scenes like that, in my opinion.

It doesn't neccesarily make X-Men: The Last Stand the better film. I don't know which of the 2 is my favorite (all I know is that my favorite of the trilogy is NOT X-Men...). Maybe they are tied... they both offer something to make them stand out from the other. X-Men: The Last Stand has awesome, amazing action that I love, as a superhero and comic book fan. X2 has some amazing character moments that really define these characters, and make them something truly special. So it's hard for me to pick a favorite between these 2.

But the "wasted motion" thing is something I like about X-Men: The Last Stand over X2. I'll probably watch X2 sometime over this weekend, and I can give better examples of just what I mean by that.

I sometimes agree with you and you do bring up a lot of good points. But I couldn't disagree with you more here. Movies aren't really like sports but I can make my own comparison. You have to research each player in a team, give them time to practice, build up to a glorious moment and then play your heart out for those few moments. A movie has to build up its characters, go in depth for each one, build up to one huge moment, and then let all stops out. If X3 were a sport's team, the starters would be tired from going non stop for the first half and then play like crap the second half.

 

[X-Maniac]

That's about it. Also note, I wasn't saying X3's climax had any. I just made the point that the 3rd act is the most critical point for character development.

The third act of X3 (based on the Three Act Structure) does of course have character development. And for a movie franchise that's always had so many characters to juggle, it had a lot.

1) Wolverine - In the DR scene at the beginning, Storm yells at him that 'We work as a team' and he remembers this (and repeats it) when they work together to take out Magneto. The stubborn maverick loner who won't play by the rules is willing to co-operate and work alongside his team-mates. It shows he has finally accepted his place at the school, and his responsibilities to others and to the students. In killing Jean, he is also willing to do something terrible to save everyone and to save her.

2) Iceman - in the deleted scene before they board the X-jet for the Third Act climax, we hear him state that they aren't children any more, that they are prepared to fight for Xavier's dream. Once at Alcatraz, he is willing to do just that, and in taking on Pyro and fully icing up for the first time (at least the first we've seen) he shows his character growth, maturity and more advanced power control and in his line to Pyro how much he has learned by staying at the school. He has grown up.

3) Pyro - his turning point in this climax is a lesson learned from Iceman - arrogance and bitterness and anger don't necessarily succeed, and leaving the school hasn't necessarily done him any good, it's just allowed his ego to flourish (as we saw in his swaggering at the camp about being prepared to kill Xavier). For him, a lesson in humility.

4) Storm - in the DR sequence, Wolverine is keen to flaunt his more aggressive approach ('Sometimes a good offence is the best defence') and his approach works better than Storm having the X-Men running around among the fires and hiding behind the burning cars. When the X-Men are in a virtually identical, non-holographic setting on Alcatraz (fires, burning cars, hiding behind them), Storm repeats back to Logan what he said to her about a good offence. She has realised/remembered that sometimes a daring direct attack is needed to strike right at the heart of the conflict.

5) Magneto - He says 'What have i done?' when he finally realises that Charles Xavier was right all along in trying to contain the power of the Phoenix. Magneto scrambles away over the wreckage as Dark Phoenix pours out her power in waves of destruction that seem unstoppable.

6) Phoenix - Jean's development is in the nature of sacrifice, redemption, the choice to allow herself to die, to find peace.

7) Angel - he is able to save and forgive his father; the father he rejected when he rejected the cure.

8) Beast - He does what is necessary to help stop the conflict, and (ultimately) is even prepared to use the cure to do so. The look of disgust on his face as he flings the empty cure cartridges to the ground after stabbing them into Magneto shows how he abhors the idea of the cure being used forcibly as a weapon (which he had stated earlier to the president) and yet he is forced to do just that, to take drastic measures that are against his beliefs in mutant rights, in the name of the greater good. And through what he does, as part of that teamwork effort, the terrorist Magneto is stopped and the world sees that mutants are not all bad, and a climate of greater acceptance rises again, leading to his UN appointment. We hear Dr Rao say earlier that his political beliefs (in mutant rights) are at odds with his personal issues (in not being entirely happy with his appearance, and in being somewhat tempted by the idea of the cure after seeing Leech) - in this third act he has to go against his political beliefs to use the cure as a weapon, and he rejects his 'personal issues' (being curious about the cure) when he flings down those cure cartridges.

At least, that's how I see it, based on memory. Others are free to add their contribution or debate mine as i may have missed or even misinterpreted things...

 

[The Guard]

There's no point in repeating the points Nell made about Magneto's objectives at the end of X3, and the lack of any "greater" scheme for Magneto. He's also spot on about the threat Phoenix poses.

I will say that I do think X3 has more character development than people are willling to give it credit for. Wolverine, Storm, Xavier, Bobby, Rogue and Magneto all undergo development and conflicts from what they were in X2. May not be the conflict and development people WANTED to see, but it's there. And Beast clearly has some interpersonal conflict.

 

[gambitfire]

IMO no it doesn't.
Not because im not "willing to give it credit" because i didn't see it. Plain and simple.

*looks around*

*walks away from thread*

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

IMO no it doesn't.
Not because im not "willing to give it credit" because i didn't see it. Plain and simple.

*looks around*

*walks away from thread*

You didn't see it because it wasn't there the way that it was in Singer's films.

I don't deny that the film was limited in character development. But some people seem to argue that it had none. Well, it did have good character development. It had some pretty good character moments. What it didn't have was enough of them.

A perfect example is when Beast meets Leech. That is very much a character moment. Very well done in my opinion.

What they didn't do was really give it payoff. Yes, we hear him telling Storm "Not all of us can fit in so easily. You don't shed on the furniture.". We see his reaction to the notion of him not being a physically obvious mutant when he sees Leech. So we get a sense of Beast having mixed feelings about his mutation.

What we don't get is a payoff. Sure, he fights alongside the X-Men in the final battle. So we know that he believes in (and is willing to fight for) Xavier's dream. He's conflicted because he is proud to be a mutant, but at the same time, he's an outcast due to the obvious nature of his mutation.

But we don't get that final sense of closure. He takes a stand against Magneto, he's not neccesarily taking a stand against the cure. We don't see him actually coming to terms with his mutation, or rejecting his mutation.

There in lies the problem with the character development in X-Men: The Last Stand. It's there, but it doesn't always go as in depth as it should. We are told of Jean's struggle with the Phoenix... we see a couple examples of it, but they could have definatley benefitted to show us more. We are told of Beast's conflict over his mutation... we are shown his conflict... but we don't see him come to terms one way or another.

People get the notion that because I don't think it was this film's job to develop the characters, that I don't want character development. I do. I love X-Men and X2 because of their character moments.

I feel that being the 3rd film of the trilogy, we should already know these characters, they should have already been developed for us. I never said (nor do I think) that character development should stop. But it is my belief that by the 3rd film in a trilogy, it's time for the payoff of the previous character development.

Hence my opinion that this movie did enough character development. It did what it needed to do. It did "just enough".

Now could it have used more? Absolutley. More character development would have only benefitted this film. And if it were me writing this film, it would have had more character development.

But at the same time, I am at a point where I know who these characters are by this point, so I don't need to be shown why I need to feel for these characters. I already know. I've seen X-Men and X2.

I see the 3rd act, or the 3rd part of a trilogy, to be the moment of payoff for these characters. Not so much moments of character development, but moments of payoff, that give the earlier character development it's meaning and purpose.

Back to the original point about "Wasted Motion", it has nothing to do with the fact that X2 was heavy on character moments. That was NOT the wasted motion. That was the foundation that helped to build an excellent movie.

The "Wasted Motion" is the moment in the 3rd act, when it's time for this payoff, that felt a bit lackluster. No where did I say it was a bad 3rd act. No where did I say it lacked payoff. I did say that it lacked stakes... well that is a remark that I take back, because I was simply wrong on that point. X2 definatley did not lack stakes, and this is not sarcastic or condescending in any form; I apologize for that absurd remark about X2 not having high stakes.

Merely, that X-Men: The Last Stand had a better climax. A more exciting climax. In the part of the movie that was supposed to be the exciting climax, I felt that X2 didn't deliver as highly as it could have. Hence the "wasted motion" remark, a term that was possibly not the right term to use. And one that has been HIGHLY misunderstood.

It merely means that in my opinion, X-Men: The Last Stand delivered a better climax than X2. It doesn't mean one movie was better than the other. It doesn't mean that X2's character moments made it boring (which is far from my opinion). It means that X-Men: The Last Stand has an advantage in 1 particular category over X2.

 

[bosef982]

You didn't see it because it wasn't there the way that it was in Singer's films.

I don't deny that the film was limited in character development. But some people seem to argue that it had none. Well, it did have good character development. It had some pretty good character moments. What it didn't have was enough of them.

A perfect example is when Beast meets Leech. That is very much a character moment. Very well done in my opinion.

What they didn't do was really give it payoff. Yes, we hear him telling Storm "Not all of us can fit in so easily. You don't shed on the furniture.". We see his reaction to the notion of him not being a physically obvious mutant when he sees Leech. So we get a sense of Beast having mixed feelings about his mutation.

What we don't get is a payoff. Sure, he fights alongside the X-Men in the final battle. So we know that he believes in (and is willing to fight for) Xavier's dream. He's conflicted because he is proud to be a mutant, but at the same time, he's an outcast due to the obvious nature of his mutation.

But we don't get that final sense of closure. He takes a stand against Magneto, he's not neccesarily taking a stand against the cure. We don't see him actually coming to terms with his mutation, or rejecting his mutation.

There in lies the problem with the character development in X-Men: The Last Stand. It's there, but it doesn't always go as in depth as it should. We are told of Jean's struggle with the Phoenix... we see a couple examples of it, but they could have definatley benefitted to show us more. We are told of Beast's conflict over his mutation... we are shown his conflict... but we don't see him come to terms one way or another.

People get the notion that because I don't think it was this film's job to develop the characters, that I don't want character development. I do. I love X-Men and X2 because of their character moments.

I feel that being the 3rd film of the trilogy, we should already know these characters, they should have already been developed for us. I never said (nor do I think) that character development should stop. But it is my belief that by the 3rd film in a trilogy, it's time for the payoff of the previous character development.

Hence my opinion that this movie did enough character development. It did what it needed to do. It did "just enough".

Now could it have used more? Absolutley. More character development would have only benefitted this film. And if it were me writing this film, it would have had more character development.

But at the same time, I am at a point where I know who these characters are by this point, so I don't need to be shown why I need to feel for these characters. I already know. I've seen X-Men and X2.

I see the 3rd act, or the 3rd part of a trilogy, to be the moment of payoff for these characters. Not so much moments of character development, but moments of payoff, that give the earlier character development it's meaning and purpose.

Back to the original point about "Wasted Motion", it has nothing to do with the fact that X2 was heavy on character moments. That was NOT the wasted motion. That was the foundation that helped to build an excellent movie.

The "Wasted Motion" is the moment in the 3rd act, when it's time for this payoff, that felt a bit lackluster. No where did I say it was a bad 3rd act. No where did I say it lacked payoff. I did say that it lacked stakes... well that is a remark that I take back, because I was simply wrong on that point. X2 definatley did not lack stakes, and this is not sarcastic or condescending in any form; I apologize for that absurd remark about X2 not having high stakes.

Merely, that X-Men: The Last Stand had a better climax. A more exciting climax. In the part of the movie that was supposed to be the exciting climax, I felt that X2 didn't deliver as highly as it could have. Hence the "wasted motion" remark, a term that was possibly not the right term to use. And one that has been HIGHLY misunderstood.

It merely means that in my opinion, X-Men: The Last Stand delivered a better climax than X2. It doesn't mean one movie was better than the other. It doesn't mean that X2's character moments made it boring (which is far from my opinion). It means that X-Men: The Last Stand has an advantage in 1 particular category over X2.

I'm sorry for ****ing your thread up, Nell.

 

[Halcohol]

I get what you're thinking now, Nell. The Alcatraz sequence, on its own, is far superior to the Alkali Lake sequence in X2. FAR SUPERIOR. I totally agree 100%.

X2 was still finishing up the Logan/Stryker story which was the main plot first and foremost. It took its sweet time in focusing in on Wolverine's development in its last half and left no payoff to basically anybody except Logan and Jean. That was its problem, that it focused on those two characters so completely that it suffered in action and [handquotes] wow [/handquotes] factor. The menace seemed so intangible, Prof. X hooked up to Cerebro. It wasn't quite as intimidating as an army of mutants and Phoenix destroying an island.

The Last Stand didn't even have as much set up emotionally in the film. It was far too rushed, too concerned with getting people where they needed to be to deliver one line. Yeah, it had a really awesome climax, but it was so shallow, so transparent. There wasn't enough meaning behind it.

If this movie had been a combination of X2 with what we got, it would have been 10x the film.

 

[Seen]

I'm still waiting for X-Men 4, which combines the story and characterization of the first two but with the action of the third.

 

[Halcohol]

I'm still waiting for X-Men 4, which combines the story and characterization of the first two but with the action of the third.

Better get comfortable.

 

[PowersOfMind]

I'm still waiting for X-Men 4, which combines the story and characterization of the first two but with the action of the third.

That would be so nice. I still think that if Ratner and Singer got together they could make a banging Xmen movie.

 

[britrogue]

TLS has plenty of wasted motion imo.
Personally, I think the Danger Room scene was pointless and pants. Angel and Colossus were total wasted motion. As was Callisto.

 

[The Guard]

The Danger Room sequence had several reasons for existing. Hardly pointless.

 

[Celestio]

TLS has plenty of wasted motion imo.
Personally, I think the Danger Room scene was pointless and pants. Angel and Colossus were total wasted motion. As was Callisto.

The whole point of the Danger Room scene was to show that the X-Men had been training for the battle. Hence Iceman at the end (well, in the cut scene) saying "We've trained for this."

If they hadn't included it, people would be wondering why the hell Iceman, Kitty and Colossus were going to this big final battle when they were only kids in the previous movies.

And I don't see how Callisto was pointless. Without her, there wouldn't have been a good reason for Magneto finding Mystique, Jean and Leech. She also had 2 fight sequences - hardly what I would call a waste.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

The whole point of the Danger Room scene was to show that the X-Men had been training for the battle. Hence Iceman at the end (well, in the cut scene) saying "We've trained for this."

If they hadn't included it, people would be wondering why the hell Iceman, Kitty and Colossus were going to this big final battle when they were only kids in the previous movies.

And I don't see how Callisto was pointless. Without her, there wouldn't have been a good reason for Magneto finding Mystique, Jean and Leech. She also had 2 fight sequences - hardly what I would call a waste.

Agreed.

The Danger Room also set up a couple plot points:

1. Wolverine's lack of team play (and the payoff later when he does finally become a team player in the final battle)

2. The friendship between Iceman and Kitty Pryde that Rogue became jealous of (and was her reason for taking the cure)

3. The Fastball Special, which was later paid off in the final battle

4. To show that Cyclops had become irresponsible since the loss of Jean, and was no longer an effective leader

5. Reintroduce these characters and their powers, since it's been 3 years since the previous movie

And also, as you stated, to establish the younger members (Iceman, Rogue, Colossus, and Kitty Pryde) as members of the team. Iceman and Rogue were shown at the end of X2 as having joined the team, this was payoff to that. Establishing Colossus and Kitty Pryde as X-Men was payoff to Xavier's line to the President "Let's just say, I know a little girl who can walk through walls." That line blatantly explained that Kitty Pryde was doing work for Xavier and the X-Men, this gives that line payoff by actually having her with the team. Having Colossus with the team gives payoff to his cameo in X2, and all the courage he showed during the mansion raid by helping the children escape. It also gives payoff to his line to Wolverine "I can help you."

The Danger Room sequence was hardly pointless.

 

[bosef982]

I apologize and no one says anything. You can't win on these boards.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I'm sorry for ****ing your thread up, Nell.

Let's just forget about it, and move on. We've both said some things that were possibly not the best way to handle things.

 

[britrogue]

And I don't see how Callisto was pointless. Without her, there wouldn't have been a good reason for Magneto finding Mystique, Jean and Leech. She also had 2 fight sequences - hardly what I would call a waste.

But Psylocke could have done that. And SHOULD have done that.

 

[Celestio]

But Psylocke could have done that. And SHOULD have done that.

That's irrelevant. Callisto did it in the movie so therefore she wasn't a wasted character.

 

[Fried Gold]

Example: Nightcrawler. He has a great set up (White House attack), and a great character establishment (his talk to Storm and Jean at the church), and then except for a talk about faith to Storm in the X-Jet, really does nothing and is just there.

This generally referred to as 'character development', an integral aspect of any critical and commercially successful movie venture.

X-Men: The Last Stand doesn't have any scenes like that, in my opinion.

Which is why the movie isn't as good.

 

[TKing]

How anyone can say the Danger Room sequencer is pointless is beyond me? People wanted more action in X3 than the limited fight scenes we saw in X1 and X2, and that's what we got, and still people are complaining?

 

[TKing]

Which is why the movie isn't as good.

But then X2 didn't have as much action, so it some aspects X3 makes up for that.

 

[bosef982]

But then X2 didn't have as much action, so it some aspects X3 makes up for that.

I don't get this. From a objective standpoint, X3 DOES NOT have more action than X2.

X2

White House Scene = Danger Room
Kids at Muesum = Mystique in custody
Magneto Escapes = Magneto rescuing Mystique
Mansion Scene/Prison = Angel Escapes
At Bobby's House = At Jean's House
Aerial Dogfight = Logan's Fight in Woods
Attack on Stryker's Base = Attack on Alcatraz

X2 and X3 literally have nearly, if not exactly, the same amount of action. Now, who's action is better is a subject of endless debates. I personally of course feel X2's is FAR FAR FAR superior and seamless and less contrived, and more organized and logical, than X3's.

But in terms of X3 having more "action," that's incorrect. Now, was it more "action-packed" (alluding to having a ratio of more action), yes. This is because it was much shorter than X2 -- but this is something that nearly EVERYONE agrees was a bad thing. Had X3 been a tad longer, to expand on character and plot...you'd almost have the same ratio of action to film that X2 had.

 

[Celestio]

I wouldn't count the kids at the museum as action but that's just me.

Personally I don't think more action is the right word. Better action would be more suited, IMO.

 

[bosef982]

I wouldn't count the kids at the museum as action but that's just me.

Personally I don't think more action is the right word. Better action would be more suited, IMO.

Well, in terms of action, the level of action in Mystique's scene is about the same amount of action we get with Pyro lighting up the kid and Bobby freezing the kid. I don't neccessarily think Angel Escaping competes with the prolonged Mansion Scene, but, I just was doing by count.