World Webbing formula

[spidey44]

polyvinyl alcohol has a carbon backbone and oxygen to bond with the hydrogen. I think your polyvinyl alcohol and graphene formula will work.

 

[White_widow]

hey guys.., I just had an idea. We're all using CO2 as the propellant right?

(I mean it's easy to access, cheap, and almost all pressure equipment is made for it; so I expect the answer is yes.)

Why don't we find a strong adhesive that cures when, and only when it's cold? For my shooter, I can kind of use any adhesive because there are tons of adhesives that crosslink and crystallize in heat.

The reason. Let's assume that you want to use your web line as a more safety thing. You fire it with CO2 or another gas that gets REALLY cold. The adhesive sticks, and when it warms up, it becomes a liquid. Assuming that we use an organic strong polymer or a gel, the cold would harden the gel, making it fast hardening. Then, so long as it's non-toxic it doesn't hurt the environment.

If we were to do that, we could by-pass shear thinning and just make a very strong gel. Gels tend to be elastomeric anyway, have moderate viscosity rates, and easily expandable.

Final thought, the only problem with a formula like that would be that the inside of the shooter had to be warmed so that it only congeals when cold.

 

[White_widow]

polyvinyl alcohol has a carbon backbone and oxygen to bond with the hydrogen. I think your polyvinyl alcohol and graphene formula will work.

It might if you can cross-link the material in a VERY uniform manner. The reason I thought that might work is because of a science experiment that combined polyvinyl alcohol with nano-clay bricks created a plastic harder than steel, but there had to be a uniform mixture. The graphene would have to be chemically modified to be easily emulsifide in PVA. Well, that or water, which would be the plasticizer. The issue with that is that it still requires a glue that is compatible with the formula. I'm worried that cyanoacrylate is too brittle and will destroy any hydroxide bonds, which are key for a couple of the properties.

 

[spidey44]

A cold activated adhesive sounds cool, but most adhesives start to weaken in cold temperatures.

 

[White_widow]

I think that's the answer guys. To me at least, that is the only logical explanation as to why the web dissolves in two hours. If the webbing material is a bizarre aerogel, it would explain why it has all of it's properties, so long as it gains adhesion while cold and expands like water. Maybe it's a gel that expands to be an aerogel when cold.

I mean listen to these properties that would make sense.

aerogels are resistant to heat,

they can hold over 100x their weight.

They insulate heat well.

They are transperant.

If adhesion and structure were gained due to cold, it would explain why it dissolves.

It would explain why the webbing didn't stick to his hand (body heat)

It would have to be made with water, reducing the price of make.

They are non-toxic

It would come out of the spinneret and then freeze while expanding to retain it's formula.

Depending on the gel, you can tamper with it's elastomeric properties.


There are many gels/resins that fit that description, but I guess the hard part is trying to find a liquid that both crystallizes and becomes adhesive when frozen.

like this, but with adhesion as well:

http://www.silcos.com/en/cold-curing.php

 

[White_widow]

Well, we need an adhesive that works immediately and doesn't destroy the formula. We could use an emulsified nano-material with PVA, but we still need a glue that is strong enough to hold about 300- 500 psi, and won't change the chemical composition.

Contact cement could work if it weren't for that rule that both objects need 24 hours to cure before it BECOMES instant.

Cyanoacrylate would work if it didn't destroy hydroxide bonds.

UV resins could work if they were cheap and could evaporate.

The one property that doesn't make sense to me is the "This dissolves in 2 hours" Does anyone have any ideas on materials that fit that description? Keep in mind that our best glue is cyanoacrylate, and that reacts with water. That's the only reason the PVA wouldn't work if sufficiently distributed.

 

[spidey44]

What is the tensile strength of aerogel?

 

[White_widow]

depends on the composition. There are many types of aerogels.

 

[White_widow]

nevermind about the aerogels. they are too easily destroyed by pressure. However, we can model the formula off of it.

 

[Spectacular23]

hey guys.., I just had an idea. We're all using CO2 as the propellant right?

(I mean it's easy to access, cheap, and almost all pressure equipment is made for it; so I expect the answer is yes.)

Why don't we find a strong adhesive that cures when, and only when it's cold? For my shooter, I can kind of use any adhesive because there are tons of adhesives that crosslink and crystallize in heat.

The reason. Let's assume that you want to use your web line as a more safety thing. You fire it with CO2 or another gas that gets REALLY cold. The adhesive sticks, and when it warms up, it becomes a liquid. Assuming that we use an organic strong polymer or a gel, the cold would harden the gel, making it fast hardening. Then, so long as it's non-toxic it doesn't hurt the environment.

If we were to do that, we could by-pass shear thinning and just make a very strong gel. Gels tend to be elastomeric anyway, have moderate viscosity rates, and easily expandable.

Final thought, the only problem with a formula like that would be that the inside of the shooter had to be warmed so that it only congeals when cold.

Replying to your final thought on the shooter being warm. Remember how in the official article to how the webbing works. The cold air draws and expands the webbing out cross linking the bonds to form a strong web line. Now I don't know if that's 100% correct. But how would this work because if the shooters requires some motor work. And run off a small battery, doesn't this alone keep the shooter warm? Therefore whenever the shooter is in use and the web fluid is shot out the cold air along with the cold pressurization will properly present the. Webbing right?

 

[webhead9707]

Well, we need an adhesive that works immediately and doesn't destroy the formula. We could use an emulsified nano-material with PVA, but we still need a glue that is strong enough to hold about 300- 500 psi, and won't change the chemical composition.

Contact cement could work if it weren't for that rule that both objects need 24 hours to cure before it BECOMES instant.

Cyanoacrylate would work if it didn't destroy hydroxide bonds.

UV resins could work if they were cheap and could evaporate.

The one property that doesn't make sense to me is the "This dissolves in 2 hours" Does anyone have any ideas on materials that fit that description? Keep in mind that our best glue is cyanoacrylate, and that reacts with water. That's the only reason the PVA wouldn't work if sufficiently distributed.

Are there any catalysts for Contact cement that you could use?

 

[White_widow]

not really. Even if that were the case, you would have to apply the contact adhesive to every item you were going to bond the webbing to before hand.

Maybe a pressure based adhesive that has a solvent that has a melting point below room temperature could help. Again though, it would still be an acrylate.


I don't know guys, I keep feeling like the main idea hasn't changed since we started. Because acrylate polymers that react to hydroxide ions are the only glues fast enough they are the only ones we can use. Whether it be cellulose or PVA or nanocellulose or viscose, we have been taking a polymer that flows in emulsion, sending it through a spinneret, and letting the cyanoacrylate force the shape to remain the same.


I really think that something like this might be good. http://www.silcos.com/en/cold-curing.php As Spidey 44 said, adhesives lose their power in the cold. That means that if we can create a strong, elastomeric plastic that dissolves in CO2 we don't have to worry about it bonding to the cyanoacrylate until after it leaves the shooter. It still has the problem that it won't dissolve after two hours, but I mean we're still looking for the answer.

I still think that nanocellulose is close to the answer, but if you add the cyanoacrylate if destroys those shear thinning properties. Either we need to find a better glue, or plastic.

WW SMASH!!! *frustration*

 

[Awesome Man]

To White Widow: does that guy you emailed know where I can get those protiens? Or chemicals that can come close to making those protiens? My thought is to figure out how God made webs or a weak version of it and improving it. The way I see it you are all trying to figure out how to create webs from scratch when there is a recipe locked in a spider to easily make webs

 

[White_widow]

Easily make webs? that's not going to happen. Assuming we had the proteins to make spider webbing and they were obtainable, you'd have to structure them chemically (which scientists can't do), find a way to change their properties (which is a pain), as webbing is not shear-thinning in real life, nor biodegradable, and you still would need to find a glue.

The method we are working on is actually much easier than the one you are working on. and unlike nylon, where scientist have succeeded in making fancy polymers, scientists have only manages to make silk by genetically modifying animals, and they still haven't manages to assemble the proteins successfully. I'll still send you his email if you want, but he can't really help us with this project.

 

[Awesome Man]

Thanks White Widow, that might help.

 

[spidey44]

Should the formula be shear thinning in the web shooter and then shear thickening outside of the shooter so it doesn't just splatter on whatever you shot at?

 

[White_widow]

To Awesome man: His email is [email protected] .

The chemical structure is in this website: http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/spider/page3.htm

To spidey44: If you read ultimate spidey it does splatter a lot, but once the glue in it hardens, it makes sure the web will retain its shape. That's the difference between the web in the shooter vs outside the shooter. whether the propellant is the solvent or the glue cross-links with the formula after it leaves the shooter, that is going to determine the difference between silly string, shaving cream, and water firing from a toy gun.

 

[White_widow]

To make the webbing remain liquid until fired, we have to make sure that the solvent of the plastic component has to work until it leaves the shooter. That much we know for sure until we can get a better glue. So there's only a few ways that can happen.

1.) The solvent is the propellant. That way, the plastic can harden once the gas is forced out of it.

2.) The Cyanoacrylate bonds with the solvent. This would have to mean that it would be a two part formula.

3.) The cyanoacrylate vulcanizes the formula. Vulcanization is the process where sulfer, (or in this case cyanoacrylate) creates a stronger cross-link in a linked rubber. It's what makes tires so tough.

4.) The formula is a colloidal mix of a plastic with an activator in an instant two part epoxy.

5.) the formula's solvent is a gas at room temperature.

6.)We find a solvent for cyanoacrylate which is a gas at room temperature.

With a web shooter like The Web's, any of these are possible if they are well calibrated.

If you are making a single can like me, unless you are using it for fire fighting application (which I've figured most of that formula out) this will be hard.

 

[TheWeb]

We need a skype conference or something >.> if we were all doing this research together at the same time it would make this all easier.

 

[Iron_spider]

Could polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS) be of any use to the formula? It's the stuff used in Silly Putty and caulk.

 

[White_widow]

To The web: I agree, I'm thinking that a chat room or skype would be a good idea.

Iron_spider: PDMS wouldn't work very well. It is an anti-foaming agent.

 

[Iron_spider]

So what are the requirements for the glue, if we are trying to find something else besides cyanoacrylate?

 

[White_widow]

an adhesive strength of 3000 psi or higher, and a curing rate of a few seconds.

There are several types. There are solvent based glues. Stay away from any glue that doesn't have a CO2 solvent. There are two part epoxies, single epoxies, contact adhesives, pressure adhesives, and chemical adhesives.

Chemical, pressure and single epoxies are good. Two part epoxies are only good if you have a shooter like The Web's.

 

[Iron_spider]

And the requirements for the plastic, if we were to replace nanocellulose?

 

[White_widow]

The tensile strength is close to kevlar's in crystalline form. It must have a liquid form or be thixotropic. It should be elastic or have amorphous structures. If at all possible, it should be biodegradable and have strain crystallization.