World How to make the spiderman web shooters.

[White_widow]

Not going to lie, right off the bat, noone has a down pat spiderman webshooter or the formula, but I've got tons of ideas and I've seen that you guys do too. I'm going to post all of my previous entries and add more. If anyone wants to join in, that would be pretty cool. I'm no engineer but I'm a fan of chemistry. Let's do it guys!

Nolder posted this:This purpose of this post is to clarify where we are with the project. We will probably have increased traffic due to the release of the movie (at the time of this posting there are 9 guests viewing this thread ). This was the first thread I came to, as it was the first result when I googled "how to make spiderman web shooters".

Hi! Welcome to the forum! We are a group of people with a common goal of creating functional (not movie prop replicas) web shooters based on those worn by the fictional hero Spider-Man (though you probably already new that). If you have an understanding of chemistry or you're good with small pressurized devices (BB guns, paintball guns, etc), we invite you to create an account and share your ideas with us. If you don't, you can also create an account as we appreciate words of encouragement.
Though everyone has different goals for their web shooter, this is very much a team effort. If you have a question someone is bound to help you. If you have an idea you want an opinion on, you will get many opinions on it.

The following are links to the two main threads regarding the web shooter and a link to our website.

For the creation of the webbing, go here:
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=351889

For construction of the web shooter itself, go here:
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=385775

Our website:
http://realwebtech.webs.com/

If you are feeling adventurous and want to explore old threads, you can find them here:
http://forums.superherohype.com/forumdisplay.php?f=30

Good luck everyone and welcome!

Also, this forum isn't worth anything anymore.

 

[White_widow]

I'm probably the newest person here so if you will, please go easy on me. That being said, nylon (specifically Nylon 6,10) is the best idea so far. Remember this though, all substances have different properties.
The type of nylon created there has four problems:
1.) It isn't fully reactive. This means it might still react with CO2 giving it unwanted properties.

2.)It isn't highly elastic or biodegradable.

3.) The polymer created is a thread and not a rope.

4.) It is flipping expensive.

That being said, it has various advantages.

1.) It is probably the easiest to make
2.)It has properties similar to web such as tensile strength and elongation

Property

Value​

Density (g/cm3)

1.08​

Surface Hardness

RR100​

Tensile Strength (MPa)

58​

Flexural Modulus (GPa)

1.1​

Notched Izod (kJ/m)

0.09​

Linear Expansion (/°C x 10-5)

14​

Elongation at Break (%)

300​

Strain at Yield (%)

15​

Max. Operating Temp. (°C)

70​

Water Absorption (%)

0.4​

Oxygen Index (%)

23​

Flammability UL94

HB​

Volume Resistivity (log ohm.cm)

13​

Dielectric Strength (MV/m)

20​

Dissipation Factor 1kHz

0.09​

Dielectric Constant 1kHz

4.7​

HDT @ 0.45 MPa (°C)

157​

HDT @ 1.80 MPa (°C)

66​

Material. Drying hrs @ (°C)

2 @ 90​

Melting Temp. Range (°C)

230 - 280​

Mould Shrinkage (%)

1.8​

Mould Temp. Range (°C)

30 - 60​

3.)It is reactive allowing for minor tweeks to the formula.
4.) It is created instantly

So with all that concluded, The main issue is the adhesive that is applied to the polymer. I recommend the pressure activated adhesive found in duct tape. The reason why is that dragline web such as the kind spiders use for webs have a glue that will increase strength due to the struggle of prey.

The design for this webshooter would depend on the type of glue used for the adhesive properties. Nanoglue and gorilla glue sound the best to me.
It would involve about six holes with one larger than the rest which the nylon would come through. now as for the designed chambers, that will depend on the glue. We don't want it to react with the hexamethylenediamine or the sebacoyl chloride. I will continue tweeking the formula if you guys want.

Also: Silly string won't contain any of the properties no matter how much you reinforce them. Sure it has the spontaneous polymerization with the yards of string that seem to defy the amount of fluid in the can but the reason why is that it is foam. Foam. Unless you want to risk the tensile strength on shaving cream, it won't work. Only the fiber synthesis will work for this scenerio.​

 

[White_widow]

Now after discussing the properties of a possible fluid design, I offer two questions.

1.) What is the end behavior of the web? That is to say, what properties are held by the end of the web. It it shaped like a net, does it remain in one strand, does it spread like shot gun fire (while simultaneously being wound around the web), or would the ends curl in on themselves?

2.) Would creating the fluid be cost effective? Assuming that I could come up with the formula of a nylon polymer that had highly elastic qualities that was biodegradable, how much would it cost to make? To answer, At least thirty dollars a meter. If a person weighs about spiderman's weight, estimated to be around 160 lbs, then the max net force on the webbing would be 300 lbs due to gravity and momentum. This means that the nylon would have to be put together in tons of mini strands to catch a person. That doesn't include all the extra weight he carries.

So here's an alternate idea. Since a webshooter can be modified to hold more webbing, but the fluid is really expensive, (If silly string runs out that quickly, imagine marvelites everywhere with the real deal.) Then why not hold premade webbing. My suggestion is this. Fishing line that holds 300lbs.

http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/st...:referralID=NA

This cost is about equal to get more than the nylon compounds. (Proof is at http://www.onlinesciencemall.com/Sho...id/0/SFV/30852)

The only difficulty there is to figure out how to shoot the fishing line. It isn't hard to find an adhesive that won't change the chemical formula and it will stick (unless line is teflon coated.) The shooter would certainly have to be modified but it would guarenteed hold weight and allow for easy adhesive coating.

Now here's another question. What does everyone want this webshooter for? Swinging, coating friends, improvised rope, blinding people, or anything else? Since spiderweb is near impossible to recreate technologically, we would need to have a purpose so we could plan accordingly. A webshooter has been created, but it only holds ten pounds and it is bulkier than toy's R Us. I found it at http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f47/t347614.html
From there, there are modifications that can be made to increase strength and properties. In my opinion, the one who made this is a genius.

 

[White_widow]

The first image is a pre-existing web shooter that can hold about ten pounds and is made of several glues.

The second image is the nylon idea. The bottom part is a whole chamber of gas and not co2 There are still improvements to be made.

The final image was my very first idea for a web shooter. This doesn't fire the webs but it provides swinging rope that retracts. (Mind you, the wire would have to be 300lb test instead of 250 lbs test) There are many edits that can be done here.

I had an idea from all of these is, you need ALOT of fluid, or at least alot of web. So instead of building a wrist web shooter, why not build one that takes up the whole forearm, As long as the wrist is mobile and the thing goes under a long sleeve shirt, it shouldn't matter.

 

[White_widow]

I had an idea while strolling through Walmart. Why not make a stronger version of the http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f47/t347614.html web shooter? Instead of superglue, the strength would be found in an epoxy. It has similar chemical properties as nylon 6,12 and it can be dissolved by a solvent. Also it is VERY adhesive and "It is common to increase the strength of epoxy with fibrous reinforcement". The only problems are getting it off of things and making it dry quickly enough. The fastest drying epoxy I found was five minutes.

 

[White_widow]

Here is the website with the best description of the web shooters:
http://marvel.com/universe/Spider-Man's_Web-Shooters.

It seems to fit the nylon theory that it is an advanced polymer with properties that react with air and pressure.

 

[White_widow]

Altogther, the webbing fluid has to be made of a quickly polymerized substance that is biodegradable. We know for a fact that the web fluid is made out of certain materials.

Some include:

-A resin
-a hardener
OR
-a plasticizer
-an adhesive
-an elastic chemical

The biggest challenge is in two things:
1.) Which resins and hardening agents to use
2.)The mechanics of the spinnerette in the shooter

 

[thebatsam]

Awesome work White_widow, nice to know there are people who know their stuff
Never really thought about making one seriously, but honestly believe it can be done

I literally just saw this thread and started jotting a few things down (I'm a biochem engineering major so this stuff comes naturally to me). I know its quite basic, but this is stuff off the top of my head, no research done. Hope it helps.

 

[White_widow]

I like the insight Thebatsam! The mixers are an interesting idea I had not considered. I was wondering though, if the spinning chamber was always spinning, then how would the supplier tubes connect to it? I'd be interested to learn about this design.

I recently had another idea as well. Since nylon it the closest thing to web that we have comercially available, and super adhesive properties of specific glues relies on heat, why not use the two principles together. I like combining the sebacoyl chloride and diamohexane, but the problem is in the cost of supplies. We all know that parker was a poor college kid. He would need really cheap supplies.

There is a really cheap glue called nano glue. When heated above 400 degrees celsius, this glue becomes a stronger adhesive than gecko feet. nylon's melting point is about 350 degrees celsius. If one were to melt nylon webbing (no pun intended) and this advanced glue, then it could come together without the use of a surfactant. Also, when at this heat, some nylons have shear thinning properties. Imagine this:

Melt nylon webbing and nanoglue. Pour them into a metal cartridge. Wait until it dries Then use either CO2 or some other non flammible gas at about 50-100psi. Insert the cartridge into the wristlet device which has the spinnerette nozzles and some of the parts from a heat gun that heats the shear thinning nylon/glue compound to hot enough to melt it. The co2 would expand, drastically adding pressure. to, hopefully, 300-400psi. The mechanism would release the incredibly hot liquid. As it hit the air, it would begin to cool rapidly. The tip of the web, due to the glue, would bond to the surface, not having time to lose its heat endowed adhesive abilities. As the rest cools down, it would create a solid strand of rope. The glue would still be sticky enough to hold, but you could let go.

The only two problems for this design:
1.)It's not biodegradable.
2.) It will burn anything it touches. I'm talking third degree burns.

For the last two problems, perhaps a seperate chamber contains a coolant that activates a half second after the tip is fired.

 

[thebatsam]

Yeah I forgot to cross out that line....decided that the chamber would start spinning when the palm button is pressed. Obviously this would cause a slight time delay in the button being pressed and the nylon being released from the nozzle.

Nanoglue? That's a pretty ingenious idea! I've played around with it briefly in the lab freshman year when I was studying commercially used glues. From what I remember, It was a polyeurethane glue that got stronger as you heated it, but I do remember it losing it strength considerably which, as suggested by you, could be counteracted by mixing it with nylon. I do also remember vaguely another point (may have to dig out my notes to confirm) about polyeurethane glues that might interest you. If I'm not mistaken, the strong adhesive factor from this glue stems from its foaming action when it comes into contact with moisture, meaning that it expands as it cures. This also suggests that a light misting of water on one surface to be glued may be necessary. If we could somehow include this into the design, along with the temperature increase, by perhaps having a moistened nozzle end then we can increase the adhesiveness of the mixture exponentially.

Also couldn't you have a metal cartridge with nylon and one with the nanoglue and have it mixed/melted in a spinning chamber? which incorporates the glue gun parts. Just brainstorming here.....would possibly eliminate the need to melt it initially. With the coolant issue, that's a tough one and either you pump a coolant into the mixture just before it's going to leave the nozzle. Or possibly, (this may be a terrible idea) you some incorporate the concept of how moisture improves it's adhesiveness and formulate a water cooling system of some sort (maybe have the small tube before the nozzle coated with ice cold water on it's outside and the moisture from the condensation will sticky up the fluid).

 

[White_widow]

What college did you go to that allowed labs with adhesives freshman year? That sounds like fun!

moisture increases the foam? That's a good point. I completely forgot to factor that into the equation. Thanks, I for that bit of information! I'm glad to have someone as knowledgable as you on this thread. Hmmm, what if water vapor was the propellant? Though wouldn't it just be released as steam or would it moisturize as it hit air? If the water was in the cartridge, it might foam prematurely too. The expansion factor also increases the amount of webbing created, meaning that less means more. I also think that the foam may increase elasticity slightly too. Thanks for the info!

As for the chamber, the reason I would create the solid in the cartridge first was so that the webbing material was in the cartridge before the pressurized gas, eliminating the need for an expensive liquid aerosol compressor. Adding co2 cartridges that add more bulk to the design might look bad. I think that the coolant of the water might warp the casing when such hot temperatures hit cool water, though I suspect you knew this when you said, "this might be a terrible idea." As for how fast it cools, I suspect that the Co2 and the added speed of its propulsion might speed the cooling process. I can always try to experiment.

So here is the list of supplies I suspect one would need.

-Metal cartridges (I would imagine a steel flask or welded lighter cases.)
- air compressor
-air compressor nozzles (one edited with cake decor tip for tip pattern)
-air tube
-glass container with lip
-nylon webbing
-polyeurethane adhesive/ nanoglue
-heat gun
-battery
-copper wires for battery that connect to heat gun parts.
-washer/ holed shield
-trigger connected to a valve

 

[thebatsam]

I go to college in London (Queen Mary). I'm on the accelerated program so am doing a bachelors in 3 years, it's a possibility that commercial adhesives is a sophomore module that I did early. My prof loves polymers and adhesives so maybe he wanted to kind of throw us into the deep end.

Water vapour as the propellant would be a pretty good way of doing it if there was a simple way of implementing it. I completely forgot about the casing getting warped....definitely not the way to go.

How would one go about doing this though? What would be your first plan of action White_widow? Seems like we're are the only two people right now with a rough idea of what to do and the right scientific knowledge. I'm up for teaming up and halving the research if you're game.
I suggest the first thing to be done is get the fluid mixture up to scratch then we can start with adjusting it's precise stickiness, strength etc. What do you think?

Also, I'm not quite clear on your first suggestion of how the chamber operates. Will it be spinning? I remember briefly reading about how Parker's one had a moving part in the chamber which is why the webbing came out as a sort of weaved rope.

I've done a little sketch of what possibly could be a first draft of the design. Excuse the chicken scratch handwriting (and unnecessarily large size). I've though briefly about the water propulsion and considered maybe attaching a small electric water jet to the side which would activate after the contents of the cartridge are released into the chamber. This would propel the contents with added velocity out of the mechanism while foaming it up due to the availability of moisture.

 

[White_widow]

I don't have enough time tonight to draw up a sketch but, all points you brought up are important to consider. Here are the websites that I used for some of the research. I did use more, but these are the ones I returned to enough:
http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/silly-string1.htm
http://web.mit.edu/nnf/publications/GHM59.pdf
http://www.tx.ncsu.edu/jtatm/volume5issue1/Articles/Saravanan/Saravanan_Full_170_05.pdf
http://www.gyroscope.com/images/polymorph/polymorph.pdf
http://www.alibaba.com/promotion/promotion_silk-fibroin-promotion-list.html
http://www.budgethumidors.com/Superior-Clear-Mono-110yd-200lb-test/M/B0007RN8PK.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tackifier
http://www.ehow.com/how_4922965_build-shooter.html?ref=Track2&utm_source=ask
http://irreference.com/how-to-build-a-web-shooter/
http://marvel.com/universe/Spider-Man's_Web-Shooters
http://books.google.com/books?id=MEYwW6dpVwEC&pg=PA1667&lpg=PA1667&dq=shear+thinning+nylon+polymer&source=bl&ots=xbOF7MAgoi&sig=ii3hSBGcTmqyUnzQtCna83BAGI4&hl=en&ei=e5rNTL_rJMKqlAesgZHoCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=shear%20thinning%20nylon%20polymer&f=false
http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/402condensepolymers.html
http://www.par-group.co.uk/UserDocs/Plastics%20-%20Technical/Nylon12.pdf
http://www.polymerprocessing.com/polymers/PA610.html
http://www.onlinesciencemall.com/Shop/Control/Product/fp/vpid/2584426/vpcsid/0/SFV/30852
http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=461
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f47/t347614.html
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=231466
http://www.springerlink.com/content/x7226p8ux368k1p0/
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/materials-science/material-science-products.html?TablePage=20202255.

Also, these are written ideas by others:
1.)first you need a carbodiimide to form an ester with a carboxylic acid which you have to deoxidize first than you need some liquid fibroin. then you need to take all the air out of the cartridge so the carboxylic acid isnt oxidized by accident. (I have all the chemicals in mind but will not give them away ).
2.)the formula is liquid cement+strong liquid glue+c6h13no acid (is also a propellant)
3.)quick drying cement, thermoplastic epoxy,c6h13no acid or deoxidized vinegar and baking soda, thermosetting glue, thermoplastic nylon

4.)Make some with CO2 Cartridges, tubes, puncture needles, small electric spinners (to form "strand") Have a solid platform that will fit comfortably and a good puncture system in place while keeping the mechanism in an air-tight environment. Formula for "web" (don't swing with this stuff)
1/3 light CA glue (super glue)
1/3 anti-adhesive (preserve as liquid)
1/3 regular Elmer's glue (for texture)
add a small amount of vinegar and salt (to speed reaction when exposed to cold air)
The substance is stored in the main chamber, which is a 6oz model airplane fuel tank available at most hobby stores. With the pressure created by the output of the CO2 cartridge, the fluid is forced through the opening on the opposite side if the chamber (I also added a secondary rubber pipe that extends to to the nozzle). The substance is immediately spun by the "nozzle," which is a funnel attached directly to the 4.5v electric located at the entrance of the mechanism. The substance is rotated at about 1,500RPM. (only a small amount is actually forced into the mechanism) ------ During this time, the substance is cooled to subzero temperatures due to the cold air immited by the CO2 cartridge, but the reaction caused by the Co2 between the sodium and the cyanoacrylate. -------- At the end of the "nozzle" is a small metal shield (spinning at the same RPMs as the funnel. This metal shield has six 2mm diameter holes around the outside and a larger 4mm hole in the middle. The dense substance (dense at cold temperature) is forced through the small openings. Once it leaves the nozzle the liquid becomes far less dense in a matter of a fraction of a second. This reaction to the temperature change happens so fast that the liquid instantly turns into a semi-solid gel and crystals (most likely to to the sodium). ------ The Co2 cartridge is punctured by two small spring-loaded nailed (sharp). The two 1" steel springs and the small "v" clamp inbeteen them are squeezed together by the tension on the cables (which lead through small fiber tubes to the front of the shooter).

 

[White_widow]

Accidental double post.

 

[White_widow]

So right off the bat, there are a few problems:
1.) it has no cooling system making it cool after at least five seconds (without paying attention to polyurethane).
2.)it only makes one strand (which weakens it)
3.)There is no switch for the heating system.
4.)The air might go through the case flap.
5.) It doesn't cold spin. (This is when it is forced through the nozzle at cold temperatures giving it four times tensile strength.)
6.)Still not biodegradable.

Now as for your comments, I have provided some of the research online for where I am currently. The chamber, like peter's, won't spin. His mixer was in the nozzle. I believe it was a teflon turbine. I think, If I was to use a mixer, It would drain the battery, and add bulk to the shooter. To make a functional turbine, it would require the turbine to be spinning due to pressure. Its possible to make one, but it would have to be made of metal, and I'm not sure if peter, being a highschool student, could use a welder. I'm about his age (around 17), and I'm not allowed to use one, so imagine aunt May smelling combusted fumes coming from her basement. All of the parts in my shooter aren't welded, but then again, it is very simplistic. Now as for the water issue, I'm not quite sure what to do about that. Using is as moisture and a cooant would be cool. I suppose adding a second chamber in the flask with another pressure flap would help. I think the ratio would be 80% mixture, 20% water. The only question would be how to add pressure to the canister. I would like to apologize for my diagram's writing too. I wrote too small for online. Anyway, I only know the basics, I still am trying to figure out how to incorperate motors into the design. I wonder if there are such things as hollow motors. Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts. As for the other properties:

Stickiness:Created by a resin.

Tensile strength:created by a mollecular bond.

Stretchiness: (Studied lycra to figure this add) A mixture of a rock solid polymer(like nylon) in an exact proportion of an Elastomer.

heat resistance:curing agent (increases tensile strength as well)

biodegradability:Ester bonds or backbone changes in formula.

Safety: Inorganic vs organic.

Finally, Since you are a bio-chemist, this combination might peek your curiosity. Someone who obviously looked into the topic had something to add. "first you need a carbodiimide to form an ester with a carboxylic acid which you have to deoxidize first than you need some liquid fibroin. then you need to take all the air out of the cartridge so the carboxylic acid isnt oxidized by accident." I know where to get the fibroin but the other two, I've got no idea.

Whatever the case, I would like to hear your ideas, especially on the water jet and spinning chambers. Those are the things I lack in my design. I like your ideas, and for "chicken scatch" it isn't half bad. This is a fun project to get into. If you have an new ideas, don't hesitate to share, I would love to hear it.

 

[White_widow]

I think soon I will try a test of cooling time, tensile strength, and viscosity of the compound. I found a yard of nylon webbing and a type of heated glue. I don't have any polyeurethane glue but I have hot glue gun sticks. They should provide all the properties needed except for the foaming. That may be for the better though, considering that foaming might weaken the tensile strength. It will still have the problem with the amount per cartridge but I can work something out. All together, I have several testing materials for different webbing combinations.

-silly string

-Loctite epoxy mixed with elmer's glue

-nylon and thermalplastic glue

In just your opinion, what would you think the proportions for each would be like?

 

[White_widow]

One of my friends enlightened me on a topic of the states of matter. If a liquid were to have a certain amount of pressure, then it would remain a liquid, reguardless of heat. If I can figure out that pressure for nylon, and can regulate the fluid to stay at that pressure, replacable cartridges would be a real possibility. Any thoughts?

 

[White_widow]

I'm almost ready to test. I just need a valve and tomorrow, I will be testing tensile strength and adhesive abilities if I have time. So far I have Purchased:

1.) glue gun sticks
2.)nylon webbing
3.)Nylon rope
4.)air compressor
5.)heating glass
6.)multi purpose elmer's glue
7.)Flask set
8.)Flask funnel

 

[White_widow]

I messed up a muscle in my back so I wasn't able to do the hang tensile test. I have purchased a valve and some glue. Now I can experiment with two types of nylon, three types of glue and one type of rubber. At first I will try fiber synthesis and then add the adhesives. Once I do that, then I will be ready to pressurize.

As it turns out, I accidentally maimed my best cannister trying to remove the drinking cap. That will limit the pressurizing experiment. This in mind, I will still test the rope tensile strength soon.

 

[White_widow]

I have just performed the tensile strength experiment and the results are inconclusive. If I want to melt these, I will have to use a budson burner, hot plate, microwave or Oven. That being said, when they are in their purchased form, the webbing can be used for chin-ups without any strain, and the rope is meant to resist elements, thus is too slippery for now to test. I am to assume now that the package 65 pounds is accurate.

 

[White_widow]

I thought of something else for the shooter. If one were to add a high iron powder concentration and open the pressure valve by using an electromagnetic coil, then the iron filaments would magnetize and when they exit the shooter, would attract to itself meaning that the strand would become stronger and stick together instead of flying off into different strands. Also, after some research, I think I could easily build one of these electromagnetic valves and with a few edits to the cartridges, they could be easily replaced. All I need to do is figure out a specific pressure and get a budson burner and I can build a prototype.

Finally I think I need to think more carefully about the adhesive. Since most adhesives lose tackiness with heat, I need to wonder if it increases once the heat is absent or if the glue is lost forever. Anywho, I think the best wec would be a water based contact cement and polyeurethane until I can track down some nano-glue. the water would cause the polyeurethane to expand and the contact cement would stick until the contents evaporate which would be about half a second after the web leaves the can. The advantage of using the cement is that the rope would be more elastic and the adhesive would come off clean within a few hours. The advantage with the polyeurethane is that it cures hard and it expands and a reaction with sodium will make it harden. As for the nylon, it highly increases the tensile strength and iron will strengthen and magentize the web. The only thing missing from this is a dissolving feature.

 

[White_widow]

That's how I think I'll make the valve and as for the motor to spin the web, I have an idea. Let's make a seperate switch. That way, it will incorperate two fingers, it will allow a thick stand versus a bunch mini sprands and it could make a rope or a net. It would also allow more objects to be hooked for more stability or a glob could be made while still under pressure. Please any thoughts at all?

 

[Brogz007]

Dude, you are the most Peter Parker-ish person I've ever had the pleasure of following online!
Don't loose hope, this is awesome

 

[White_widow]

Thank you. I appreciate the guesture. I'm almost ready to build a prototype. I'll do so in a few weeks.

 

[SpeterMan3]