Welcome Class, to Room 666...Again

[Abaddon]

What made you think it was in my head?

 

[The Spawn]

Do onto others, as they do onto you.

 

[Abaddon]

I don't see how thats relevant.

 

[Kessel Day]

just a few thoughts on your ark/flood/rainbow thesis, my dear Spawn:

1. the ark was as long as a football field and was three stories high. lotsa room there.

2. the Bible says Noah brought "kinds" of animals, not a sample of each of the various types of dog, etc. perhaps at the time, the genes allowing for those variations were locked in those samples Noah took with him. (Gen 7:14 "every wild beast according to its kind")

as far as food supplies, (and this is just speculation on my part) - if God could put Adam to sleep, couldn't He do the same for the animals? or at least make their metabolisms slow for a time?

3. i don't know where you got the idea that tar was only created during the time of the flood. the Bible said Noah used tar so that's what he used. (animals have been on the earth a lot longer than humans afterall. even the Bible says that.)

and haven't dinosaurs been found trapped in tar pits?

as for the ark rotting - it was made from a "resinous tree" (Gen 6:14). i believe people use those kind of trees even today because they are not likely to mold.

4. the people of Noah's time lived for hundreds of years. it was only after the flood that man's lifespan diminished.

5. why did the lifespans diminish? the book of Genesis (1:6-8) explains that there was an "expanse" of water in the heavens (the upper atmosphere). that expanse could have blocked the harmful radiation that is part of our daily lives today.

prior to the flood, it is very possible that a cloud barrier, diffuse enough to see the moon and the sun but too thick to see stars, may have kept this earth at tropical temperatures while protecting its inhabitants from harmful rays.

6. that "expanse" also explains a) where did the water come from for the flood and b) why a rainbow was possible after the flood and not before. . i have read that a great deal of water could have been stored in a very hot upper layer of our atmosphere. if it was thick enough, rainbows would have been unlikely to occur.

more later.

Kess

 

[Assassin32]

Spawn, it's been well over a week.


And, Venom was in the Sinister Six for awhile.

 

[Kessel Day]

this is an interesting little thread you have here, my dear spawn. everything from Biblical criticism to early american history to the abilities of superheroes.


back to da ark:

1. the argument about incest is specious really. the account never says that Noah had any more children, but if he did, wouldn't they be with his own wife? he was a righteous man. Noah's children's children would have married their cousins most likely. and being so close to human perfection, they would have not had the defective genes that modern humans carry.

as for Noah getting inebriated, wouldn't the end of the world make you a little nervous too?

2. why did God flood the earth? one reason was of course to rid it of the wicked people who lived there. another was to cause the end of the violent hybrid children of fallen angels (Gen 6:1-4) and to make those demonic angels go back to a spirit form indefinitely. it was then that they were condemned to dense darkness. (2Pet 2:4)

3. where are the dead that God destroyed? since they were condemned by God Himself, they will not be resurrected. they are not in a burning Hell, nor are any of them in heaven.

we are warned that our own actions affect our families. God's character is such that He would never put to death the innocent with the guilty. (He can see into the future if He wishes.) perhaps one of the reasons it took many years to complete the ark was that He wanted any deserving ones to die a natural death before the flood occurred.

all those God destroys deserve it. (Jer 17:10)

God, who can create or destroy entire galaxies with no effort at all, has to get some poor slob to build an enormous ship, transport millions of animals from all over the planet to this ship, flood the entire planet, drain the water and then redistribute the animals again. What is the point? Why not just click his fingers and cause everything to be as he wishes it to be?

this is a particularly interesting question because it in embodies the entire theme of the Bible. to answer it, one must go back farther than the episode with Noah, back to the creation of man.

God created perfect humans who had not only perfect bodies, but perfect minds. the earth and all that was in it, He gave to them with His blessing. the only thing He held back was His sovereignty over them - His right to decide for them what is right conduct and what is wrong conduct. that was what the test of the tree of "good and evil" was about.

Adam and Eve had free will and knew perfectly well what the consequences of disobedience were. (God wanted their love and willing obedience and as their Creator He deserved it. He does not want robots.)

so what does this have to do with why God didn't just destroy A&E when they sinned and just start again?


killing A&E would not prove that God is the correct one to decide what is good or bad for the human race. it would only prove that He has the power to destroy it.

who would know it, you say? if He destroyed everyone, no one would know any different, right?

wrong. the angels would know. they have free will too. (some have been persuaded by satan to leave heaven anyway.) how could they love someone who, if you disobeyed, POW!, you're gone, even if you had an honest question.


satan's questions to eve (Gen 3:1-5) brought into question the right of God to rule humans.

the questions also implied that God was holding something beneficial back from us. what was that "beneficial" thing? - "being like God, knowing good and bad".

but how could God prove it was beneficial for humans to follow His commands?

He had to let a lot of time pass where humans could try many types of governments to see if they could bring happiness to all of mankind. this humans have failed to do.

from time to time, God has involved Himself in the world of mankind to bring about the reconciliation of people to Himself or to further His purposes.

perhaps the world of Noah's day was so violent (Gen 6:11) that God was protecting those who were righteous from destruction. Noah preached about the coming of the flood for many years (2Pet2:5) before it came and still only 8 persons survived.

at some point, however, God will step into the world's affairs again to finish His purpose for the earth - to fill it with perfect, peaceful, loving humans. those who will not love their neighbors as themselves will be once again destroyed. (Ps 37:10,11)

it is then that the meek will truly inherit the earth that our first parents lost.

 

[I.M. Fletcher]

Tell me about Atlantis. Has anyone discovered it yet?

MacGyver discovered it back in the early 90s on TV, but that's about the extent of my knowledge.

 

[Abaddon]

Kessel Day is intelligent for a religious person.




I personally feel the Bible is often misinterpreted by people.I dont think its meant to be taken in literal terms like so many people do.God KNEW Adam and Eve would eat the apple.He wanted them too.You dont just put people in a beautiful land,(with a mischievous serpent),give them evreything they need,but tell them not to touch one thing,and expect them to listen.Its ludicrous.God was probably waiting in the bushes all along,ready to spring out and say "AHA!SINNERS!".
I keep hearing chritians say,"Oh if they hadnt sinned we'd still be in Eden".
They really dont get it.God was like a dad trying to get rid of his kids after they got older,and force them into independence.He was just sneaky about it.

But it is very telling that mans fall from grace came when they ate of the Tree of Knowlegde of Good and Evil.Humans are the only beings with any moral percepion.That stuff doesnt exist in any nature but our own.The world is what is,and there is really no such thing as good or bad.People might be motivated and judge by it,but it really doesnt matter to anyone but us.Its like a genetic flaw or something.

 

[Miss Kitty]

I don't have much to add because I am not a very religious gal.

Kitty

 

[Abaddon]

Then there was no point in you posting in this thread.



Abaddon

 

[Spider-Gamer]

LOL!


Spider-Gamer

 

[The Kingpin]

Who are/were the Fantastic Four's Rouges?

The Kingpin

 

[Assassin32]

 

[Assassin32]

Dead.

 

[The Spawn]

The Ark thing isn't my take on the...event.

 

[The Spawn]

Atlantis: http://www.hardcoreware.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16499&goto=nextoldest

 

[The Spawn]

I know its been more than a week...what are you referring to?

 

[Kessel Day]

Originally posted by Abaddon
Kessel Day is intelligent for a religious person.

thank you, abaddon . . . i think.

Originally posted by Abaddon
I personally feel the Bible is often misinterpreted by people.I dont think its meant to be taken in literal terms like so many people do.God KNEW Adam and Eve would eat the apple.He wanted them too.You dont just put people in a beautiful land,(with a mischievous serpent),give them evreything they need,but tell them not to touch one thing,and expect them to listen.Its ludicrous.God was probably waiting in the bushes all along,ready to spring out and say "AHA!SINNERS!".

why do you think God knew A&E would sin? if God can do anything, couldn't He, for justice's sake, not foreknow what they would do?

also, you are assuming that the tree that God forbid them to eat was more disirable looking than other trees; or that the kind of fruit on the true was different than any other tree in the garden. all the trees in Eden had luscious fruit.

lastly, abaddon, picture this: what would you do if someone took you to a beautiful island and gave you the most beautiful woman on earth as your wife. the job you were given to do there was something you always dreamed of doing; the food was delicious and you and the family you would have would be forever young and healthy . . . but

the owner of the island has told you in advance that all this will be yours forever as long as you did not push a certain red button. He tells you that not only will you lose your home, but that you and your wife will die. would you be tempted to push that button?

Originally posted by Abaddon
I keep hearing chritians say,"Oh if they hadnt sinned we'd still be in Eden".
They really dont get it.God was like a dad trying to get rid of his kids after they got older,and force them into independence.He was just sneaky about it.

i guess it depends on your idea of what God is like. my God never lies and never "tricks" people into doing what is right. He gives them a choice and tells them the consequences.

and what a creepy thing that would be for God to do . . . to forbid A&E from eating from the tree, all the while wanting them to do it and then when they do it, He curses them both, throws them out of the garden and condemns their children to sickness and death. that is not a thing a God of love would do.

Adam and Eve both knew it was wrong to eat from that tree. they were both warned that they would die. the test was whether they felt God had the right to tell them not to do it.

more later, i'm late for work.

 

[Assassin32]

Exactly two weeks ago you said that you would have all of the Olympic trials information by the end of the week.

 

[Kessel Day]

Originally posted by The Spawn
The Ark thing isn't my take on the...event.

what is it that you believe?

 

[Kessel Day]

Originally posted by Abaddon

But it is very telling that mans fall from grace came when they ate of the Tree of Knowlegde of Good and Evil.Humans are the only beings with any moral percepion.That stuff doesnt exist in any nature but our own.The world is what is,and there is really no such thing as good or bad.People might be motivated and judge by it,but it really doesnt matter to anyone but us.Its like a genetic flaw or something.

i'm not really understanding what you are saying here, abaddon.

when adam disobeyed God, he sinned. that is what "fall from grace" means. adam was perfect until he made himself imperfect. the word sin means "to fall short of God's requirements". it doesn't mean adam didn't have any moral perception before he sinned.

how can i say that? first, adam was an adult not a child. he was taught by God for the long period of time he was in the garden without eve. adam had adult responsibilities - to cultivate the garden and to name all the animals. he would not have given the animals just any name. he would have had to study them first. by study of those animals, he learned about their biology - how they lived, how they procreated and how they died.

adam knew the law about the tree as did his wife, eve. adam and eve both knew the punishment; they knew what death was. eve was fooled into thinking that she could disobey with impunity because she would be "like God". adam probably followed her decision, not because he was fooled too (1Tim2:14), but because he loved her more than God.

lastly, abaddon: your argument that God wanted a&e to sin, makes God responsible for all the diseases and death that has taken place on the earth.

this is in direct contradiction to the Bible which says that death was brought about by adam's disobedience.

Rom 5:12 says "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned --"

adam could not have perfect children when he himself was flawed. we all die because of adam's choice; otherwise we would be living forever youthful on a beautiful earth even today.

 

[The Kingpin]

Spawn, your sig should be http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=96587&perpage=25&pagenumber=68

 

[Abaddon]

Originally posted by Kessel Day
i'm not really understanding what you are saying here, abaddon.

when adam disobeyed God, he sinned. that is what "fall from grace" means. adam was perfect until he made himself imperfect. the word sin means "to fall short of God's requirements". it doesn't mean adam didn't have any moral perception before he sinned.

how can i say that? first, adam was an adult not a child. he was taught by God for the long period of time he was in the garden without eve. adam had adult responsibilities - to cultivate the garden and to name all the animals. he would not have given the animals just any name. he would have had to study them first. by study of those animals, he learned about their biology - how they lived, how they procreated and how they died.

adam knew the law about the tree as did his wife, eve. adam and eve both knew the punishment; they knew what death was. eve was fooled into thinking that she could disobey with impunity because she would be "like God". adam probably followed her decision, not because he was fooled too (1Tim2:14), but because he loved her more than God.

lastly, abaddon: your argument that God wanted a&e to sin, makes God responsible for all the diseases and death that has taken place on the earth.

this is in direct contradiction to the Bible which says that death was brought about by adam's disobedience.

Rom 5:12 says "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned --"

adam could not have perfect children when he himself was flawed. we all die because of adam's choice; otherwise we would be living forever youthful on a beautiful earth even today.

I stand by my argument.It was when A%E were booted out,that they truly learned to be independent.It was clear that God knew they would sin too.

Furthermore,according to the Bible God is responsible for those things.I'll explain in more detail when I'm not busy.

 

[Kessel Day]

Originally posted by Abaddon
I stand by my argument.It was when A%E were booted out,that they truly learned to be independent.It was clear that God knew they would sin too.

Furthermore,according to the Bible God is responsible for those things.I'll explain in more detail when I'm not busy.

it is true that after a&e left the garden, they were on their own. however, they were now subject to old age and death. cruel masters both.

would you mind (when you're not too busy ), showing me a scripture that shows that God knew they would sin?

as for as God being responsible for those things, the Bible says that He is a God of justice. (Deut 32:4) and that "He is a God of faithfulness with whom there is no injustice, righteous and upright is He".

wouldn't it be unjust and even cruel of a human parent to ask his child to do something (or refrain from doing something) all the while knowing that the child was unable to obey? and even worse, that the parent secretly wanted the child to disobey? and worse of all, that the parent administered a severe punishment for the disobedience?

God created us to be dependent on Him. it was satan that urged a&e to independent.

a question: if Jesus died to atone for our sins and pay the ransom in our behalf (a perfect man for a perfect man), how would it be just for God to ask Jesus to undergo torture and death, if as you state, God wanted our first parents to sin? wouldn't that be a little hypocritical of God?

 

[Abaddon]

You keep seeing it as a punishment,when really thats n