The Dark Knight Rises "We'll use many of the same characters"....

[Keyser Sushi]

Oh, they exist. Even if there's only 1 or 2 of them.

Well if that's all it is, that batte's kinda won, isn't it?

You guys are putting way too much effort on analyzing this. Bringing back a character does not defy any existential laws of movie universe dynamics. They are fictional characters. It is very very easy for them to bring Ra's or dent back. They could even get another actor to play the role if they felt like it. Thats how easy it is. Theres no rules or conventions against it.

Plus its good fun to speculate bout this so why dont we just keep the discussion going that way?

Because some people apparently have no imagination and don't understand the meaning of "fun speculation."

 

[FCEEVIPER]

I don't want to pass sweeping condemnation but...

Anyone who thinks Ra's is coming back is INSANE. Rabid, elbow-gnawing, straight-jacket-wrenching, frothing, spitting, INSANE. An absolute live-hamster eating LUNATIC.

And I will demonstrate this fact beyond any shadow of a doubt in the following lecture. Take notes.

Please dont make me do this for Harvey Dent.

Wow, just wow.

You're wasting more energy than Ricky Martin's girlfriend.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

I keep seeing this counter-argument, as if to say it's blasphemous to even consider Nolan's film as realistic, which technically, it is.

But we're not talking technically. We can go through both movies and select unrealistic occurrences, but that's not really the point. In terms of superhero comic book movies, it is grounded in a realistic fashion. Does that mean that there's still a fantasy element to it? Of course, but to suggest that Ras or Two-Face may have survived doesn't stay consistent with the tone that's been set. And yes, a tone has been set where things like that won't happen.

Just like the new Bond films have unrealistic scenes as any action film would, you still won't see disappearing cars or laser beams as you did in the past. And it's because of this very approach that these films are even successful to begin with, so let's not condemn or belittle it now.

You're missing the point, Doc. I think we've all said all along that Nolan is unlikely to bring either character back.

We've simply said that he COULD do so without having to bend the believability scale very far. And that we wouldn't mind if he did. Which is true, whether you like it or not.

You understand that we're not saying we believe this is going to happen. Merely that it'd cool if it did. You understand the difference, right?

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Wow, just wow.

You're wasting more energy than Ricky Martin's girlfriend.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I keep seeing this counter-argument, as if to say it's blasphemous to even consider Nolan's film as realistic, which technically, it is.

But we're not talking technically. We can go through both movies and select unrealistic occurrences, but that's not really the point. In terms of superhero comic book movies, it is grounded in a realistic fashion. Does that mean that there's still a fantasy element to it? Of course, but to suggest that Ras or Two-Face may have survived doesn't stay consistent with the tone that's been set. And yes, a tone has been set where things like that won't happen.

I disagree, and I've already posted multiple examples why I think Ra's could easily return. I don't see why it's fine to have Harvey Dent have a completley unrealistic burn (he would have died, there's no debate there) that's also anatomicaly incorrect (a man can't move his eye or jaw without the muscles required for movement)

Or have Batman survive MULTIPLE falls that would have killed him in this series, but it's suddenly not okay for Ra's to survive a fall that would kill a normal man.

That's not very logical.

And yes, BB and TDK are realistic compared to past comic movies, but I would still say Road to Perdition or A History of Violence would take the prize of most "realistic."

 

[Mister H.]

Wow, just wow.

You're wasting more energy than Ricky Martin's girlfriend.

Kinda' what I thought. Came across as more obnoxious than funny.

 

[protoctista]

Ok, I really wasn't being very serious (having said that, the original poster did post the astounding 'Ras jumped' theory.... but I'll admit these things aren't easy to pick up for people on the internet; especially if English is your second language, so...


The way I see it a film is inherently fictitious, so analysing the 'realism' of it is pointless. Films operate in a series of visual cues in sequence. Each one gives us a message, and we are forced to connect them by their rapid chronology.

As my first post demonstrates, and as everyone is well aware; the visual cues lead us to believe that Ras is on the train. He makes no attempt to escape and doesn't have time.

But then what follows is such an astounding sequence of explosions! I mean, if you look back at that footage and picture in your mind that all those things are happening directly to Ras's trapped body... there is a kind of slapstick comedy. This for the audience acts as a RESOUNDING DEATH KNELL - break the sequence down into its most simple visual cues and they're saying DEAD, DEAD, DEAD, aannnd MORE DEAD, aannnn DEADDER. DEAD.

Nolan goes to great pains to ensure the total eradication of the character.



What's more, in the next film, this event is not revisited in any way. It is barely referred to (in fact, some people complained of the absence of monorails and narrows-imagery). EVERYTHING we have seen so far from the point that Batman says "but I dont have to save you" is that Ras, his ideals and his motives, are completely dead and buried. Gone. Exploded. Immolated. Slammed in to an exploding car, and then exploded some more.



This isn't a case of suggesting "oh X character could have survived that fall...", this is a case of completely re-writing and undermining everything that has occured so far in the sequence of Nolan's films. It would be a pantomime of counterfeit.

"imagination speculation" does not come into it.

 

[Infinity9999x]

This isn't a case of suggesting "oh X character could have survived that fall...", this is a case of completely re-writing and undermining everything that has occured so far in the sequence of Nolan's films. It would be a pantomime of counterfeit.

"imagination speculation" does not come into it.

I fail to see how returning Ra's to the picture would undermine anything. Returning Two-Face I could see the argument, but Ra's?

And completley re-writing? Again, I could see that argument for Two-Face, but what are we re-writing exactly here? All you say is, Ra's jumped. Simple fix. No re-writing necessary.

And no, Ra's was not addressed in TDK. Neither were Bruce's parents. It doesn't mean we should never address them again.

It's within the realms of possibility Ra's could return. Will he? Probably not. I'd bet against it to be perfectly honest. But again, to reiterate this ONE MORE TIME. This thread is purely speculative based on what little information Nolan has given us. That's it.

 

[protoctista]

"Ras Jumped"

Ras. ****ing. Jumped.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

"Ras Jumped"

Ras. ****ing. Jumped.

Why not? Batman does it all the time. And Ra's taught him.

Anyway, I'd love to see Two-Face come back. I don't believe for a second he will, but I really think killing him off was the big mistake Nolan made with these films. Not because I love Two-Face either, and not because I wanted him to have more than 10 minutes screen time, but because thematically he's the perfect antagonist for the final film. Batman has beaten the Joker and realised what he must become to save Gotham, and in Two-Face, not only is there an immense character study in his parellels and dark shadow/dual nature analogue to Batman, but there is the question of whether him kiling criminals will prove more effective than Bruce's own methods.

But like I said, doubt for a second he'll come back, even if, as others have said, film logic dictates it would be easy to do so, I just don't think Nolan would do it. It seems that Harvey Dent will be the trilogy's biggest missed opportunity, just behind Scarecrow's hallucinations, which are relatively minor in comparison.

 

[Mister H.]

I think a lot of folks believe Two-Face could be back, but are afraid of being drawn-and-quartered for suggesting it. I'm not. I think he might be back. There is no fan with all their ranting that can change my mind either, as there are probably fewer than a dozen people on the planet right now that really know. What's really funny is that the same fanboys who scoff at any suggestion that the Nolan films are realistic are the guys who will bash you and tell you how unreasonable it would be for Two-Face to reappear. And it doesn't do anything to diminish the themes of TDK, as we didn't know the plot and workings of the third film when TDK was released. Very few people would watch a third film with Two-Face, released four years after TDK, and say "Man, that really ruined The Dark Knight for me." That's just something that a select few fanboys would say.

Again, not predicting it, but I'm damn sure not ruling it out either.

 

[The Joker]

Well I'd rather have Two Face back than Ra's if one of them had to come back. I don't want another destroy the city in the name of justice plot. Two Face would have more to offer plot wise.

 

[baleheadbrasil]

Harvey Dent/Two Faces broke his neck...he is definately DEAD!
He won´t come back.
If Two Faces was alive, Batman would take all the blame of his crimes for what?
It woudn´t make sense.

 

[The Guard]

Welcome back Keyser.

I agree that Talia is better with Ra's. I'd dearly love to see Ra's back if she comes into play, just not at the expense of the larger mythology, if that makes any sense. Though if they could somehow bring Ra's back and do Rise of the Freaks and the evolution of the mob, as well as wrapping up Batman's story, that would be amazing. There are ways to do this, but I think it would have to be at Catwoman's expense.

Dead in the script and dead or not, while I don't think they went this route, Two-Face could easily have come back. It'd be cheap, but it might have been better than not reaching the character's potential.

As far as Ra's surviving...

Personally, I think Ra's is more likely to die if he jumps than if he somehow survived those crashes and those explosions.

And personally, the more unlikely it seems that Ra's Al Ghul survived, the more impact his return would have.

That's actually sort of the point of someone coming back from the dead.

That's it's seemingly impossible.

"I knew there was a possibility you survived, because there was no body found after the investigation" doesn't have as much impact as...

"How is this POSSIBLE?"

 

[Infinity9999x]

"Ras Jumped"

Ras. ****ing. Jumped.

Yep. Just like all the times Batman has jumped/fallen from hieghts that would have killed or horribly maimed him and walked away. Look at my previous posts if you need examples of pure impossibility in the Nolan movies.

Ra's jumping fits right in.

 

[Mister H.]

^ Exactly. That fall Batman and Rachel took where they landed on the hood of a car, on top of the engine block no less, would have made a real mess of any human beings but they were perfectly fine. That's about as far-fetched as Harvey coming back. Again, we never saw Dent with a toetag, or in a coffin, or even a funeral. We saw his portrait behind Gordon during a memorial. That's it.

 

[protoctista]

...he jumped.

Jumped?

 

[Infinity9999x]

...he jumped.

Jumped?

I see that the above posts seem to be confusing you. Let me try to simplify.

Movies=Not realistic.

Nolan Batman Movies=Not realistic.

Nolan Batman Moves have lots of things that happen that are not realistic.

Ra's jumping and living=Not realistic.

BUT

Nolan Batman movies=Not Realistic.
Ra's jumping=Not realistic.

And here's the kicker.

They're BOTH NOT REALISTIC!



That make it easier?

 

[protoctista]

No, but this has just solved all my problems:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaRwL2mVAww

 

[Infinity9999x]

No, but this has just solved all my problems:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaRwL2mVAww

Ironically, that's just about as realistic as Batman falling onto a car, holding Rachel, landing hard enough to smash the car's roof in, and not only LIVING (which, from that height, was HIGHLY improbable) but not breaking anything.

 

[The Joker]

With Rachel and Batman falling on the car, we're supposed to believe that he used the cape to break some of the fall.

 

[protoctista]

This is a pointless and infantile discussion. I want to respect your right to an opinion but... I just can't. In fact, I think it needs to be confiscated before you do some damage.




...Ras jumped. Haha!

You sir have forever turned the last 10 minutes of Batman Begins into a comedy for me.

 

[Vengeance of Bane]

Why are people talking about bringing back Ra's, when the ultimate badass would be a mauled Chechen, who now has the minion over all dogs.

 

[Infinity9999x]

With Rachel and Batman falling on the car, we're supposed to believe that he used the cape to break some of the fall.

Seeing as how the cape has been shown in every other instance in the movies to only work as a glider when Batman has both hands holding it out, I doubt it was working very well.

And at the height they fell from, a group of fabric hanging around on man's neck would not slow your fall enough to have you survive. It's about as logical as the QOS instance in where James Bond opens a parachute about 100 to 50 feet above the ground after falling thousands of feet and surviving.


Now, I don't have a problem with the scene in TDK. But my whole point is that it's NOT REALISTIC. It wouldn't be realistic for Ra's to jump off that train and live. But TDK and BB have loads of unrealistic scenes. So it would fit.

 

[protoctista]

Seeing as how the cape has been shown in every other instance in the movies to only work as a glider when Batman has both hands holding it out, I doubt it was working very well.

Sorry, I am on my way out, honestly. I just wanted to add:

Surely this is engaging with the enemy on their own terms? By your own definitions, you aren't even allowed to use this argument. Because everything's just non-reality, or non-sense. Everything's just whatever you want to believe happened. Like Ras jumping.