Discussion in 'Man of Steel' started by Thread Manager, Jun 23, 2013.
This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]459779[/split]
Well, now that the film has premiered it's time to get into the dirty little details. While many people love Man of Steel (especially on this board), there are many others whose expectations were not met, who have things they would change, or outright hate the film. This is not a place for a "You're wrong, I'm right!" argument to break out, rather, it's for those who feel unfulfilled by what they saw and and would ultimately change things given the chance.
Personally, I would give Man of Steel a 7/10 upon my first viewing. It's not a horrible film, but it definitely did not live up the advertising which had been created for it, nor did it live up to my hope of having a legitimately inventive and exciting beginning of a DC Shared Universe, unlike Iron Man. Here are some nits, picks, and complaints to get us started off.
-The opening shot of Kal El being born is gorgeous, and a genuinely fantastic way to begin this saga, especially since so much of it hinges on the idea of natural, not genetically manipulated birth. However, the Krypton scenes that follow border on nonsensical and way too rushed. If we had just had maybe one or two scenes prior to the council scene, establishing Jor El and General Zod as genuine allies with one tragic difference in world views, it would have given so much more weight to the Jor El's death, Zod's incarceration, and the destruction of Krypton. Ultimately it just feels like one rushed action setpiece to the next, setting up the very plotty MacGuffin in the Codex. Say what you want about the original Superman's version of Krypton, the silly outfits and fake looking sets, Donner gives it mournful pace and a wonderful, wise Jor El in Marlon Brando who really sells the importance of the moment. TELLING rather than SHOWING is generally a big complaint I have about David Goyer's script.
-Our first time spent with Clark. Again, the entire sequence on the boat is so, so rushed and could have been used to show us who Clark is at the beginning of the story, rather than an excuse for a setpiece. What if we had a couple scenes on the boat with Clark interacting with the crew, sharing stories, making jokes, just having a simple conversation? The human element felt very lost in Man of Steel, and scenes where we get a clearer sense of the man Clark has become would have been great peppered throughout his beginning journey. Also, the actual oil rig destruction itself was a let down as a setpiece. It was basically 30 seconds of Clark holding up something heavy. I'm not asking for a MASSIVE action scene here, but every bit of action should progress as a story, with a beginning, middle, and end. This was one long note without any variance.
-This is skipping ahead quite a bit, but the outfit reveal. It's presented to Clark without any explanation, and it comes after a massive info dump of exposition by Jor El. And then almost immediately after, he is suddenly in the suit and bouncing around. Clark has no reaction to seeing the suit, wearing it, anything. It's simply something he has to put on now, thanks Dad! It should be treated as mythic, like Jason acquiring the Golden Fleece. Even Green Lantern handled Hal Jordan getting the ring and "becoming" a costumed superhero better. Batman Begins had 20 minutes of buildup, with Bruce slowing building his suit and then the dock fight hidden in shadows, building up to his "I'm Batman" headbutt. The whole transition of Clark Kent to Superman wasn't handled particularly well, but I think missing this moment is endemic of the problems with the whole movie.
I have many more floating around in my head, but I thought I'd start off the conversation and maybe pepper them in as people post. Again, this is not meant as a hatefest, merely a place to vent frustrations. Better luck in 2015, Superman (aka, please give David Goyer something else besides Man of Steel 2 to do).
"My son was IN the bus, he saw what Clark did"
Um no, her son was drowning underwater and had to be saved by Clark so how did he see what he did?
Agree 100% on the suit thing.
I can understand most of these complaints. I often watch films and imagine little tweeks that would have made all the difference.
How did you find Superman Returns? Seems like these are flaws that were carried over from that picture in some ways. From "Suit reveal", the "conversational protagonist", inventive kryptonian elements..etc.
Thinking about it, I've never actually seen a suit reveal handled with as much energy as Lois&Clark.
I didn't love the suit reveal. Where'd it come from how did it fit Clark so well. Was someone from the House of El one of the people on the ship and that's why his suit was there?
Jor El explained it was the El's that led the expeditions to other worlds so I think that's a good explanation as to why there'd be a suit there. Also it was different to Jor El's and had a cape attached so maybe that was an earlier suit worn by El's in the past. As for the fit its alien maybe it adapts to your physiology, that's not so hard to but when you look at the tech Kryptonians use.
Also on Modern Myth Meda one if them came up with a great explanation that the suit would be a formal wear for them to wear when meeting with leaders if other worlds etc.
It's pretty sad that Chris Reeve did more with the first suited up scene in 15 seconds,than MOS did with 3 or 4 minutes.
If we're talking the suit, an explanation what the superman suit was doing on a ship buried for 20,000 years would have been nice.
Kal-El - 'Wow, a red and blue suit with a cape, how did it get here?'
Jor-El - *shrugs*
Jor-El - 'Wow the colour's really faded over 20,000 years. It used to be a lot brighter"
Jor-El - 'It will remove your facial hair, however.'
I thought it possible that the suit was fabricated when the "Jor-El" program took over the scout ship.
Just saw it a second time and my two main complaints stand
Clark's identity can easily be found out
The damn lens flares
That and I still HATE the scene where he gets revenge on the trucker. It was a weak attempt at humor. It added nothing to the actual story and is counterpoint to the scene where his father lectures him about fighting and even Kal's character. The scene weakens his choice to fight later.
EDIT: Found this by another write:
- Two fade shots: 1) instead of the awkward cut from Kal-El's ship to fisherman Clark, cut to black, show the "S" (they didn't do that anyway, did they?), hear some ocean sounds, then open/cut to the ship. 2) fade into black after Superman kills Zod, then fade out of black when we see the General, the Captain, and Superman destroying the spy drone. That way, you'll feel the passage of time after the final fight instead of looking to realize that.
- Put the flashbacks into the right place, not wrong places: 2 are not where they need to be, while the other 2 1/2 are. Solution? Remove the senses and bus flashbacks, and have them be part of the story Clark gives to Lois at the cemetery along with the death of Pa Kent scene. That way, he explains his story and why he remains hidden to Lois, and Lois gets her expose but also gets a realization and error in her ways. A double meaning, and better use of the first two flashbacks.
Pa Kent. Nearly no emotion in this scene. We should have seen the Kents actually find baby Clark. It would have had greater impact seeing the Kents as actual people. Instead, there was no connection. They were just some people in some flashbacks. Ma Kent, also no emotion. Should have had Clark get out of bed and see his parents before going to school or something at least. Smallville did it better.
I felt nothing for Clark when he was flying. I know it was supposed to be grand like "yeah finally! I'm so with him, this is fun!" except it fell flat. I mean it looked cool and all but...his "woohoo" I'm like, okay good for you.
Also the flashbacks should have all been done (in order, except for the last cape scene) before he got the fortress and put on the suit. Maybe that would have helped...
Perry White and all the idiots standing around watching the buildings fall on them. Jenny? Do we care that she's stuck? Did she even have a line before that?
The dialogue/delivery for Superman: "Do you think! You can threaten! My mother!" "You're a monster Zod, and I will stop you!" reminds me of "So you came to die with your city" "No, I came to stop you..."
Pacing was off. Like that scene where Superman destroys the drone.
Action was amazing, the visuals were good. I didn't care Metropolis was destroyed, I've been waiting to see Superman get crazy action scenes and that worked for me. Michael Shannon & Russell Crowe were especially good. Crowe reminded me of Ewan McGregor as Obi-Wan. Henry was decent. Amy was okay, not terrible.
Could have been a lot better, could have been worse. Felt rushed as opposed to Batman Begins pace. Not really looking forward to other DC characters being done like this. Should just bring back Bale and do a WF film.
PS I remember another thing. Why did the Kryptonians have time to banish (save) Zod and his gang (criminals) yet stood idle as they all died as the planet exploded?? Their last moments are to save the criminals and die themselves? O-kay...
How soon after they put Zod in the Phantom Zone did Krypton explode? Did they not know it would release them? Did they really just waste their time putting Zod and his people away only to explode the next minute, releasing Zod and friends?
PPS now that I think about it, Metropolis was destroyed yet Clark comes to work at the end of the movie at the DP as if nothing happened to the city? I don't remember but did it look damaged or did it look perfectly fine?
Can someone refresh my memory, but how was the Army able to acquire Kal-El's spacecraft again?
1) Did Superman bring it to their base? Did the army dig it up from the Kent's farmhouse?
Can't remember the scene where the Army gets a hold of it.
2) Also, when Fiora was looking for the Codex but didn't find it, did she hurl Kal-El's spacecraft out of the barn or did she just jump out of it?
My one main complaint about the film is that they chose a story that involved so much city destruction - it made it seem to similar to other blockbusters like Armageddon, Independence Day ... and even Supes Returns which had a similar scene of the villain's weapon causing buildings to fall down in Metropolis on Perry and Jimmy. I could live with all the rest of the flaws,
I don't mind the neck breaking at all - DC heros in the comics get far too many easy way-outs of not being tested in their no-kill rules IMO. Like being forced to kill but a "deus ex machina" stops them having to make the decision. I liked Supes and Bats being forced to make the choice - and he still has a no kill rule, it agonised him to break it.
1) There wasn't a scene, I just assume some lackey went and picked it up.
2) She just jumped and left the craft there.
I was terribly disappointed by the writing. The visuals, the casting, and the score were great, but the story and the characterization of Superman were WAY wrong. I would have Goyer and Snyder watch a few of DC's animated films to get a better sense of the character - especially the recent "Superman vs. The Elite". While I don't think SvtE is the best film I've ever seen, it "gets" the character of Superman correctly.
Also - I feel like Snyder's approach to the film was done with an interest in having explosive, finale-crescendo beats throughout the entire film. "Kill 'em with WOW," if you will. The problem is that if every other minute is "WOW", it lessens the impact of a "Super" man. How are we impressed by this guy flying if his dad rode a FOUR WINGED DRAGON?!?! How are we impressed by this guy's heat vision if Zod can master this stuff in less than 24 hours? How are we impressed by his ability to take out the Kryptonians if Lois Lane can shoot and kill three of them with an alien "head shot" gun?
So many lazy, indifferent moments that I started losing track of them...
^ I actually think Zack was influenced by the JLA shows, which showed buildings collapsing and shockwaves when Superman punches, and he has a lot of visual references to the source material (the all-star pose, the Alex Ross cape flap, etc). I don't think Goyer really cares about being pure to the spirit of the source material, despite having extensive knowledge of it.
PS The council didn't believe Jor-El or didn't know when it would happen.
PPS Undetermined amount of time has passed. Plus the Daily Planet could have been temporarily re-stationed.
no jesus parallels. jor-el and lara sent him here to not be a savior but to have a life. a life that he wouldn't have if he stayed on krypton. it's as simple as that.
how can clark get a job at the daily planet if he has no education beyond high school? i guess maybe he could've gone to college, and went on his journey afterward, but i doubt it. i would've had him on his journey to discover himself and to do that he went to school and became a journalist. why not be a journalist if his goal is to find answers??
pa kent dies that way? it would've been more meaningful if clark tried to save him and he had a heart attack or clark couldn't fully save him and he only uses his powers to help others after that moment.
the 9/11 imagery was pretty bad, but this is what we wanted after the snorefest that was superman returns. a superman that goes toe to toe with an equally powered being.
Kara Zor-El was the pilot of that scout ship - all this is explained in the prequel comic. If you haven't read it, that's understandable that you wouldn't get where the suit came from.
Also, when Clark inserts the House of El command key into that ship and 'fires it up," Jor-El's sentience then inhabits the craft and controls all the systems.
To honestly think for even one second that the ship wouldn't then be capable of providing a suit for Kal is just crazy. It wouldn't be a "war suit" like the other suits, it wouldn't necessarily be designed as battle armor either - Jor-El has already made it abundantly clear as we all know that Kal is nearly invulnerable here on Earth under our younger yellow sun.
Having him wear suits similar to the ones Zod and his cohorts wear (because they were traveling in space at times when they're on other alien worlds inspecting the old colonial outposts) would be somewhat ridiculous. It would also be unreasonable to think that they never ever found themselves under another yellow sun someplace out there beyond our heavens, and had the same reaction by gaining some strength and other abilities.
House of El command key inserted into a scout ship sent out by House of El members and even piloted by a member of the House of El = Kal gets his suit as expected.
It's not that tough to understand (but you gotta read the prequel comic to get it, that much is certain).
I assume they will be giving copies of this comic away free outside the theater, since it's vital to following the movie
(apologies, I don't normally post sarcastic eye rolls, but that was
asking for a snark.)
Actually, it's a Walmart exclusive as I understand it.
Further clarification: it was a digital download provided by a code with the purchase of one of those Walmart exclusive 7PM showings on June 13th, actually.