TMOS Review & Speculation Thread (Spoilers) - Part 4

[misslane38]

I didn't have any issue with the primary portrayal of Kryptonian society. I thought the free will vs eugenics aspect was interesting as well. My problems with the krypton could've been fixed easily with a line from the council not believing Jor-El.'s conclusions. And reducing sub plots. A bit far too many things going on-- krypton's core, Zod's coup, Jor-El stealing the Codex etc. Which is why so much of MOS was just expository dialogue from scene to scene from either Russell Crowe or Michael Shannon explaining things.

It's the history -- rise and fall -- of an entire civilization. To echo the beaver from The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe (a fantasy story that, along with Lord of the Rings, also has what you would probably consider a lot "going on"), "It's the world dear, did you expect it to be small?" The problem with the Council is their dithering. In a society that has eroded free will and choice, they are incapable of making decisions. It's not about belief. People know or believe a lot of things in life, like how eating healthy and exercising can extend one's life, but people can be reluctant to change or stall in making decisions.

This version of the Superman mythology is exploring these themes and doing so in a relatively new way, and that's okay. YMMV.

 

[Wolfgangamadeus]

It's futile to sentence a prisoner when the planet won't exist. That's what I meant in my earlier post.

 

[misslane38]

It's futile to sentence a prisoner when the planet won't exist. That's what I meant in my earlier post.

No, it's not, at least not for the Council that is so rigid in its thinking that following law and tradition is the only thing it knows how to do. It's the only thing it has left. The Council is peopled with individuals bred to carry out and execute the law, so they will carry out their prime directive even to the very end of all things. Because that is their purpose.

 

[Wolfgangamadeus]

That's the bit I would've liked to have explained more of. Because it wasn't really clear to all to a lot of people. I'm still iffy about the reasoning--not sure if I completely buy it still but it's something.

 

[GothamBat]

No, it's not, at least not for the Council that is so rigid in its thinking that following law and tradition is the only thing it knows how to do. It's the only thing it has left. The Council is peopled with individuals bred to carry out and execute the law, so they will carry out their prime directive even to the very end of all things. Because that is their purpose.

plus, even if it's not super apparent, a decent amount of time did pass between Zod's trial and Krypton's destruction (I'm pretty sure)

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

plus, even if it's not super apparent, a decent amount of time did pass between Zod's trial and Krypton's destruction (I'm pretty sure)

I'm sure as well but I will admit the movie made it seem like Lara went home changed and the apocalypse happened.
I also think that some time passed between Zod's arrest and being sent to PZ.

 

[BH/HHH]

I'm sure as well but I will admit the movie made it seem like Lara went home changed and the apocalypse happened.
I also think that some time passed between Zod's arrest and being sent to PZ.

Maybe that's one negative I'll say against the film. Sometimes the editing with the cuts makes it seem like hardly anytime passes. I think this was most evident in the scene after he kills Zod. That should have had been a fade to black and then the next scene IMO.

 

[Steamteck]

Thank you dude^^ that was a really nice answer. Very coherently presented. Which the movie didn't really do IMO.

I disagree it seemed clear to me bur I'm glad that cleared it up.

 

[DeadStroke]

Man of Steel > Logan

 

[Ivan Drago]

Man of Steel > Logan

Lol.

 

[misslane38]

MissLane, please. The general description mentions the exchange, then I point out visual details. The larger point stands. Is my description not comprehensively detailed? Sure. My apologies at the use of a language I do not speak in my daily life. Feel free to nitpick. But l consider you more than able to see the larger point I make as I enjoy and respect your opinions.

Your description also used the word "immediately," and I don't know how else I am supposed to interpret the meaning of that word since it does not apply to the scene in any way.

If you think the exchange was lengthy and meaningful enough for everyone because a couple more phrases and looks were involved while standing awkwardly in the cemetery after weeks of searching for this guy, you may be correct and I be mistaken and I misrepresented my point. I respect your argument and my apologies again because it was not my intent to minimize the elements even if I involuntarily did so. But I think it was not so for everyone, that greater breathing space was sometimes need, and that is the larger point.

The "breathing space" you suggested was needed to achieve a goal that was not intended for the scene to achieve.

Because it is indicative of a larger style/narrative approach.

Maybe, but I don't think the scene you referenced is a good example.

And that build up to the larger whole is what I think would have been better served by some extra bits as I mentioned. It is a matter of narrative economy as I said, AND I said, it DID work for me. But for everyone?

The "extra bits" you mentioned were suggested as a means of adding to Lois and Clark's emotional connection, which wasn't the goal of the scene either from character, plot, or emotional standpoint.

misslane is there even a single criticism of the snyder dc films that you're willing to accept as valid?

Sure, they just don't get brought up a lot. I think the denouement in Man of Steel is rushed. The amount of destruction in the Metropolis battle is so over-the-top that it became nauseating and desensitizing. The time could have been better spent on showing Superman helping civilians in the aftermath. Let's see, I thought most of the cuts in the TC that made their way into the UC of BvS were sorely missed. The Knightmare sequence in BvS is too long and the metahuman file attachment scene with Wonder Woman is out of place. It should have been made more clear that Lois's investigation contributed to Lex's imprisonment. It's implied, but it's not clear. There are more, but those are the ones that I could recall from the top of my head.

My idea is that AFTER the flashback, some more of Lois-Clark would have been better for the gradual build up of their relationship. And it may have nicely segued to showing how the crucial relationship in his life now shifts to Lois instead.

I disagree. That scene isn't about a relationship between Lois and Clark in either a friend sense or a romantic sense. It is a relationship between a journalist and her subject. Developing that relationship any deeper would have muddied Lois's decision not to publish or reveal her source to the military. She would be doing it for personal reasons more than professional ones. It is important that Lois makes the choice to keep Clark's secret because it's the right thing to do not because she's letting personal feelings and attachments affect her judgment. Not everyone who meets "The Superman" is going to have to same one-on-one intimate contact with the man behind the suit, so even from a symbolic level, if Lois serves to represent humanity's capacity to take a leap of faith on Superman, then some emotional distance is necessary before she makes her choice to kill the story.

 

[idiot09]

Sure, they just don't get brought up a lot. I think the denouement in Man of Steel is rushed. The amount of destruction in the Metropolis battle is so over-the-top that it became nauseating and desensitizing. The time could have been better spent on showing Superman helping civilians in the aftermath. Let's see, I thought most of the cuts in the TC that made their way into the UC of BvS were sorely missed. The Knightmare sequence in BvS is too long and the metahuman file attachment scene with Wonder Woman is out of place. It should have been made more clear that Lois's investigation contributed to Lex's imprisonment. It's implied, but it's not clear. There are more, but those are the ones that I could recall from the top of my head.

I agree with all of them.

 

[jfurioso]

Your description also used the word "immediately," and I don't know how else I am supposed to interpret the meaning of that word since it does not apply to the scene in any way.

It did indeed use that word and it was indeed my mistake.

The "breathing space" you suggested was needed to achieve a goal that was not intended for the scene to achieve.

But I think it could have, alongside the ones you mention, and for a larger effect of characterization. Maybe you are right that it was unnecessary, perhaps the meeting at the military interrogation room was enough, but I think at that point it was Lois meeting Superman, more than meeting and developing a bond with Clark, though of course, to her, they are one and the same. So I dunno. I did think afterwards about how the rest of their conversation would have developed, which for me, means there were things I was left pondering. That may be a good thing for some, not for others.

Maybe, but I don't think the scene you referenced is a good example.

Perhaps. However, we have had a good stretch of the movie of Lois looking for Clark and unraveling his story, and we get such an abridged scene of her finding the mystery man again, that I think it could have been given more time, space and significance, aside from all the elements you mention with which I do agree.

I disagree. That scene isn't about a relationship between Lois and Clark in either a friend sense or a romantic sense. It is a relationship between a journalist and her subject. Developing that relationship any deeper would have muddied Lois's decision not to publish or reveal her source to the military.

Yes. I see that point. And which honestly, I never even thought about. Very good point.
But do you really think some space/time devoted to their interaction as human beings, as journalist and subject indeed, without any romantic hints at that stage, would have that seriously undermined that? After all the build up to their encounter? To the secret of the Mystery Man who saved her and many others?
And is this effect of exalting the impartiality of her decision that much more important so that it means downplaying the sense that Clark is finally beginning to find someone he can trust in the world aside from his parents? THAT was the thing that struck me as very important in this version of Lois/Clark, that after a life of relative alienation, this one person earned his trust and that opened him to her in some many other ways.
Maybe I am over-romanticizing this.

 

[misslane38]

But do you really think some space/time devoted to their interaction as human beings, as journalist and subject indeed, without any romantic hints at that stage, would have that seriously undermined that? After all the build up to their encounter? To the secret of the Mystery Man who saved her and many others?

Yes, I do think implying anything deeper at that stage could be interpreted as problematic. But I agree with your overall assessment that less action-driven scenes between Lois and Clark would have provided breathing room and developed their relationship. Another Lois and Clark scene placed somewhere else may have been more effective. I don't know.

And is this effect of exalting the impartiality of her decision that much more important so that it means downplaying the sense that Clark is finally beginning to find someone he can trust in the world aside from his parents? THAT was the thing that struck me as very important in this version of Lois/Clark, that after a life of relative alienation, this one person earned his trust and that opened him to her in some many other ways.

I just don't think Clark can trust Lois until she makes her decision, and I like that Snyder doesn't end the scene with an answer from Lois. I like that what she chooses is left ambiguous until her scene with Perry. I felt that palpable bond of trust without much fanfare or dialogue later when Lois and Clark held hands after he told her he appreciated her believing in him. That scene killed me with its simplicity and heart. Maybe it's just a personal preference.

Maybe I am over-romanticizing this.

Not a chance. I'm always game for more romance, especially from Lois and Clark.