What are your favorite moments/figures in history?

[Thundercrack85]

Where do you live, if you don't mind me asking? I'm guessing it's not Germany, where that's illegal.

Probably, be kind of weird if fellow German kids in Germany were following him around giving him mock Nazi salutes for being German.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I've always found that completely unfair,that the Germans have always bore the brunt of the crimes committed during the war. Now,the Nazis were far from innocent,but what about Japan? Yes,there were trials for Japanese war criminals,but as you've stated,the West(or the Allies)just glanced over this. Despite Japan committing crimes that would make Satan blush. Italy's Fascist leaders,as far I know,never really went on trial either. Although it seems there was more vigilante justice in that case. And my beef is especially with Russia. They helped start the war by invading Poland,and also attacked Finland as well as other Eastern nations. Plus,as we all know Stalin killed millions more than Hitler ever did in his own camps. The British and American leaders(more FDR than anyone else)let alot of Russia's crimes go unpunished just to defeat Germany. The Allies liberated countries,the Russians conquered them. But even with the British/United States there were several war crimes. The bombing of Dresden and the atomic bombs come to mind.

Oh I'd say there is plenty of blame to go around. The issue is though that the Germans and Russians have let bygones be bygones, beyond the occasional Nazi joke.

China, and the Koreas on the other hand, are still pissed. And really, the anger only seems to be growing. Every time a Japanese prime minister visits the Yaskuni shrine (a war memorial which includes convicted war criminals), East Asia breaks out into mass anti-Japanese protests.

The Chinese don't forget, and it's hard to forgive when Japan keeps trying to white wash history.

 

[Pink Ranger]

That's the biggest problem right there with Japan's image across Asia. If they actually accepted the responsibility of what their nation did during World War II the way Germany has, Japan would be much better liked in the region IMO.

However, even modern day Japan has some notoriously racist elements attached to it so I don't see them accepting responsibility for quite some time.

What I find troubling is not just that the government of Japan refuses to acknowledge its monstrous atrocities during WW2, I don't even sense that there is any cultural recognition of these atrocities among the Japanese people in general.

In every country across the world, there is a counter-cultural element that revises history and holds the powers to be to account. In the United States, even today there are loud and vocal protesters who (rightly or wrongly) believe the war on terror is wrong and that George Bush is a war criminal. Im China, artists, writers and filmmakers have gone to prison for producing works that criticize the past atrocities of the communists.

I sense none of that in Japan. Now, I am not an expert in Japan, so someone please, please correct me if I'm wrong (I really want to be wrong about this) but all the cultural expressions with a WW2-related theme are almost universally depicting Japan as the victim of WW2. And from one of the most libertarian countries in the world no less, where if you wanted to criticize the government you can.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Oh I'd say there is plenty of blame to go around. The issue is though that the Germans and Russians have let bygones be bygones, beyond the occasional Nazi joke.

China, and the Koreas on the other hand, are still pissed. And really, the anger only seems to be growing. Every time a Japanese prime minister visits the Yaskuni shrine (a war memorial which includes convicted war criminals), East Asia breaks out into mass anti-Japanese protests.

The Chinese don't forget, and it's hard to forgive when Japan keeps trying to white wash history.

Korea, I'd say, has two major beefs these days. First, the "comfort women" issue; Japan won't admit that it forced young Korean girls into prostitution to service their soldiers during Korea's occupation. They claim they volunteered, which is ridiculous.
The second issue is the dispute over Liancourt Rocks, which is similar to Japan's dispute over another island with China as well. Korea, which calls the island Dokdo, points out that the island has been listed on Korean maps for centuries. But Japan stubbornly refuses to renounce ownership of the island since the US government didn't make them return it after the end of Korean occupation in 1945. It's kinda a touchy issue considering Japan once brutally occupied their country and now they're still holding on to a very small part of it. Plus, the island is very important for the fishing waters around it.

Personally, I like Japan. I've visited a bunch of times, the people are super friendly, the food is great and there's many beautiful sights. But I can also understand why some people would hate them as well. They bring it on themselves with the kind of rightwing governments they elect.

 

[OstrichsRevenge]

Where do you live, if you don't mind me asking? I'm guessing it's not Germany, where that's illegal.

Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. The high school I went to was all Caucasian and 300 kids went to the school. So they weren't exactly sensitive to other people's feelings.

 

[Pink Ranger]

Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. The high school I went to was all Caucasian and 300 kids went to the school. So they weren't exactly sensitive to other people's feelings.

Thank goodness. In Canada, the threshold for hate crimes is low. Anybody who tries to Nazi salute you, use Canadian bureaucracy to make their lives hell.

 

[Pink Ranger]

Back to the Japan issue, it is **** like this that makes me pissed off at that country. You don't see Germans dressing up like Nazis and raising the Swastika flag, but Japan's okay with it.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/photos/japan-remembers-wwii-surrender-slideshow/

 

[Feenix]

Back to the Japan issue, it is **** like this that makes me pissed off at that country. You don't see Germans dressing up like Nazis and raising the Swastika flag, but Japan's okay with it.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/photos/japan-remembers-wwii-surrender-slideshow/

The Germans made it illegal to do anything of that sort. They also have very lax immigration policies out of fear that people will say they're doing the same thing again like they did to the Jews. Of course, this is nonsensical and the Germans should be cracking down on immigration.

As for the Japanese, it kind of seems like a jab to the world. They "celebrate" the day of their surrender by wearing the uniforms of the soldiers that had a reputation for brutality and fanaticism. It's not very subtle.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Why should Germany crack down on immigration?

Is the country over-populated?

 

[Feenix]

Why should Germany crack down on immigration?

Is the country over-populated?

They're having issues with people coming in from different countries and not learning the language or respecting others in their communities (my family lives all over Germany and have told me this). Not to mention that there have been Islamic extremists that have made their way into the country and are causing problems.

The second largest Turkish population (next to Istanbul) is in Germany. It's easier for them to get citizenship than it is for a former German, now Canadian whose entire family was born and raised in Germany. I'm not saying that's necessarily a problem, but a lot of the schools in Germany now have to hold back their students because the kids in class who are foreign aren't learning German at home, so they can't speak the language and are behind in school.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Why should Germany crack down on immigration?

Is the country over-populated?

Many fear that the country is going to lose its identity. Immigrants are out populating (is that a word?) the natives. Plus a lot of immigrants refuse to assimilate, which causes various political conflicts.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Well according to wiki, only 20 percent of Germany is first or second generation immigrants.

If 80 percent of your population is native born you're not in much danger of losing your nation's cultural identity.

 

[Feenix]

Well according to wiki, only 20 percent of Germany is first or second generation immigrants.

If 80 percent of your population is native born you're not in much danger of losing your nation's cultural identity.

Also from Wikipedia:

"The United Nations Population Fund lists Germany as host to the third-highest number of international migrants worldwide."

It's more the rate that is alarming. 2011 saw the highest rate of immigration in more than 15 years. It's one thing to go to another country to assimilate into their culture and another thing entirely to avoid learning the language and having other kids be held back in school because of it.

 

[Thundercrack85]

It's 80% German today, but then you look at German birthrates (they're actually negative), and you look at immigrant birthrates, and you look 50 years into the future. You can see why it makes some nationalists nervous.

Though I imagine it'll even out, and the immigrants will gradually assimilate, despite current... tensions.

It's a hot button issue in most European countries. Just look at Belgium or the Netherlands. Or that year when Mohammed was the most popular baby name in England.

Europeans don't exactly share the American view on multiculturalism, protestations to the contrary aside.

 

[Feenix]

It's 80% German today, but then you look at German birthrates (they're actually negative), and you look at immigrant birthrates, and you look 50 years into the future. You can see why it makes some nationalists nervous.

Though I imagine it'll even out, and the immigrants will gradually assimilate, despite current... tensions.

It's a hot button issue in most European countries. Just look at Belgium or the Netherlands. Or that year when Mohammed was the most popular baby name in England.

Europeans don't exactly share the American view on multiculturalism, protestations to the contrary aside.

I think the immigrants in European countries right now are treated better than the immigrants in the States. That, or they're much better at hiding their displeasure. Some Americans are quite outspoken about their dissatisfaction with immigrants.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well, Europeans are rather keenly aware of their past... actions, and racism.

None more so than Germany.

Americans are always nasty to immigrants. The Protestant English were nasty to the Catholic English. The English Americans were nasty to the Germans, who in turn were nasty to the Irish, who in turn were nasty to the Italians... And they all hated the Chinese and Jews.

It's an American tradition to be ***** to the latest immigrants.

It's a nation of immigrant-loathing immigrants.

 

[Feenix]

Well, Europeans are rather keenly aware of their past... actions, and racism.

None more so than Germany.

Americans are always nasty to immigrants. The Protestant English were nasty to the Catholic English. The English Americans were nasty to the Germans, who in turn were nasty to the Irish, who in turn were nasty to the Italians... And they all hated the Chinese and Jews.

It's an American tradition to be ***** to the latest immigrants.

It's a nation of immigrant-loathing immigrants.

^This

 

[Hobgoblin]

Well, Europeans are rather keenly aware of their past... actions, and racism.

None more so than Germany.

Americans are always nasty to immigrants. The Protestant English were nasty to the Catholic English. The English Americans were nasty to the Germans, who in turn were nasty to the Irish, who in turn were nasty to the Italians... And they all hated the Chinese and Jews.

It's an American tradition to be ***** to the latest immigrants.

It's a nation of immigrant-loathing immigrants.

That is the strange thing about people who currently rail against immigrants. They always say that our culture is in danger of changing from the culture of the Founders. I want to tell them about all the times that our culture has already changed over the past 238+ years.

 

[Thundercrack85]

The most outspoken opponents of immigration in America are rather obviously racists. For some reason they take offense to that label though.

 

[Kelly]

This is a very interesting study (one of very few actually) done in 2008...

Immigration and the Imagined Community in Europe and the United States

The results suggest first that countries are relatively evenly distributed between a tendency to oppose and a tendency to support religious homogeneity. However, the majority of countries tend to support the idea of cultural homogeneity; on average, majorities in nineteen of these twenty-one countries agree that ‘It is better for a country if almost everyone shares the same customs and traditions’. Countries from Eastern and Southern Europe, especially the Czech Republic, Poland, Portugal and Greece, had the highest apparent level of support for homogeneity.
By contrast, the United States appears distinct in its greater tolerance of cultural and religious diversity.With regard to religious homogeneity, the United States and France are more opposed to this ideal than nearly every other country in the sample.
With regard to cultural homogeneity, the United States is less supportive than every European country in the sample. It appears that the long history of ethnic and religious diversity in the United States has produced a distinctive, and more favorable, orientation toward cultural heterogeneity.
However, as we show below, in the United States as elsewhere, those less accepting of cultural diversity tend to be more opposed to immigration.

 

[Thundercrack85]

But America doesn't have homogeneity. I mean, even the white Americans who want to keep the other groups out, fight amongst themselves when said other groups aren't present. There's no such thing as an ethnic America. Well, there are Native Americans, yet ironically, that's not what people mean when the say American.

WASPs are now a fairly small minority, next to Americans of German, Irish, Italian, and whatever else descent.

 

[Kelly]

But America doesn't have homogeneity. I mean, even the white Americans who want to keep the other groups out, fight amongst themselves when said other groups aren't present. There's no such thing as an ethnic America. Well, there are Native Americans, yet ironically, that's not what people mean when the say American.

WASPs are now a fairly small minority, next to Americans of German, Irish, Italian, and whatever else descent.

I have often wondered why we say..."One Nation under God...." we are not a nation in the actual meaning of the word we are actually a "state". Then I heard (and read) a nation described in this way....

People whose common identity creates a psychological bond and a political community. Their political identity usually comprises such characteristics as a common language, culture, ethnicity, and history. More than one nation may comprise a state, but the terms nation, state, and country are often used interchangeably. A nation-state is a state populated primarily by the people of one nationality.

So though we do not have a common culture and ethnicity, we do have what many would call a common identity so that is where that term was coined as far as our Pledge of Allegiance.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I don't blame some nations for wanting homogeneity.

The Japanese, for example, have a very distinct culture and history.

But alot of the time when white nationalist say they want homogeneity they're not asking to preserve cultural identity but only white skin which is really a meaningless and arbitrary form of homogeneity.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Hmm, I think the semantics of that are lost on most. But homogeneity in and of itself is debatable. I mean look at England. Putting aside "recent" immigrants (i.e. those from former British colonies), English people really don't have homogeneity either. You have Saxons, Angles, Normans, Danes, and various other groups (not to mention their neighbors). To this day, people with Norman last names tend to be better off than their Anglo-Saxon countrymen. Yet we see English as such a time-tested identity, when it really isn't.

Personally I think the pledge is silly, and should be retired, like the Bellamy Salute. Or at the very least get rid of the under God part, which was added in the 1950's, if we want to give it any legitimacy.

 

[chamber-music]

That is the strange thing about people who currently rail against immigrants. They always say that our culture is in danger of changing from the culture of the Founders. I want to tell them about all the times that our culture has already changed over the past 238+ years.

I agree
culture is an ever evolving thing. Traditions come or go evolve into something else. You cannot pull a pol pot and turn civilization back to year zero.

I think some of these people who complain are either afraid of change or ignorant.

I firmly of the belief the human race has not 'peaked' yet and that are best days are not behind us.